I want to see this!

[graceabounds]

Checking in…

[ManicMonk]

Hello Becca!

Thank you for reminding & thinking of me.

I'm still checking in on myself too - but it's been a bit slow the last days.

On the weekend I had a migraine and generally I've kept myself busy...

Also I rambled a lot into my text editor, but then stopped when I came to the last question / observation task - observing the observer, or like, whether consciousness implies someone or an ego or if perception is just there...

That's a bit of a tricky one maybe, if you try to think about it too long, it's like, abstract, but I also had a little satori / insight moment when I just went up from working and walked to my parents in laws' house when I enjoyed just perception being perception, without having to do anything to "do" it...

But how quickly we (I) forget and i am back to business and not in constant awareness of the beingness of everything - yet!.

Anyhow! I'm still observing, and i'm writing in my text editor, but I haven't finished yet. But maybe now I did? :D Still, i'll go back to it and then paste it in here in the next days. Tonight I need to go to bed early because I have a bad case of underslept-hangover.

---

A little process - related question, if it may be allowed: Ilona Cionaite does a "Seeing through the self illusion" group event tonight which I thought to attend - is that fine with you & our looking process here? Or would you rather have me abstain?

I think it's fine so unless I hear from you, i'll be over there and I'll report back any findings here.

Thank you for having my back!

And all the best

- me

[graceabounds]

I also had a little satori / insight moment when I just went up from working and walked to my parents in laws' house when I enjoyed just perception being perception,

Beautiful!

Get some sleep and yes Ilona’s group is perfectly aligned with the exploration here.

[ManicMonk]

Hello Becca!

Strap in, this is a long one - this is the report I've started previously, with some additional remarks added later, and some observations of my visit of Ilonas' group meeting...

So it's pretty long.

Happy digging! And thank you for doing this.

Here goes nothing:

----

>> Things just seem to be happening out of thin air

> And, is there any evidence that is has not always been this way?

Mmh - yes and no!

One one hand - ultimately - following it back, tracing back, back, back, to an ultimate cause and a conscious mover and decider - there isn't a tiny mouse in the middle of the brain with lots of tiny levers and wheels and monitors, steering it all - and if so, what'd control her decisions, right?

Still - all these years it looked as if there _were_ so many levers to pull.

Strategies and knowledge to learn. Habits to establish. Willpower to be employed. How do you think these taxes _ever_ got done? :D

-> So - yes - jokes aside (for a moment) - on one hand we never went up and up and up the chain of decisions to see where they all spring from.

We explain this by saying "it's from the unconscious" and it kind of makes sense - though it _is_ still spooky. I mean, for thousands of years people modelled and tested and theorized and built this elaborate model of the world - and of us. Trying to trace it all down - but never getting at the main point - there is no _us_ separate from the whole, from the... meat? The body? The processes we spring from and which make us move? And of course, you can extend that to the world around and everything around us. Does the moon not pull at us, if it can pull the oceans to ebb and flow?

---

But there's another point i'm having here: THIS is a world modeled by physics and energy; and we are part of everything.

BUUT - is it really? Isn't it all consciousness what we can... conceive? Everything we perceive is perception - by perception we perceive stuff.

Not sure about that stuff. But I read my Jed McKenna and I know what's up! :) Or, more exactly, I don't know what's up. But SOMETHING is afoot here i'm sure! :D

So i'm still wondering too - is this all real - or just a strange illusion. But not sure we'll ever get there... is there something to be seen into that direction?

---

So, back to your question:

> And, is there any evidence that is has not always been this way?

There has been - I have been contemplating things, schemed, and executed or didn't execute, based on that scheming.

I had a think with myself recently. I was thinking - my head was thinking - my thoughts were thinking:

So the me, who is thinking now, has all this time just thought he is something - and thoughts ourselves to be - and tried to solve things and tried to fix things and to understand things. To be good. And to be helpful and to understand and to do right by others and ourselves. You get my point.

And this mind was kind of talking to itself. And it was wondering. What it means.

What would it mean, if we were just thought patterns going back and forth, trying to figure things out? Did we ever think we were more than that?

I mean, we _tried_ to make sense of it all, all the stories, Christianity, Buddhism, Family, Materialism, Selflessness, Emotions, Familiy, yadda yadda, and to create a unified theory of everything. Including the soul - us.

