I would like to engage with a guide again

[Noro]

Hi Lesley,

Were 'you' ever here?

No. Although sometimes I think I was! When ensconced in emotion and belief systems.

YES! And this will continue to play out, but there will be a gradual "dropping away" of identifying with old narratives.

I have tried to answer these questions from direct/actual experience. It is hard to move from intellectual/conceptual response as I am so rooted in it.

You are doing so well, remember "hard" is just a thought!

I can clearly 'see'. However I then fall back into 'Old roots'. I Flik flak between them.

YES! Again, old habits play out, AND offer us the chance to LOOK at what's happening and SEE that thought has momentarily eclipsed attention from the other senses including the sense of being.

The following video might be helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4
"Sometimes waking up goes back and forth a bit"


MEMORY EXERCISE
Almost everybody takes a memory about a past event as an actuality; that it actually happened in the way we've been told (i.e. history) or in the way we "remember" a past event. This exercise is not to discount memory, it is pointing to what is actually happening in our direct experience when a memory arises.

What is a memory? We can say it is a thought (and this includes mental images) that seems to refer to a narrative about the past and which may or may not evoke feelings/sensations in the body.

Sit down, take a few breaths to relax and then bring to mind a recent "event". Choose something simple, it could have happened 5 minutes ago as you remember what you were doing before you sat down to do this exercise.

Just let a "memory" be there, and look at it, simply, in your direct experience. And remember, you don't have to know, or come up with some explanation as you answer the questions!!

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is the memory ‘made of’? What is actually happening in your direct experience?

Now, think of a flying pink elephant flying across the room, let that image go, and now return to the memory thought.

Without a thought to interpret, what is the actual difference between those two thoughts?

Is there a difference, other than the content?

How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Does it require further thought to affirm the apparent "reality" of the memory thought

Now, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that might happen?

What is this information based on?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference, how is that difference is known exactly?

Any further comments?

[LesleyBitzy]

What is the memory ‘made of’? What is actually happening in your direct experience?

Just a bunch of pictures /thoughts

Now, think of a flying pink elephant flying across the room, let that image go, and now return to the memory thought.
Without a thought to interpret, what is the actual difference between those two thoughts?

No difference

Is there a difference, other than the content?

No. The pink elephant appeared every so often in my 'recent memory’ thought.

How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Thoughts specify it.

Does it require further thought to affirm the apparent "reality" of the memory thought

Yes

Now, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Thoughts, mental images.

What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

No difference

How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that might happen?

By the content of the thought.

What is this information based on?

Content of thought

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future?

The only difference is the thought content.

If there is difference, how is that difference is known exactly?

By the content of the thought. Maybe different mental images.

Any further comments?

Looking at this it seems so simple. Unless of course I’ve mis understood.

[Noro]

Hello Lesley,

Looking at this it seems so simple. Unless of course I’ve mis understood.

Beautiful! ... and do you see how thought creeps back in claiming ownership and attention!!!

Now I see it, now I don't! This really is a game of hide and seek!
Old patterns of thought processes reflecting old patterns of conditioning are going to continue.
I saw you mentioned your age earlier on in the thread, and I can happily share with you that I am only a few years behind you. I have seen through this illusion, and the doubt that I had for a long time gradually faded when I got bored with keeping on looking for something that couldn't be found! And yet I can still get caught up in my own, or other people's stories! For me, that is human engagement, but it is no longer taken as personal.

That last question of the exercise really was a hook because it what it was asking appeared personal, so automatically the default answer was going to be a response from an apparent personal perspective. This is totally natural. Thoughts about being mistaken i.e. doubt, come from our conditioning, as well as an innate natural intelligence, but such thoughts do not belong to a separate "self" because that cannot be located.

When you say "I" does there need to be an ownership of that by a separate "someone"?
is there a locatable "you" that is identified with that?
Can a "doubt" thought be fully allowed as it is ?
Can an "I need to know or be sure" thought be fully allowed as it is?
Can the feelings and sensations of doubt that arise in the body be fully allowed and experienced as they are.


