Sooo grateful for your help

[LuzClarita8]

Very grateful for all the feedback! And the pointing questions! Thank yoooouuu!!!

What does "identification" consist of?

A subtle thought referencing the illusory "me"

What does a "happening to me" thought have compared with saying the word "banana"? What is the difference? (Clue...look into the body!)

"Happening to me" sensations include contraction, tension, vibration; banana sensation seems more subtle.

If there is body sensation, does a body sensation point anywhere or does it remain simply as body sensation?

It is only in thought that "Happening to me" body sensations seem to suggest heightened alertness/responsiveness/defensiveness; body sensations are simply body sensations.

I'm working on the next exercise! Likely post the response tomorrow vs tonight!
Thank yooouuu!

[Noro]

Good going!

It is only in thought that "Happening to me" body sensations seem to suggest heightened alertness/responsiveness/defensiveness; body sensations are simply body sensations.

Yes, this is the way it is! You are seeing that body sensations are simply body sensations, and thought is simply thought. Refining this down further to simply 'sensations' and 'interpretations'. However, due to the way they APPEAR to be linked, whatever thought is saying, especially when it is personal, can feel very 'real,' and we get pulled into a 'thought trail' that can even become a "thought tsunami!" And, that's OK too! The thing is to develop a habit to stop the thinking in its tracks and spend a moment with sensations which are always active, but without interpretation by thought, all sensations are simply...... sensations.

THOUGHT: "I am tired!" "Oh really, how do I know I'm tired?....that's an interpretation" >>>
Wait a minute, what else is here? >>> SENSATIONS without interpretation >>> SEEING, without interpretation >>>> HEARING, without interpretation.

[LuzClarita8]

Where are they coming from and going to?

They just appear and dissolve

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No

Can you predict your next thought?

No

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

It may seem as if thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Yesss, it's just another thought, the idea that the thoughts follow an organized sequence or logical flow

such helpful reflections!

[LuzClarita8]

Yes, this is the way it is! You are seeing that body sensations are simply body sensations, and thought is simply thought. Refining this down further to simply 'sensations' and 'interpretations'. However, due to the way they APPEAR to be linked, whatever thought is saying, especially when it is personal, can feel very 'real,' and we get pulled into a 'thought trail' that can even become a "thought tsunami!" And, that's OK too! The thing is to develop a habit to stop the thinking in its tracks and spend a moment with sensations which are always active, but without interpretation by thought, all sensations are simply...... sensations.
THOUGHT: "I am tired!" "Oh really, how do I know I'm tired?....that's an interpretation" >>>
Wait a minute, what else is here? >>> SENSATIONS without interpretation >>> SEEING, without interpretation >>>> HEARING, without interpretation.

I love this! I'll try this as often as possible through out the days <3

[Noro]

STREAM EXERCISE

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is a stream ever really a separate entity, different from other water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it ever the exact same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions, ground conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Using this metaphor, can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens.

Consider that there are environmental factors, consider any preferences like color, shape and texture. Consider where did those preferences come from?
Was any autonomous intervention actually involved?
Consider any practical issues (such as what is available).
Consider the time factor, i.e. for preparation.
Consider the purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Where in all of the above is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find a someone somewhere? (Not just thoughts, and thoughts about the thoughts (thought bundles), none of which are solid even if they seem to have some solidity for an instant.)

Do you control attention?
Do you control feelings?
Do you control choices?
Do you control anything?

3. Now consider, can anything be found for which a 'you' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

[LuzClarita8]

1. Using this metaphor, can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

No

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens.

In deciding what to wear, there was a visual review of available clothes, thought wondering what's the temperature & weather today, varied sensory experience of checking the forecast, thoughts about the types of interactions I needed to dress for today, and finally putting on the clothes that thought deemed suitable for the weather and social dynamics.

Consider that there are environmental factors, consider any preferences like color, shape and texture. Consider where did those preferences come from?

Preferences appear in the moment as thoughts.

Was any autonomous intervention actually involved?

No
Consider any practical issues (such as what is available).
Consider the time factor, i.e. for preparation.
Consider the purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Where in all of the above is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find a someone somewhere? (Not just thoughts, and thoughts about the thoughts (thought bundles), none of which are solid even if they seem to have some solidity for an instant.)

There's no autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life, no "someone" anywhere outside of thought.

Do you control attention?

No

Do you control feelings?

No

Do you control choices?

No

Do you control anything?

No

3. Now consider, can anything be found for which a 'you' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

No, nothing

[Noro]

Good going Clara! <3

"In deciding what to wear, there was a visual review of available clothes, thought wondering what's the temperature & weather today, varied sensory experience of checking the forecast, thoughts about the types of interactions I needed to dress for today, and finally putting on the clothes that thought deemed suitable for the weather and social dynamics."