BUT there always was a question mark; it never was clear; we were never sure about any of this. I lived kind-of with question marks and I think we all do (of course you don't Becca, you're done - right - right?) about a lot of things at all times.

At many times it feels so confused, so.. schizophrenic... we / I live different lives, all at the same time - Part of me does the everyday things, even enjoys quite some of the everyday things; While another part of me is tired of it. And doubts it all - it feels like we should live a different way; I live a life of compromises; it's almost impossible to live in accordance to my beliefs and what I _think_ would be right. And yeah. Who am I. When there are Billions more out there! :)

Anyway, what I wanted to get to: There's part of me that lives like everything doesn't matter; A part of me that lives like it's important to put food on the table, and to clean the dishes and all that. And there are probably even more parts of me wanting different things at all times.

So THAT is where I thought my actions - or inactions - stemmed from. The interactions of all the needs and wants and plans and a melange of those.

Then filtered through layers of subconscious expression and transformation, leading to me expressing these fine thoughts, raw and unfiltered, or sometimes refined and full of finesse... but mostly raw and I let poor Becca sort it out. Sorry! O_O

But - is there _evidence_? I don't know... Not for the hands lifting. But for trains of thoughts - there are thoughts which have been before - and which lead to these thoughts - which seemingly lead to these conclusions. Do these count? :D

>> that in the same way my hands aren't directly controlled by me, these other actions, where I am sometimes SOOO distraught about whether I'm doing the right thing or not - are actually the same. And I could let go of it and I felt lighter when I just did what I went on to do.

> Yes, this is how to Look. Layers of apparent doing will shed. The lightness is a good indicator that the body isn’t carrying the lie of the self-delusion.

But then... there's the question - Can _I_ do _anything_? Who is doing this writing? This analysis? This trying to understand? It is the thing where the Ego has do deconstruct the ego - the "false" self or the thought patterns having to analyze and understand themselves to be just that.

Soooo... can _I_ be more neurotic - focused - concentrated on anything? _Can_ _I_ (who?) "let go of the tiller" or is this just... life happening? Do I even need to worry about this?

Should I worry about this _as_ the old ego / the thinking thing which is still ticking in here me brain? :D

I mean... as long as it's working... I can continue to do my best... no?

Mmmh...

IT IS ALL VERY STRANGE!!!

>> THE FIELD OF THE OBSERVER ALWAYS FELT LIGHT AND FLUFFY

> Next, take a look… is the observer a distinct thing? Is it necessary? A noun? Or is there just observing happening to no one?

This is difficult to observe I feel, it's all so.. liquid? Maybe it shouldn't be difficult. I'll observe. It's just like.. feels like... turning the eyes inwards. I'll give it a go! :)

IS THE OBSERVER A DISTINCT THING?

Mmh.. it's just... kind of assumed... this is what I mean... this one is tricky for me. I'll try to write it out, maybe I can understand something this way...

So... there's this idea in my mind - that in order to see something, there has to be a seer, doing the seeing. Or maybe the perception.

It feel like - i'm in the cinema. _I_ - something - watches the screen; or my surroundings, like my monitors or my coffee cup right now; Without me seeing it.. there'd be nobody seeing it, and there would be no seeing, right? Like, if I close my eyes... there's no seeing the coffee cup.

So in this way... this is hard for me to wrap my head around. Potentially there doesn't need to be a seer, but if "I" leave the room, for sure nothing is seen in that room I just left.

So - is it the same with perception? Wherever I go, there I am - perception is always there. Maybe that's where the idea of a self gets some energy from as well? Always something to perceive "around" (?) so there needs to be a center around which things get perceived?

BUT - how can I figure this out? There is seeing; but I can't perceive a seer. It is not seen :P

So no, I don't see the seer, but trying to "imagine" perceiving without a perceiver kind of breaks my brain :)

Can a perception just "Be"? Is it just floating in midair? :D IDK. Can't abstract that space yet.

> is there just observing happening to no one?

Mmh... do you think there's observations out there just by themselves? O_O i'm not sure I get this :D

-> Any help?


-----------

Also, field report: I went to Ilonas' meeting, and it was very enjoyable.

It was great to be in company with so many other seekers, or finders, sharing and listening to their stories, many of them sounding very familiar. It was a serene and enjoyable experience, even though I felt like a bouncy young dog at times with my excitement in all of this serenity :D

-> Anyways, it was good, and it raised many questions, which is good, I think; and also gave me some new pointers.