NATURE EXERCISE

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time. And if you life in the center of a town, you can still take in the movement of the whole.

Now move the focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement, always. Only thoughts can seem to distract from this one movement, and actually, they too are part of that one movement.

Now close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

Now open your eyes

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

Is witnessing part of the one movement, too?

Can an actual witness be found?

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found......and see the personal nature of this last question! :)

[LesleyBitzy]

Hello.
Sorry I am slow responding . I wanted to let you know that I have been overwhelmed with Health and Life admin issues lately and I am trying to pace myself.
I have also lately been caught up in my long time old belief system that I 'need' therapy. I was infact a trained therapist. I stopped doing it when I realised that my clients did not have a problem, they just thought they did, and I couldn't continue with my profession as I felt that I was cheating them.
However I have been getting 'Therapy, myself, on and off for the last 50 years and I saw something written the other day about how 'emotions' are just thoughts. I said to myself,'Aha".
Also , asking myself why do I continue down that same old road that has yet to bring me peace and satisfaction. It's time to stop and let go.
Im very interested in the 'Fetters' and have read a lot about them and wonder if it's something that would be helpful for me.
Anyway I wanted to connect with you to let you know I am going to post the latest exercise today or tomorrow and want you to know how appreciative I am of your attention.
Thank you

Lesley

[Noro]

Hello Lesley,

Im sorry that you've been experiencing overwhelm recently. Thanks for letting me know, and do take your time with the exercise.

Regarding emotions, from a Fetter model perspective, emotions consist of body sensations with an overlay of a thought label of say anger, grief, joy, love. We are either pushing away "what is happening" or "desiring something". However there is a more complex layer to emotions when they relate to old trauma patterns, in which case a therapist might be helpful.

For simple daily annoyances, if you like I can help you look at deconstructing emotional reactivity, and I can also recommend to you two websites that look at Fetters:

https://theawakeningcurriculum.com where there is also copious YouTube content and

https://www.simplytheseen.com/self-guid ... lines.html

Also , asking myself why do I continue down that same old road that has yet to bring me peace and satisfaction.

For this statement, I have to ask you:

Where is that "me" that has an expectation of having peace and satisfaction.

Please can you give this statement/expectation a little of your time ...
You've seen clearly that there is no "separate self" to be found. So if there is no separate self entity, this desire is somewhat redundant is it not?
You've seen that thoughts appear, and there is no "you" in charge of thoughts. But all personal thoughts about a future rosier reality are coming from a sense of lack "that things should be other than they are."

Do you see this?

A sense of lack implies a FEELIING state.

How does it feel in your body when the thought arises "why do I continue down that same old road that has yet to bring me peace and satisfaction."

This is Fetter work! Seeing through the illusion that a "separate self" ever existed does not mean that suffering will end, there are still conditioning patterns, expectations etc. functioning as they always have. They never needed a separate self to do that since no evidence of a separate self has ever been found.


Warmly,
Rowena

[LesleyBitzy]

When you say "I" does there need to be an ownership of that by a separate "someone"?

No.

is there a locatable "you" that is identified with that?

There is not.

Can a "doubt" thought be fully allowed as it is ?

Yes it can.

Can an "I need to know or be sure" thought be fully allowed as it is?

Yes it can.

Can the feelings and sensations of doubt that arise in the body be fully allowed and experienced as they are.

Yes they can. No need to suppress anything.


NATURE EXERCISE

Now close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

There is no boundary.

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

No there is not.
I

s there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Everything is included.

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

There is no witness.

Is witnessing part of the one movement, too?

No it's not.

Can an actual witness be found?

No there is no witness.

Is there anything which is not just happening?

No. Everything is happening.

Also , asking myself why do I continue down that same old road that has yet to bring me peace and satisfaction.
For this statement, I have to ask you:

Where is that "me" that has an expectation of having peace and satisfaction.

There is no me.

I can see that thoughts appear and there is no me in charge. I can see that all personal thoughts come from a sense of lack "that things should be other than they are".

How does it feel in your body when the thought arises "why do I continue down that same old road that has yet to bring me peace and satisfaction."

