LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? My understanding of no inherent 'self' is that there is no personal/ separate doer of thoughts and therefore actions controlling anything.
What are you looking for at LU? "I" have had a direct pointing session and it revealed the no-mind reality that is before the imagined "me". "I" am hoping to go further than a glimpse. Having searched for a place to get help with this LU looks to be the best way.
What do you expect from a guided conversation? "I" expect that a guided conversation would reveal the impersonal nature of awareness that is veiled by the imagined "me". Having already glimpsed this there is a curiosity and desire to fully realise no-self.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? "I" have done minimal practices of meditation and self inquiry due to the imagined self getting frustrated. Several books and countless hours of YouTube led me to direct pointing of which there has been some success
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11
Direct pointing
Re: Direct pointing
Hi Roberto. Are you still looking for a guide?
Re: Direct pointing
Hi Canfora, yes I am still looking for a guide 👍
Re: Direct pointing
Good! Thank you for your introduction and welcome to the LU forum!
I can be your guide if that's okay with you.
You mention a direct pointing session.
What do you think direct pointing is?
How would you direct point to something?
Looking forward for your reply.
I can be your guide if that's okay with you.
You mention a direct pointing session.
What do you think direct pointing is?
How would you direct point to something?
Looking forward for your reply.
Re: Direct pointing
Hi Canfora, I am very happy to have you guide me 😁Good! Thank you for your introduction and welcome to the LU forum!
I can be your guide if that's okay with you.
You mention a direct pointing session.
What do you think direct pointing is?
How would you direct point to something?
Looking forward for your reply.
I had a direct pointing session with a woman called Trina Dawn, she has a website and YouTube channel, the direct pointing session brought me into the present moment by looking at what is true in my experience without past and future and without using language to label. The direct pointing revealed a state of no mind with the internal self referential narrative vanished leaving awareness of experience and that awareness was impersonal just like the five senses are impersonal. Over the following 24 hours the minds labelling and storytelling creeped back in and everything seemed personal again.
It feels difficult to direct point to something without using labels and the mind
Re: Direct pointing
Hi Roberto,
Happy to be your guide!
Our main goal is to look to what is already in your immediate, direct experience.
Which can only happen now. And here.
Our goal is to see if you can find a long-lasting, independent, separate entity. A me, a self.
If I tell you there is no self at all how do you feel? Does fear appear? Or other emotion? Do you feel resistance? Disbelief? Sadness? Or does the idea make you feel good, curious, hopeful? Or you don't feel nothing special?
Spend some time noticing what comes up when you think there is no self at all and let me know what shows up.
Take care, C
Happy to be your guide!
Yes, very true.It feels difficult to direct point to something without using labels and the mind
I think I understand what you're saying. Experiences came and go. What we are doing here is very unlikely to make you experience a constant state of experience. Don't focus in states or special experiences. And thinking isn't a problem. Thoughts, states of mind, also came and go. We aren't trying to get rid of thoughts or control them or even understand them.The direct pointing revealed a state of no mind with the internal self referential narrative vanished leaving awareness of experience and that awareness was impersonal just like the five senses are impersonal. Over the following 24 hours the minds labelling and storytelling creeped back in and everything seemed personal again.
Absolutely. Yes. That's it. That's what we are using as a tool. Simple observation of what is going on here, right now,the direct pointing session brought me into the present moment by looking at what is true in my experience without past and future and without using language to label.
Our main goal is to look to what is already in your immediate, direct experience.
Which can only happen now. And here.
Our goal is to see if you can find a long-lasting, independent, separate entity. A me, a self.
If I tell you there is no self at all how do you feel? Does fear appear? Or other emotion? Do you feel resistance? Disbelief? Sadness? Or does the idea make you feel good, curious, hopeful? Or you don't feel nothing special?
Spend some time noticing what comes up when you think there is no self at all and let me know what shows up.
Take care, C
Re: Direct pointing
Hi C,
When I look for a long lasting, independent, separate entity. A me, a self. I can't find a self.