I asked about feeling "separate" from the world. It's something I've felt, on or off, for a long time in my life, maybe since I was a kid. I never really felt "part of" the world.

So I spoke about that. And maybe that also helped me to understand that there must still be a "me" that can feel separate; and that there still _is_ a me that is still separate and feels separate from the experiences and perceptions.

Although it's kind of hard to pin down; because when I look for it / him / me it's gone, as you surely know! :D

-> Doesn't keep me from feeling apart though, from time to time! :D

I also learned / heard again of that feeling of "expansion and contraction", which might be a thing that happens to the self;

And we spoke about things coming up and being ready to let go when they are ready and then about accepting them and allowing them as they are.

And I think I feel and can accept things easier nowadays.. and sometimes I just sit in bed and enjoy myself melting away a bit... :D not sure if that's right, but it just feels nice to enjoy being a bit.

In general my life feels reeeally nice at the moment, I don't know if that's a hindrance or a good thing, I take it as a good thing, but it might keep me from my deep soul searching at times.

I've left my old tedious job last year and I am working on an own thing now with a friend. With this I can REALLY follow my strenghts and be in flow literally for hours each day with exciting and fun stuff, and all the time there seems to be more cools stuff coming up.

Soo.. and yeah, the rest of my life is also pretty great - the only issue I have is myself, not going to bed early enough and then being tired, basically.

But otherwise - physically I feel good, i'm doing well enough, i have great people with me and around me. I'm really cruising right now.

So yeah, the only thing here is for me not to stop searching and looking or to marginalize it too much I feel.

I'm interleaving it with the other things I'm doing and I hope the river of life will bring me to wherever I should be at any time! :)

Thank you and that's enough of me for tonight, i'll go to bed now

Hope you're having a nice weekend and that you are healthy and happy :)

[graceabounds]

Hello dear.

I mean, for thousands of years people modelled and tested and theorized and built this elaborate model of the world - and of us. Trying to trace it all down - but never getting at the main point - there is no _us_

Which is also a theory...

Everything we perceive is perception - by perception we perceive stuff.

And yet, what if the 'we' is unnecessary to the perception?

_I_ - something - watches the screen; or my surroundings, like my monitors or my coffee cup right now; Without me seeing it.. there'd be nobody seeing it, and there would be no seeing, right? Like, if I close my eyes... there's no seeing the coffee cup.

The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'DOING' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' etc...

Close your eyes.

With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics. Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?

What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Try to find the observer, (look don't think about it), is there anything there but observing?

At many times it feels so confused, so.. schizophrenic... we / I live different lives, all at the same time - Part of me does the everyday things, even enjoys quite some of the everyday things; While another part of me is tired of it. And doubts it all - it feels like we should live a different way; I live a life of compromises; it's almost impossible to live in accordance to my beliefs and what I _think_ would be right.

Is there a 'you' stepping in and out of choices and different 'lives'? Or are these all thoughts?


_Can_ _I_ (who?) "let go of the tiller" or is this just... life happening? Do I even need to worry about this?

It will let go of itself at some point. And life continues, actions continue, caring continues, only without a center.

I hope the river of life will bring me to wherever I should be at any time!

Can you see how this is transferring the doership outside? ;p
When looking is happening there will be looking, when playing is happening there will be playing.

Much love!

[ManicMonk]

Hello Becca!

Mmh.. i'll go through this, as usual, a step at a time.

Close your eyes.

With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics. Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

Confirmed.

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

No! I'm a hollow fruit! There no machinery to be detected, nothing. Pure empty nothingness, at least no viewer.

You know - it's a strange feeling, thinking like this - it feels like I have no body, i am only what i'm perceiving out of the windscreen of my eyes (and glasses), additional perceptions, bodily of course and mental, like thoughts, but it feels like i'm just.. nothing behind my eyes if that makes sense.

But if we go and look in a mirror - there seems to be more behind that :)

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

Na. Actually - trying to be clever again here - a searching thought can be found, eventually, remembering that I wanted to check this for our process here - but in between - not really a witness to perceive.

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?

What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Try to find the observer, (look don't think about it), is there anything there but observing?

No, there seemingly isn't anyone perceivable to be... perceived.

is there anything there but observing?