Just being pedantic here, but can: "thought deem suitable or not suitable......"
What's actually going on?
Is thought a separate thing that can agree, decide, concur?
Or is it that thinking is happening and there is a thought appearing that silently says "yes that's the one." ?

I can see that you are seeing clearly, I just want to point out how quickly we can slip into language that makes a noun or a thing out of what's arising in a dynamic movement of sensory input and thinking. A very useful qualifier to every normal day arising can be "It seems as if......" this helps settle the paradox between the relative view and when we are looking from Direct/Actual Experience.

My suggestion as a next exercise:

Randomly, go about your day and whenever you can take a few moments to relax take a look at an object.
I see a chair.......
It seems as if "I" see a chair......
Now let go of "I", let go of the named content of the visual field....
See that all you are left with is the visual field, then notice the other sense fields arising, sounds, sensations.

And include BUTTCHAIR (Always a good one to sit with!)

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?
It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just be with the sensations.
Sink into that noticing. Notice how it FEELS.

Please let me know how you get on, what happens when you take a moment to stop as you go about your day and slip into "It seems as if....." mode? How does it FEEL?

[LuzClarita8]

What's actually going on?
Is thought a separate thing that can agree, decide, concur?
Or is it that thinking is happening and there is a thought appearing that silently says "yes that's the one." ?

Yesss thanks for pointing this out!!! Thought cannot "deem suitable or not suitable" and does not represent a separate entity/self that can 'agree, decide, or concur.' When a thought appears that says, "that's the outfit for today, that's the one," that is just thinking happening, a thought in the string of thoughts. Another thought might say "I chose this outfit" when in fact this is also just another thought in the stream of thought referring to no separate chooser.

[LuzClarita8]

It seems as if "I" see a chair......
Now let go of "I", let go of the named content of the visual field....
See that all you are left with is the visual field, then notice the other sense fields arising, sounds, sensations.

I love this! Very helpful for getting into the sense fields and away from thought. I plan to do more of this over the next few days!

And include BUTTCHAIR (Always a good one to sit with!)

haha sitting with buttchair! heehee :)
Yesssss so good, BUTTCHAIR is especially clear to me, as it came up as perceptual shift on retreat. Struck me as so funny that there was no fundamental difference between "my body" and "the bed" when I sat down

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.
Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?
It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just be with the sensations.
Sink into that noticing. Notice how it FEELS.
Please let me know how you get on, what happens when you take a moment to stop as you go about your day and slip into "It seems as if....." mode? How does it FEEL?

At the level of sense perception there is no line between "chair" and "butt" just sensations with no clear division.
When dropping into sensation and letting the labels go, it seemed as if I felt relief, enjoyment, relaxation, and curiosity. It felt as if awareness of sensation was appearing and disappearing 'at different points' the sense fields.

I will keep exploring this!

[Noro]

At the level of sense perception there is no line between "chair" and "butt" just sensations with no clear division.
When dropping into sensation and letting the labels go, it seemed as if I felt relief, enjoyment, relaxation, and curiosity. It felt as if awareness of sensation was appearing and disappearing 'at different points' the sense fields.

Wonderful! Those sensations or feelings of "relief, enjoyment, relaxation and curiosity"! I love that you had those feelings.
And I think you will enjoy the opportunity to look deeper here.....

How does it FEEL in the body to feel/sense "relief," "enjoyment," "relaxation," and "curiosity"? These are interpretations of body states/sensations which can be so subtle to qualify. First of all there seems to be a constant scanning going on for comparing and interpreting body sensations as good or bad, which seems to happen automatically, and then "curiosity" arises and we start to become more interested in what is actually happening.

We can ask:
What is "relief"? What does that word seem to be pointing to? Is a reference point of comparison needed whereby "relief"? is noticed rather than feeling "worried?
What silent self-talk is going on in the back-ground? i.e. "This is good." "It's gone well!"

What is "enjoyment"? Again, what does that word seem to be pointing to? Does it need a reference point as a comparison to a more "neutral" or even "Not enjoyment" state?
Does "enjoyment" seem to be relating to external conditions whereby there is a separate "something" that is overlaying what is happening with that interpretation?

Same questions can be asked for "relaxation".... What does "relaxation" seem to be pointing to? What's going on in the body?
Look for any hidden self-talk going on.

And finally a look at "curiosity", a wonderful state to find oneself in!
What seems to be going on when there is "curiosity" ?
And what happens when "curiosity" is no longer available?