The mind tends to dominate the looking which seems to reinforce the sense of a false self. I very often notice the mind labelling experiences with conditioned beliefs via thoughts that trigger emotions that trigger more thoughts. The noticing of this is mostly delayed and it seems that the false self is the one that is doing the noticing. I have had a few moments usually upon waking from sleeping and before the body has moved when there is a sense of impersonal awareness but then a body sensation or thought starts the story telling, I must brush my teeth, I must get a shower, thinking of the day ahead and this seems to dominate the day.
How do "I" feel about there being no self ? On a conceptual level it is very clear that a self doesn't exist and that makes "ME" curious and hopeful of illusion being seen through.
Roberto
When I look for a long lasting, independent, separate entity. A me, a self. I can't find a self.
The mind tends to dominate the looking which seems to reinforce the sense of a false self. I very often notice the mind labelling experiences with conditioned beliefs via thoughts that trigger emotions that trigger more thoughts. The noticing of this is mostly delayed and it seems that the false self is the one that is doing the noticing. I have had a few moments usually upon waking from sleeping and before the body has moved when there is a sense of impersonal awareness but then a body sensation or thought starts the story telling, I must brush my teeth, I must get a shower, thinking of the day ahead and this seems to dominate the day.
How do "I" feel about there being no self ? On a conceptual level it is very clear that a self doesn't exist and that makes "ME" curious and hopeful of illusion being seen through.
Roberto
Re: Direct pointing
Hi Roberto,
It seems to me that you are saying you can't see a self but that's just conceptual. Would you say this is what seems to be going on?
It also seems to me you have some expectations about what should happen if you see clearly there is no self. Expectations can get in the way of seeing and it's important to be aware of them to check if they are more than wishful thinking. I will try to make you notice your expectations if/when they come up, if it seems to me that you need to look at them. Example of a expectation that you may have - experiencing a different experience than the one you are experiencing:
Do you expect this to change? If a self isn't real then all this is happening without a self that is experiencing and has control over experience. How could it be any different?
I'm not saying that change isn't going to happen. What I'm trying to say is that there isn't a real self in reality (whatever that is) that can change to meet its own expectations.
So.... what are you expecting to happen when you see there is no self? Will you be free of all human experience? Will you be enlightened? Will you stop thinking unpleasant thouoghts and feeling unpleasant sensations? How do you think you and your life will change?
Take care!
Good. If strong negative emotions or negative thoughts start appearing around doing these inquiries let me know, so we can deal with them.On a conceptual level it is very clear that a self doesn't exist and that makes "ME" curious and hopeful of illusion being seen through.
It seems to me that you are saying you can't see a self but that's just conceptual. Would you say this is what seems to be going on?
It also seems to me you have some expectations about what should happen if you see clearly there is no self. Expectations can get in the way of seeing and it's important to be aware of them to check if they are more than wishful thinking. I will try to make you notice your expectations if/when they come up, if it seems to me that you need to look at them. Example of a expectation that you may have - experiencing a different experience than the one you are experiencing:
I would say this is also my experience. There are all these thoughts and sensations that seem to dominate the day, almost since the moment I wake up. That's how it seems to be. The question is, if there is no self, why and how would this be any different? You may think it should be different, but what is going on is what it is.I have had a few moments usually upon waking from sleeping and before the body has moved when there is a sense of impersonal awareness but then a body sensation or thought starts the story telling, I must brush my teeth, I must get a shower, thinking of the day ahead and this seems to dominate the day.
Do you expect this to change? If a self isn't real then all this is happening without a self that is experiencing and has control over experience. How could it be any different?
I'm not saying that change isn't going to happen. What I'm trying to say is that there isn't a real self in reality (whatever that is) that can change to meet its own expectations.
So.... what are you expecting to happen when you see there is no self? Will you be free of all human experience? Will you be enlightened? Will you stop thinking unpleasant thouoghts and feeling unpleasant sensations? How do you think you and your life will change?
Take care!
Re: Direct pointing
Hi Roberto,
Good. If strong negative emotions or negative thoughts start appearing around doing these inquiries let me know, so we can deal with them.On a conceptual level it is very clear that a self doesn't exist and that makes "ME" curious and hopeful of illusion being seen through.