What the heck? :D How am I supposed to know of there is observing? Was that a real question or just a throwaway? :D

I can perceive the perceptions - an apple on my tongue, the dark before my eyes - BUT the process of observing or "the observing" itself - i haven't really witnessed that either. If I should have a look - let me know - but I think I did and I can't even perceive the perception, i mean observe the observation, if that makes sense. The things just.. appear by their own accord.

That's what I meant previously with "this can get a bit meta / confusing" to me when trying to focus on an observer & the whole perception operation "inside".

I only perceive. And I am not sure whether that implies an observer, or observing - i mean, it probably does? Otherwise there wouldn't be anything... happening maybe?

But this doesn't really feel penetrable for me right now.

Is there a 'you' stepping in and out of choices and different 'lives'? Or are these all thoughts?

Yes and no! Yes it might be the thoughts which are trying to make sense and/or plan and/or are trying to predict the future and prepare accordingly.

I still consider them an active part of the vehicle of "me" - i mean, it's carrying me around this world, no? And through it I experience, joy and pain, pleasure, boredom and exhilaration...

And I am pretty much down with it trying to do its best job - and actually yeah, _still_ feel committed / connected to the whole thing! Of eg. trying to be an acceptable dad, provider, participant in the society etc. - with an eye on outcomes "I" feel happy about. Pain avoidance, pleasure seeking, that kind of stuff - wanting to be free-ish to do what I want, when I want it, with whom I want, for example.

Ok, so, yes! Peanut Butter and Jelly - Mind and Body - still together over here! And _I_ feel... like i'm an observer - but still rooting strongly for good outcomes if that makes sense? And feeling like if "I" don't give energy towards certain actions + outcomes they just wouldn't happen?

Like eg. writing this now.
Or getting back in the habit to check my daily tasks in the morning / do my planning now and then.

Etc etc.

Mysteries after mysteries! :D

"I hope the river of life will bring me to wherever I should be at any time!"

Yeah - like, i think if i could think / pray / wish for something, then it's the thing I can try, and if it doesn't work, what's the harm -and if I - can't - then what can I do about it? Nothing!

The thing formerly known as "I" does it! :)

Oh man...

What would you suggest to the "I" who still is?

Thank you for your help and all the best!

[graceabounds]

Hi Daniel,

and I can't even perceive the perception, i mean observe the observation, if that makes sense. The things just.. appear by their own accord.

It does make sense. Excellent.

I only perceive. And I am not sure whether that implies an observer, or observing - i mean, it probably does? Otherwise there wouldn't be anything... happening maybe?

Nope. Still happening, just for no one.

still rooting strongly for good outcomes if that makes sense? And feeling like if "I" don't give energy towards certain actions + outcomes they just wouldn't happen?

How many actions do you apparently give action to that don’t happen?

When action occurs does it start with “I” deciding, or does the urge/impulse/energy simply appear, and the body follows?

The old story is: Without me, nothing gets done.
But really without the story (or the central character) life still happens.

Test it out…

But if we go and look in a mirror

OK.

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labeled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labeled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (perhaps legs?) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Much love,
Becca

[ManicMonk]

Hi Becca! Thank you for the detailed description!

I've printed it out so i can "practice" in front of a mirror :)

I've done it once... and I get a bit confused, but mostly by semantics I think.

I'll continue doing it! - and I'll report back!

Just wanted to give you quick feedback. Thank you and enjoy a nice weekend I hope.

Best

Daniel

[graceabounds]

Great.
Step by step with this one. it is one of my favorites :)

[ManicMonk]

Hello Becca!

> Step by step with this one. it is one of my favorites :)

Oh no! No pressure, right? :D

Ok, wall of text incoming! I can feel it! There were a lot of steps, so there's a lot to bounce off of here.

Let me see.

So really... I have to say... sorry... if this is one of your favorites... _I_ don't really get it! :D

I think. Maybe I do. But I probably don't! :D

So I did this now, three days, once, like, first time 2 times short (10 minutes?)), next time i did it more intensely yesterday, it took like, 20 minutes to half an hour maybe? And then again now, i again tried it for like 15 minutes, two "walkthroughs".

I'm kind of a bit avoidant of this one... because it feels kind of _squishy_ to me - I feel like I am not really sure what to look at / look out for.