In my body when I have that thought I feel sensations dragging in the small of my back, and shortness of breath, tight chest.

[Noro]

This is very good going Lesley,

How does it feel in your body when the thought arises "why do I continue down that same old road that has yet to bring me peace and satisfaction."

In my body when I have that thought I feel sensations dragging in the small of my back, and shortness of breath, tight chest.

Although it has been seen that no separate self can be found it doesn't mean that old patterns will not still arise.
It doesn't mean that there will no longer patterns of resistance to what is arising which shows up as sensations of tension, shortness of breath, tight chest and thoughts about wishing for peace and satisfaction. In fact, body sensations can become more apparent.

Can you give these sensations your full and undivided attention as you watch them move through your body, even though that may take a while?

Seeing through the separate self illusion can provide some space and a degree of distance from being caught up in the continued patterns, but those patterns will continue and it can seem like a constant to and fro between seeing clearly one moment and then being swept away in another.

Can you see that there is a part of you that is dedicated to the pursuit of truth and that there is another part that comes from old habitual conditioned patterns that is fighting this truth.

Space can immediately be made when you reframe a problematic thought like the one above in the following way:

Saying to yourself: "I am experiencing having the thought "why do I continue down that same old road that has yet to bring me peace and satisfaction." And then immediately ask yourself how it feels in the body. This is the formula to follow.
The body holds years of stress, tension and emotions from conditioning, and it will become a new practice to shift your focus from looking to find something that you have seen doesn't exist, to sensations that you can fully experience and be with.

Here is a helpful video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4
"Sometimes waking up goes back and forth a bit"

Finally, please tell me:

Do you control thoughts?

Do you control movements?

Do you control sensations?

Do you control attention?

Even if the answers seem known all ready please look openly and freshly to see in direct experience. The crux is not to think about it but be still and see in real time.

Any further comments?

[LesleyBitzy]

Can you give these sensations your full and undivided attention as you watch them move through your body, even though that may take a while?
Yes I can.

Can you see that there is a part of you that is dedicated to the pursuit of truth and that there is another part that comes from old habitual conditioned patterns that is fighting this truth.

Yes I can see this clearly.

Saying to yourself: "I am experiencing having the thought "why do I continue down that same old road that has yet to bring me peace and satisfaction." And then immediately ask yourself how it feels in the body. This is the formula to follow.

I have started to do this.

Do you control thoughts?

No. Although isn't using the above formula a way to control thoughts?

Do you control movements?

Not that I can see.

Do you control sensations?

No they seem to have their own life.

Do you control attention?

No but doesn't using the formula,'control' attention?

Any further comments?

I have noticed that my 'sometime dedication' to my thoughts which interchanges with my,
'dedication' to the truth is always with me.
I also noticed my, 'body sensations' are always present and it is tricky not to label them , because of my habitual tendencies, as you suggested earlier. I see clearly that I don't always notice the body sensations.

[Noro]

Hi Lesley,

Do you control thoughts?

No. Although isn't using the above formula a way to control thoughts?

First of all we know there is no "you" or "I"", so if there's no controller, "you" to be found then there can be no actual control. Thoughts are still happening the way they were, but as a result of there being a desire towards greater clarity of mental processes, new thoughts or phrasing can arise.

Do you control attention?

No but doesn't using the formula,'control' attention?

Your answer is just another thought.
Can a controller of attention be found?
Can you control when you clearly see that no separate self can be found and the next minute attention has become entranced by a personal narrative that is taken to belong to an "I".

The habitual ideas and narratives have never belonged to a separate "I". So the fact that it can be seen that any thought is actually empty of an "I" doesn't stop identifying with that empty narrative. That empty narrative will continue on in its empty way.

I have noticed that my 'sometime dedication' to my thoughts which interchanges with my,
'dedication' to the truth is always with me.

Great!

I also noticed my, 'body sensations' are always present and it is tricky not to label them , because of my habitual tendencies, as you suggested earlier. I see clearly that I don't always notice the body sensations.