It seems to me that you are saying you can't see a self but that's just conceptual. Would you say this is what seems to be going on?
Hi again C,
When I look for a self I can't pinpoint a position that a self exists in.
I am 53 years old and have always assumed I am the mind and body with the sense of being behind the eyes. I started looking more closely at this a couple of years ago and it seems very clear that there is seeing, hearing, sensations, thoughts etc that collectively combined with my name, age, job cause a misidentification.
It also seems to me you have some expectations about what should happen if you see clearly there is no self. Expectations can get in the way of seeing and it's important to be aware of them to check if they are more than wishful thinking. I will try to make you notice your expectations if/when they come up, if it seems to me that you need to look at them. Example of a expectation that you may have - experiencing a different experience than the one you are experiencing:
I expect all experiences to be the same as always, visually, sounds, sensations etcI would say this is also my experience. There are all these thoughts and sensations that seem to dominate the day, almost since the moment I wake up. That's how it seems to be. The question is, if there is no self, why and how would this be any different? You may think it should be different, but what is going on is what it isI have had a few moments usually upon waking from sleeping and before the body has moved when there is a sense of impersonal awareness but then a body sensation or thought starts the story telling, I must brush my teeth, I must get a shower, thinking of the day ahead and this seems to dominate the day.
Do you expect this to change? If a self isn't real then all this is happening without a self that is experiencing and has control over experience. How could it be any different?
I guess I expect there would be less attachment or aversion to what is happening, it very much feels like the self tries to control the stimulus coming from the senses and thoughts and I expect that might reduce.
I'm not saying that change isn't going to happen. What I'm trying to say is that there isn't a real self in reality (whatever that is) that can change to meet its own expectations.
So.... what are you expecting to happen when you see there is no self? Will you be free of all human experience? Will you be enlightened? Will you stop thinking unpleasant thouoghts and feeling unpleasant sensations? How do you think you and your life will change?
I expect there might be...
Less psychological tension due to things could feel more effortless
Thoughts might lose some authority leading to reduced defensiveness
More immediacy with emotions feeling more raw but less sticky
More flexibility in how to respond to situations
Less social judgment and more of a sense of ease
Take care!
Re: Direct pointing
Hi C,
I messed up my reply to you so I'm going to rewrite here.
It seems to me that you are saying you can't see a self but that's just conceptual. Would you say this is what seems to be going on?
When I look for a self I can't pinpoint a position that a self exists in.
I am 53 years old and have always assumed I am the mind and body with the sense of being behind the eyes. I started looking more closely at this a couple of years ago and it seems very clear that there is seeing, hearing, sensations, thoughts etc that collectively combined with my name, age, job cause a misidentification. This misidentification seems very real, like an energy which leaves me with a conceptual understanding.
It also seems to me you have some expectations about what should happen if you see clearly there is no self. Expectations can get in the way of seeing and it's important to be aware of them to check if they are more than wishful thinking. I will try to make you notice your expectations if/when they come up, if it seems to me that you need to look at them. Example of a expectation that you may have - experiencing a different experience than the one you are experiencing:
I expect all experiences to be the same as always, visually, sounds, sensations etc
Do you expect this to change? If a self isn't real then all this is happening without a self that is experiencing and has control over experience. How could it be any different?
I guess I expect there would be less attachment or aversion to what is happening, it very much feels like the self tries to control the stimulus coming from the senses and thoughts and I expect that might reduce. I don't expect this to happen for the self but in the absence of the self.
So.... what are you expecting to happen when you see there is no self? Will you be free of all human experience? Will you be enlightened? Will you stop thinking unpleasant thouoghts and feeling unpleasant sensations? How do you think you and your life will change?
I expect there might be...
Less psychological tension due to things could feel more effortless
Thoughts might lose some authority leading to reduced defensiveness
More immediacy with emotions feeling more raw but less sticky
More flexibility in how to respond to situations
Less social judgment and more of a sense of ease.
