Step 5, doubt, and wanting to be done with this

[bluzulu]

Yes, it is certainly possible that, as often happens in life, the meanings that happened in my head were not those intended by the sender, so thanks for reminding me of that possibility!

It does sounds like all those doubting thoughts about what is happening are still distracting your attention from the direct experience of what actually is happening in any given moment. Is that correct?

And might there still be some concept from years of seeking that initial awakening should be complete with perfect present moment awareness, acceptance, clarity, loving-kindness, and freedom from discouraging thoughts?

[avare]

Yes, it is certainly possible that, as often happens in life, the meanings that happened in my head were not those intended by the sender, so thanks for reminding me of that possibility!

yes of course! in fact this is one of the most constant of the doubting thoughts' content. Fear that actually nothing has changed here and it is just distraction. An uncertainty that it is fine to go on about daily life and living, when no shift has occurred and things remain mostly the same.

It does sounds like all those doubting thoughts about what is happening are still distracting your attention from the direct experience of what actually is happening in any given moment. Is that correct?

YES, very much what is happening. had some thoughts the other day that every planning thought or judging thought, or really any thought that is saying anything at all, is never actually useful/has no point, because it is always _about_ experience and not just experience happening. They are not noticed as part of the content but rather as existing separate and commenting _on_ direct experience.

And might there still be some concept from years of seeking that initial awakening should be complete with perfect present moment awareness, acceptance, clarity, loving-kindness, and freedom from discouraging thoughts?

yes, definitely. the concept is that there would be less effort, no energy or trying or doing. No more burden on being the one living life, and just everything happening spontaneously. Recently too, there has been very little drive to do much of anything apart from consuming entertainment. what ends up happening is some idea or plan of doing or working towards some goal happens, some more thoughts come over and say, 'well, there isn't anyone doing anything, so if there's still working towards something, this should be directed towards waking up, but not being awake is just a concept and not actually what is happening, so there isn't any waking up to do either' so nothing happens.

as things are now, there is just a lot of doubting, less on what to do, and more actually on nothing having happened.

thank you for helping, this is both so simple and so not simple sometimes!

[bluzulu]

Lucas, it sounds like thoughts are still getting an incredible amount of attention.
And that that attention is causing a lot of misery.

You have previously said

[it]happened a couple times today, again while walking 😊. just a recognition (usually followed by a thought afterwards) of noticing that actually there is no boundary anywhere… and the idea of moving through a 3d world softens!

and

when attention is in more entertaining things, or in university things, everything seems to be forgotten and thoughts seem factual and true. every time the gap happens, it is when i am walking around, and do the relaxed open practice with an intention to just be curious that there is this happening.

Were those when you were relaxing your awareness open to sensory experience?
Did you find the sensory awareness practice I sent helpful? Are you still making time to practice it both online and during the day, and if so how much of each?

[avare]

Were those when you were relaxing your awareness open to sensory experience?

yes, always when walking and relaxing awareness.

Did you find the sensory awareness practice I sent helpful? Are you still making time to practice it both online and during the day, and if so how much of each?

definitely not spending enough time practicing. Maybe around 15minutes total? Apart from when im walking around between classes and to and from my dorm, there's just been total engrossment in activities.

it is weird because the drive to 'practice' has lessened tremendously but at the same time it just feels like back to the status quo if that makes any sense. back to attention being focused mostly on thoughts.

[bluzulu]

are you up for another zoom? maybe tomorrow at 1?

[avare]

are you up for another zoom? maybe tomorrow at 1?

yes 100%

[bluzulu]

great!!
I'll have it set up in advance this time :-) and will email you the link shortly before 1 EST tomorrow.

[avare]

okay that's perfect!