And let's not leave out the state/feeling labelled "doubt." This is of equal importance to look into with curiosity .. What does that word/thought/label "doubt" seem to be pointing to?
How does this word compare with another word/thought/label like "certainty"? What are they pointing to?
How does it feel in the body to feel "certain"?
How does it feel in the body to feel "doubt"?
Is there more mental activity arising with one over the other?
When sensations are allowed without interpretation what is left?

The above contemplation is not in any way to negate or disprove the validity of interpreting/labelling feelings, it is about looking into the automatic attachment to preferred feeling states that seems to arise even when it is known that there is no separate self.


I hope this will be an enjoyable exercise :)

[LuzClarita8]

Thank you!! Still working on this! <3

[LuzClarita8]

<3 I'm pretty much done, but I wanna just give it one more contemplation tomorrow, to see what happens! :) <3

[Noro]

Thanks for letting me know, take your time :) R

[LuzClarita8]

What is "relief"? What does that word seem to be pointing to? Is a reference point of comparison needed whereby "relief"? is noticed rather than feeling "worried?
What silent self-talk is going on in the back-ground? i.e. "This is good." "It's gone well!"

Relief is a thought bundle that seems to point to a definable set of sensations in the body. Within the ‘relief thought bundle’ there’s a comparison thought, that says “I feel better than I did before because things have improved.”
The thought bundle seems to point to an ‘I,’ a ‘better than,’ a ‘before,’ a ‘because’ (cause and effect), ‘things (external conditions) and ‘improved’ (over time). All of these are thoughts.
The comparison thought appears as part of relief in the relief thought bundle.

What is "enjoyment"? Again, what does that word seem to be pointing to? Does it need a reference point as a comparison to a more "neutral" or even "Not enjoyment" state?
Does "enjoyment" seem to be relating to external conditions whereby there is a separate "something" that is overlaying what is happening with that interpretation?

The word enjoyment seems to be pointing to a definable, identifiable set of sensations in the body, which seem to constitute an emotion experienced by a separate self. The comparison point that seems to distinguish ‘enjoyment,’ from ‘neutral’ and ‘not enjoyment’ occurs as a subtle thought within the enjoyment thought bundle. Yes, the enjoyment thought bundle includes thoughts that seem to point to a separate self relating to external conditions and interpreting these conditions as enjoyable.

Same questions can be asked for "relaxation".... What does "relaxation" seem to be pointing to? What's going on in the body?
Look for any hidden self-talk going on.

The word relaxation seems to point to a separate being who seems to perceive a uniform, definable emotion. Within the body, relaxation seems to entail sensations of softening, lightening and expansion. Self-talk says, “I’m safe.”

And finally a look at "curiosity", a wonderful state to find oneself in!
What seems to be going on when there is "curiosity" ?
And what happens when "curiosity" is no longer available?

Curiosity seems to point to a separate self mentally ‘reaching towards,’ ‘looking,’ ‘paying attention,’ ‘drawn,’ ‘pulled’ but beneath the thought bundle is just the infinite, indescribable sense field.
When curiosity is no longer available, there seems to be heaviness, blockage, and less energy available.

And let's not leave out the state/feeling labelled "doubt." This is of equal importance to look into with curiosity .. What does that word/thought/label "doubt" seem to be pointing to?
How does this word compare with another word/thought/label like "certainty"? What are they pointing to?
How does it feel in the body to feel "certain"?
How does it feel in the body to feel "doubt"?
Is there more mental activity arising with one over the other?
When sensations are allowed without interpretation what is left?

Doubt seems to point to an emotion/thought bundle that includes indecision and confusion regarding a perceived external circumstance and separate self. Ultimately, however, it seems to be a reluctance to let go of thinking. Certainty seems to point to a thought bundle that includes knowing, confidence and safety. Together they seem to point to a spectrum of experience.
Certainty seems to feel more vibratory/energetic; it seems to pull the body into active directional flow. Doubt feels like contraction and anxiety and seems to have a circular, entrapped energy. There seems to be more mental activity arising with doubt and less thought activity arising along with certainty. Without interpretation, only undefined sensation is left, no doubt, no certainty.

[Noro]

That's great Clara, you really dug deep into the contemplation of those states/feelings.

There seems to be more mental activity arising with doubt and less thought activity arising along with certainty. Without interpretation, only undefined sensation is left, no doubt, no certainty.

Yes!


NATURE EXERCISE

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement, always. Only thoughts can seem to distract from this one movement, and actually, they too are part of that one movement.

Now close your eyes and see if there is a line or boundary between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

Now open your eyes.

Is there an inside and an outside of life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

Is witnessing part of the one movement, too?

Can an actual witness be found?

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.