Thanks
Rob
I messed up my reply to you so I'm going to rewrite here.
It seems to me that you are saying you can't see a self but that's just conceptual. Would you say this is what seems to be going on?
When I look for a self I can't pinpoint a position that a self exists in.
I am 53 years old and have always assumed I am the mind and body with the sense of being behind the eyes. I started looking more closely at this a couple of years ago and it seems very clear that there is seeing, hearing, sensations, thoughts etc that collectively combined with my name, age, job cause a misidentification. This misidentification seems very real, like an energy which leaves me with a conceptual understanding.
It also seems to me you have some expectations about what should happen if you see clearly there is no self. Expectations can get in the way of seeing and it's important to be aware of them to check if they are more than wishful thinking. I will try to make you notice your expectations if/when they come up, if it seems to me that you need to look at them. Example of a expectation that you may have - experiencing a different experience than the one you are experiencing:
I expect all experiences to be the same as always, visually, sounds, sensations etc
Do you expect this to change? If a self isn't real then all this is happening without a self that is experiencing and has control over experience. How could it be any different?
I guess I expect there would be less attachment or aversion to what is happening, it very much feels like the self tries to control the stimulus coming from the senses and thoughts and I expect that might reduce. I don't expect this to happen for the self but in the absence of the self.
So.... what are you expecting to happen when you see there is no self? Will you be free of all human experience? Will you be enlightened? Will you stop thinking unpleasant thouoghts and feeling unpleasant sensations? How do you think you and your life will change?
I expect there might be...
Less psychological tension due to things could feel more effortless
Thoughts might lose some authority leading to reduced defensiveness
More immediacy with emotions feeling more raw but less sticky
More flexibility in how to respond to situations
Less social judgment and more of a sense of ease.
Thanks
Rob
Re: Direct pointing
Hi Rob,
My name is Sandra and I'm a 55 years old Portuguese woman. Nice to meet you.
It seems to me you are saying you have looked and didn't find a self but the illusion is still going on. And because the illusion is going on, the seeing is conceptual.
I don't think a seeing can be conceptual. Seeing is seeing. And thinking is thinking.
If you have doubts while doing inquiry, or if you get caught in a story about a self or a no self, the best thing you can do is to look again - when you notice you are caught in a story came back to what is here now.
I know this is easier said than done. It's a question of practice. And practice. And practice.
Take care,
S
My name is Sandra and I'm a 55 years old Portuguese woman. Nice to meet you.
It happens, it's ok.I messed up my reply to you so I'm going to rewrite here.
Yes, a self seems to be real. The illusion is very unlikely to disapper and it's very helpful. If you didn't feel like a self you wouldn't run when you see a car going straight at you.When I look for a self I can't pinpoint a position that a self exists in.
I am 53 years old and have always assumed I am the mind and body with the sense of being behind the eyes. I started looking more closely at this a couple of years ago and it seems very clear that there is seeing, hearing, sensations, thoughts etc that collectively combined with my name, age, job cause a misidentification. This misidentification seems very real, like an energy which leaves me with a conceptual understanding.
It seems to me you are saying you have looked and didn't find a self but the illusion is still going on. And because the illusion is going on, the seeing is conceptual.
I don't think a seeing can be conceptual. Seeing is seeing. And thinking is thinking.
Yes.I expect all experiences to be the same as always, visually, sounds, sensations etc
I suggest that you go into this inquiry with a open mind. It's not possible to know what will happen in an imaginary future. Notice expectations when they appear and then let them go and look again. If possible notice the difference between the content of thinking and what is going on. A Portuguese poet wrote "Thinking Is a Sickness of the Eyes" and that's kind of true.I guess I expect there would be less attachment or aversion to what is happening, it very much feels like the self tries to control the stimulus coming from the senses and thoughts and I expect that might reduce. I don't expect this to happen for the self but in the absence of the self.
If you have doubts while doing inquiry, or if you get caught in a story about a self or a no self, the best thing you can do is to look again - when you notice you are caught in a story came back to what is here now.
I know this is easier said than done. It's a question of practice. And practice. And practice.