[avare]

hey!

i joined the zoom, says waiting for host to start the meeting :)

[avare]

hey pablo!

not sure so much what to talk about, but there's still definitely a want to talk.

nothing has really changed since our talk, mostly just seem to keep myself busy.

what I do know, is that when I reply/look at your questions, they keep me honest about what is actually happening, in direct experience. So maybe from what you can see from over there, could you perhaps give me some pointed questions?

there seems to still be a belief that this is done through time and that there is still choosing happening here, hence thinking that there is a problem that not enough relaxed open practice has occurred in the past couple of days.

thank you!

[bluzulu]

Sorry, somehow I just saw this as I was ready to write and ask how it's going. Thanks for keeping in touch.

there seems to still be a belief that this is done through time

Can you be more specific about what “done through time” means?

and that there is still choosing happening here

what happens that indicates that is a belief? Please be specific.

there is a problem that not enough relaxed open practice has occurred

specifically, how is that a problem now?

/p

[bluzulu]

Also, how do you expect your moment to moment experience of being alive would be different if you were awake?
What would be happening in your mind and body and behavior and conscious experience?

How do you think that all is for me or anyone else who is awake?

Can we agree to post within 24 hours of receiving a reply from each other?

[bluzulu]

Lucas, how are you?
I'd love to hear from you!

[avare]

thank you for the reply!

Can you be more specific about what “done through time” means?

the idea is that the more practice happens, the more abiding the little 'gap' that happens will become, until a certain point in time then that thoughts are no longer mistaken for reality. So sort of, the 'practice' only ever happens now, but it takes time (when looked practically) for thoughts to lose their pull.

what happens that indicates that is a belief? Please be specific.

i think the best way to put it is that it is the default feeling. throughout the day, sort of on autopilot, there is still thoughts about choosing, planning to do this vs that, going back in time debating why this vs that was that, acting as if things could be different. for example, aversion/thoughts still happen a lot for some reason of procrastinating replying here.

truly, for some reason thoughts pop up as if replying was something that is undesirable to do/a chore or deadline to meet. which I really dont get, because every time I do reply, it is both helpful and insightful. there seems to be contradicting thoughts too, of wanting accountability but also running away from replying? which then also reinforces the idea that there is choosing happening, as if I could have acted better, so judging happens as well.

specifically, how is that a problem now?

well, this ties in to i think more practical day-to-day beliefs but currently there is still judging going on about how life is happening. although a bit less prevalent than in the best when thoughts were crazy all the time about it, there is still a great deal of thoughts happening 'about' choosing. it is made into a problem because there are ideas about it not being efficient. Like, there is understanding that choosing does not happen on a logical level (sometimes, perhaps not fully as well) so then when so many thoughts that only make sense in that context keep popping up it is seen like a waste of energy and almost an affront to the fact that there understanding. Like if this was truly seen through there wouldn't be so much attention on these thoughts.

there is also a sort of repeating 'limbo' idea in the thoughts that are popping up. which when writing or deliberating, it is obvious that even that is just more noise, just thoughts, just experiencing, but for most of the day when on autopilot, the story is kept up and the thoughts seem to matter.

the idea is that right now there is mostly just living doing what i want (in the same of not putting much thought about the future or the practical things that need doing). HAHAHA, gosh there's something funny in writing that down. I dont think i go the point quite across but that just made me chuckle, because the living doing what i want is exactly all that i think is missing/why not awake here. if i was then there would be less worry and just be able to enjoy the moment and appreciate whatever it is that is arising.

right now however, there is a lot of immediate gratification, which from what I have consumed so in turn beliefs, is viewed as bad. At this point there is two clashing views. first, this seems to be the only thing in the way, the 'problem', that actually it is not bad, it is just what is happening. And the other, is that actually it is bad because it seems that throwing myself into distraction has caused a regression which causes less practice to happen and less times the gap to occur, like the motivation drops tremendously, which connects to the previous ideas that things happen 'in time' and work (relaxed practice/looking) still needs to be done.

[bluzulu]

Hi Lucas, I know you've been busy!
Can you respond to the first two of the last three posts now?

fingers crossed :-) /p