Also good noticing. Labelling is not a problem....it is simply more thought interpretation isn't it? And thought interpretation is simply part of a looping system pointing the way back into the body sensations, even if a detour had taken place off into memories and narratives. Again this is a new pattern of clearer noticing that will continue to evolve.


Is there still a sense of seeking a further, deeper or more final seeing through self? Yes/No?
If yes, please say more about what is being sought?

Now, please look into the following and answer honestly:

If you answered the above with a "yes" answer, did your answer come from your direct experience?
If not, how did it arise?

Warmly,
Rowena

[Noro]

Hello Lesley,

I haven't heard from you for a few days, how are things going?

Warmly,
Rowena

[LesleyBitzy]

Hi Rowena. I’ve been quite stressed again. I intend to post tomorrow. Sorry to be slow.
Lesley

[LesleyBitzy]

Can a controller of attention be found?

No.

Can you control when you clearly see that no separate self can be found and the next minute attention has become entranced by a personal narrative that is taken to belong to an "I".

No. If I can't control thought then how can I NOT, have another thought? If I see that there is no 'I' then I can see that it is just another thought.

Is there still a sense of seeking a further, deeper or more final seeing through self? Yes/No?

Yes

If yes, please say more about what is being sought?

To be honest I am still looking for Perfect Peace, despite advice to the contrary. The thought,'Why am I so stupid. I can't seem to see that Perfect peace does not exist. There is a sense of frustration. As I write this I stay with my feeling of 'Frustration' and notice in my chest a familiar tightening. A feeling of tearfulness which in my head feels like a thick mist, and a rising energy within my stomach and chest. I do the exercises,'In good Faith'!

If you answered the above with a "yes" answer, did your answer come from your direct experience?

Yes it came from direct experience.

[Noro]

Hello Lesley,

First of all, I know that you are going through a stressful time at the moment as per your prior response, and so I really admire your dedication to keeping on looking, as well as your honesty of where you feel you are at.

Let's, take a close look at your latest reply:

Can a controller of attention be found?

No.[

/quote]

GOOD! And this is the starting point for all of the following questions.

Can you control when you clearly see that no separate self can be found and the next minute attention has become entranced by a personal narrative that is taken to belong to an "I".

No. If I can't control thought then how can I NOT, have another thought? If I see that there is no 'I' then I can see that it is just another thought.

This shows up the conundrum perfectly! First of all you answer with a firm "NO!". And then thought takes over:

" If I can't control thought then how can I NOT, have another thought?

Exactly, but YOU cannot have another thought or not have another thought. Always returning to what you have already clearly seen, there is no ACTUAL "you"! Thoughts can be compared to clouds in the sky, they are always arising unbidden, simply content of a thinking mind, that SEEMS to imply a separate, independent "you"

"If I see that there is no 'I' then I can see that it is just another thought."

YES!

Is there still a sense of seeking a further, deeper or more final seeing through self? Yes/No?

Yes

How does this sense of seeking show up. Please spend a little time contemplating:
What is this sense of seeking?
Are there thoughts?
What is the content of thought?
Is it a familiar spew ?
What is this sense of seeking pointing to in the body?
Are there sensations?
Where in the body are the sensations located?
Are there emotions?
If there are emotions, look closer....
What emotion is present? (i.e. name given to the emotion)
Where in the body is the emotion located?

If yes, please say more about what is being sought?

To be honest I am still looking for Perfect Peace, despite advice to the contrary.

OOh....(You) fell into that one! :)

But then you go deeper.... well done!

The thought,'Why am I so stupid. I can't seem to see that Perfect peace does not exist. There is a sense of frustration. As I write this I stay with my feeling of 'Frustration' and notice in my chest a familiar tightening. A feeling of tearfulness which in my head feels like a thick mist, and a rising energy within my stomach and chest.

Lesley, you are seeing clearly that there is no actual apparent separate self to be found. And if such a thing can't be found, it can only be concluded that it must have never existed in the first place other than as a kind of short-cut label pointing to a myriad of extraordinary processes appearing within one unique body-mind system. Most of those processes are unconscious, 95% I believe, and 5% are readily available to the conscious awareness. As we delve deeper into inquiry then we are inevitably going to uncover emotional 'stuff' that has been shoved away in the body (the 95%) as we have followed a strategy of distraction away from our body feelings, and as a result, most of us have little body sense as a result.