Thank you for this list of expectations. Well, those seem like reasonable expectations. I don't think they will keep you stuck but if necessary we can come back to noticing expectations.I expect there might be...
Less psychological tension due to things could feel more effortless
Thoughts might lose some authority leading to reduced defensiveness
More immediacy with emotions feeling more raw but less sticky
More flexibility in how to respond to situations
Less social judgment and more of a sense of ease.
What do you mean by "looking"? Please describe what you do when you "look" so that I can know what you mean.I started looking more closely at this a couple of years ago
Take care,
S
Re: Direct pointing
Hi Sandra,
Thank you for your patience with me trying to describe my investigation into trying to find a self, I feel I am looking incorrectly and coming up with a concept.
When I try looking for a self that controls thoughts, bodily movements, decisions I can't find a self but I feel that I am very identified with thoughts that it feels like I have control so I end up with a concept of a body performing movements and tasks, thoughts and decisions arise that prompts the body to move. The self inquiry feels like the mind is doing the looking.
I
Thanks
Rob
Thank you for your patience with me trying to describe my investigation into trying to find a self, I feel I am looking incorrectly and coming up with a concept.
I fully expect the illusion of a self to continue as it would be difficult to function without it I suspect.Yes, a self seems to be real. The illusion is very unlikely to disapper and it's very helpful. If you didn't feel like a self you wouldn't run when you see a car going straight at you.
It seems to me you are saying you have looked and didn't find a self but the illusion is still going on. And because the illusion is going on, the seeing is conceptual.
I don't think a seeing can be conceptual. Seeing is seeing. And thinking is thinking.
When I try looking for a self that controls thoughts, bodily movements, decisions I can't find a self but I feel that I am very identified with thoughts that it feels like I have control so I end up with a concept of a body performing movements and tasks, thoughts and decisions arise that prompts the body to move. The self inquiry feels like the mind is doing the looking.
I
I am wanting to do this with an open mind and understand that concepts would be a problem when direct looking. I especially like the trying to notice the difference between the content of thinking and what's going on!!suggest that you go into this inquiry with a open mind. It's not possible to know what will happen in an imaginary future. Notice expectations when they appear and then let them go and look again. If possible notice the difference between the content of thinking and what is going on. A Portuguese poet wrote "Thinking Is a Sickness of the Eyes" and that's kind of true.
If you have doubts while doing inquiry, or if you get caught in a story about a self or a no self, the best thing you can do is to look again - when you notice you are caught in a story came back to what is here now.
I know this is easier said than done. It's a question of practice. And practice. And practice.
When I am relaxed and in a quiet place what I call looking is more of a sense, the mind can feel blank but sensations and sounds are noticed. I try to sense what is doing the noticing but it can't be found, the mind then comes in with concepts of sensations and sounds are happening in consciousness and I end up feeling frustrated. It feels very difficult to understand how to look and it's the trying to understand that causes the frustration.What do you mean by "looking"? Please describe what you do when you "look" so that I can know what you mean.
Thanks
Rob
Re: Direct pointing
Hi Sandra,
This is a follow on from my previous reply about trying to look for a self.
When I am looking/sensing for the self that is noticing thoughts, sounds, sensations etc it seems that there is noticing happening and there is a self that claims to be the one noticing yet no self can be found. It seems like a lifelong habit or assumption that an imaginary self is the one noticing. When looking/sensing for the self it seems it's the imaginary self looking/sensing for the self.
Thanks
Rob
This is a follow on from my previous reply about trying to look for a self.
When I am looking/sensing for the self that is noticing thoughts, sounds, sensations etc it seems that there is noticing happening and there is a self that claims to be the one noticing yet no self can be found. It seems like a lifelong habit or assumption that an imaginary self is the one noticing. When looking/sensing for the self it seems it's the imaginary self looking/sensing for the self.
Thanks
Rob
Re: Direct pointing
Hi Rob and thank you for your two posts.
First I want to tell you that you are doing great!
And second I want to tell you that some frustration or struggle can be felt and doubts may linger. You're stepping outside your comfort zone which can feel uncomfortable.