I do the exercises,'In good Faith'!

YES, you do!
Are "you" the seeker?
Can an actual "seeker" be found?

Let's take a look at the opening questions:

How will life change?

I don't think that life will change. It will still be the same life.

How will I change?

I will not change. I will still be the same.

What will be different?

I will have stopped seeking. I will have seen that there is no 'self' and there is nothing to discover.

You have seen that there is no 'self' and there is nothing to discover!
Are you still seeking to prove the existence of a 'separate self' entity?
Is there a 'you' seeking?
Or is 'seeking' a label given to some unclear motivation to move away from some inner state that could be labelled "I don't want this" and towards some other inner state labelled "I want that....i.e. Perfect Peace/"
What is seeking?
What does the word 'seeking' imply?

What is missing?

If I experience that there is no self then nothing will be missing.

Can "anything" be missing, other than a thought, followed by another thought, followed by another thought..... pointing into body sensations, interpreted as emotions, followed by a narrative, etc.?

DIRECT EXPERIENCE
Take a moment to sit down and relax and focus on your breath.
Place a hand on your belly and feel the sensation of your hand on your belly.
Feel your feel on the ground.
Feel the chair beneath you as you are sitting.
Take in the full experience of the visual field. Let all labels drop.
Take in the full experience of the sound field. Let all labels drop.
Sit quietly, let thoughts come and go as they will.

Is there anything missing?

You are getting this Lesley, keep going!

The fact that it can be seen that any thought is actually empty of an "I" doesn't stop identification with that empty narrative.

Warmly,
Rowena

PS, I made a botch up with the Quote function, but I think the questions are clear!

[LesleyBitzy]

How does this sense of seeking show up. Please spend a little time contemplating:

What is this sense of seeking?

It's a feeling/emotion a way to make me feel better about myself after suffering from thoughts. It is not being in Direct Experience. It's as if I'm averse to Direct experience sometimes.

Are there thoughts?

Yes.

What is the content of thought?

It's anything/random.

Is it a familiar spew ?

It's very familiar. Same old! Like: why am I not getting it. I am damaged. Blame my mother/father/exhusband. Am I mad, etc

What is this sense of seeking pointing to in the body?

Emotions and sensations.

Are there sensations?[/quote
Yes.

Where in the body are the sensations located?

Stomach, chest head, throat.

Are there emotions?

Yes.

If there are emotions, look closer....

What emotion is present? (i.e. name given to the emotion)

Sadness, fear, worry.

Where in the body is the emotion located?

chest, throat, head.

Can an actual "seeker" be found?

No.

Are you still seeking to prove the existence of a 'separate self' entity?

Sometimes.

Is there a 'you' seeking?

When I am not in Direct Experience then the answer is yes.

Or is 'seeking' a label given to some unclear motivation to move away from some inner state that could be labelled "I don't want this" and towards some other inner state labelled "I want that....i.e. Perfect Peace/"

Yes, that's exactly it.

What is seeking?

Thoughts are seeking.

What does the word 'seeking' imply?

Looking to change things/to find a way to make me feel better.

Can "anything" be missing, other than a thought, followed by another thought, followed by another thought..... pointing into body sensations, interpreted as emotions, followed by a narrative, etc.?

No, nothing.

DIRECT EXPERIENCE
Take a moment to sit down and relax and focus on your breath.
Place a hand on your belly and feel the sensation of your hand on your belly.
Feel your feel on the ground.
Feel the chair beneath you as you are sitting.
Take in the full experience of the visual field. Let all labels drop.
Take in the full experience of the sound field. Let all labels drop.
Sit quietly, let thoughts come and go as they will.

Is there anything missing?

There is nothing missing.

[LesleyBitzy]

Hi again. I wanted to add, when I am not in Direct experience there is a sense of, 'Have I done my homework?. Don't want to upset Rowena or she might reject me.'