It also seems to me you are trying too much and thinking too hard. That's also to be expected. We usualy try to solve questions by thinking about the answer. That's what we learned to do. But in this kind of inquiry the answer can't be found in the thinking. It's the thinking that is causing the illusion.
If I ask you if it's raining now you may look to a weather app and give me an answer. You can also look to the sky and give me an answer. The app would give you an answer that you may think is true (the same way the thinking is giving you answers that you may think are true) but if you don't check reality how can you know if the app is giving you the right answer? If you look the answer comes from seeing for yourself how the weather is now. And you wouldn't doubt the veracity of your answer.
That's what I mean when I talk about looking. Plain observation of what is present here, now, just as it is. And that's what I will be asking you to do. To look, to see, to use the eyes, the senses. And to describe what you find.
Take care,
S
First I want to tell you that you are doing great!
And second I want to tell you that some frustration or struggle can be felt and doubts may linger. You're stepping outside your comfort zone which can feel uncomfortable.
It also seems to me you are trying too much and thinking too hard. That's also to be expected. We usualy try to solve questions by thinking about the answer. That's what we learned to do. But in this kind of inquiry the answer can't be found in the thinking. It's the thinking that is causing the illusion.
If I ask you if it's raining now you may look to a weather app and give me an answer. You can also look to the sky and give me an answer. The app would give you an answer that you may think is true (the same way the thinking is giving you answers that you may think are true) but if you don't check reality how can you know if the app is giving you the right answer? If you look the answer comes from seeing for yourself how the weather is now. And you wouldn't doubt the veracity of your answer.
That's what I mean when I talk about looking. Plain observation of what is present here, now, just as it is. And that's what I will be asking you to do. To look, to see, to use the eyes, the senses. And to describe what you find.
When you look for the self, where are you trying to find a self?When I am looking/sensing for the self that is noticing thoughts, sounds, sensations etc it seems that there is noticing happening and there is a self that claims to be the one noticing yet no self can be found.
Take care,
S
Re: Direct pointing
Hi Sandra,
Thanks for the encouragement 😊
I recognise that thinking is like trying to solve a problem with the problem, I have been going round and round with the mind for quite some time trying to figure this out. I read a quote from someone who said "self can't get out of self" which resonated with what I have been doing.
When I look for a self I try to look for the self that gets frustrated, defensive, triggered etc...
I have been trying to look for the self in the frustration, defensiveness, triggering and the mind with the mind.
Thanks
Rob
Thanks for the encouragement 😊
I recognise that thinking is like trying to solve a problem with the problem, I have been going round and round with the mind for quite some time trying to figure this out. I read a quote from someone who said "self can't get out of self" which resonated with what I have been doing.
This sounds straight forward, I understand that simple doesn't mean easy.That's what I mean when I talk about looking. Plain observation of what is present here, now, just as it is. And that's what I will be asking you to do. To look, to see, to use the eyes, the senses. And to describe what you find.
This sounds like being very mindful and using discernment 👍ask you if it's raining now you may look to a weather app and give me an answer. You can also look to the sky and give me an answer. The app would give you an answer that you may think is true (the same way the thinking is giving you answers that you may think are true) but if you don't check reality how can you know if the app is giving you the right answer? If you look the answer comes from seeing for yourself how the weather is now. And you wouldn't doubt the veracity of your answer.
That's what I mean when I talk about looking. Plain observation of what is present here, now, just as it is. And that's what I will be asking you to do. To look, to see, to use the eyes, the senses. And to describe what you find.
After a lifetime of the usual human suffering I noticed that the suffering was being created by the mind so started looking into this through countless hours of reading books, searching the internet and watching YouTube videos. Self inquiry was what many people said is the most successful path so I have been trying to do this without guidance which has led me here.When you look for the self, where are you trying to find a self?
When I look for a self I try to look for the self that gets frustrated, defensive, triggered etc...
I have been trying to look for the self in the frustration, defensiveness, triggering and the mind with the mind.
Thanks
Rob