Cognitively, it all makes sense. Or does it?

> 1. Close your eyes, feel the sensations labelled "body"

Easy peasy! Though "labelling" already sounds like a word pregnant with triple meaning - which I'll just ignore for now.

I'm just feeling into what my current self suspects is the general area of my body. So yeah! I can feel... things in the body. Different thing are going on at different times... But ok!

(No body though? Just the squishy _space_ in which perceptions occur).

Am I right? Am I wrong? Am I going in the right direction? I don't know! Let's continue with step 2.

> 2. Open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

Mmmmhhh yeeeah... and here it's getting difficult for me already... a bit. I mean, I can see where this *could* be going maybe? And maybe I felt a _bit_ of it, but it feels like, really a stretch and having to put my mind into prezels to get me to "disassociate" from the image in the mirror.

So, my reactions? Sooo... yeah... that's me! That's the dude which is me. I don't _feel_ perceptions inside the body over there, but of course I don't because this is my _reflection_, Becca, really! You should know this! :D

-> Anyway... for some moments I can "distance" myself mentally and look at myself "at the abstract". It's a dude over there looking at me! It's an image in the mirror, with no soul by itself... that's actually a bit creepy, imagining / seeing him like that.

Ok! But it doesn't really come naturally, it's like.. i have to really "get myself into it" to really... care, if that makes sense.

> 3. While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Mmh... yes... sometimes, when I squint, mentally, i can try and separate "myself" from the image; and, while I understand that the feelings in my hands are NOT being felt in the mirror, that sounds like, mmh, I mean, isn't that obvious? Yeah - it feels a bit dis-embodied, I'll give it that.

> 4. Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

> Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labeled "hand") and the image of movement? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Ok, yes... I think... is there supposed to be like an aha-moment here? Is it like, from the mirror to the real hand - should I realize something here?

I mean, on one hand (hah!) I get it - but on the other I don't (ah maybe I need to switch hands! :P )

No, sorry, let me start over: I feel, like, things, which _do_ impact the hand and my mind has no issue understanding both that these perceptions are separate _but_ seem to be coming from the same structure.

Like, I can feel it getting heavy if i hold it out for longer; or i can feel something when it's moving, internally, and, IDK, tendons and bones move; OR when there's air blowing over it when I'm waving.

It all seems _pretty_ synchronized - and that's actually exactly what i'd be expecting.

So yeah, that's my - feeling here! A hand, moving, and I have also, synchronously, bodily perceptions. Which seem to be located relative to the location of the hand, at lest not _not_ located incorrectively. So mmh.

I _could_ say that i can perceive both things separately - seeing the hand move and feeling the related bodily sensations - but that seems to me rather academic and not really how it feels to me. I don't _clearly_ see a separation.

Like eg. in the exercise - which hand will be raised next? I literally couldn't draw a connection to the internal mechanics of who ultimately "decides" which hand will be lifted next.

But here... I don't have that feeling of a disconnect or something.

> 5. Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
> Does the image by itself suggest in any way that it is "you" or "your body?"

Mmh.. This is like... I feel like... I don't get how it would _suggest_ that it's me or my body. It's my _mirror image_, not me. So I don't _expect_ it to express to be me or my body. Neither do I associate it as such...?

> Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a "body" at all? Or are there only colours or shapes?

Mmh, see #2. I don't think it suggests anything, it mostly... is there. It's an image of myself in the mirror... Mmh. Don't quite know what to make of this.

If I do anything - lift an arm, blink, wave - it reflects my intention (and the parts of my body I can see). So... the synchronous movements suggest the connections here (would you label that "thought" - that I "think" that these two are connected, but that doesn't mean that they are? I can understand that, but it doesn't change my seeing of things.)

> Or are there only colours or shapes?

Mmh, hard to tell - it's an image I guess, a moving picture?

> 6. Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (perhaps legs?) cannot be seen

Verified! :)

> Just by the image in the mirror, is there any 'knowledge' that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

I mean... logically and intellectually... yes, the image itself doesn't "suggest" anything outside it's borders... doesn't mean there's nothing THERE if i move my leg up or my perspective! - But... mmh. That by itself isn't really a surprise for me...?

> 7. Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don't look directly to any body parts).
> Is there a "body" anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

Yes! I mean no! :)

I'll say that the body itself is barely to be found, or maybe not at all. A bunch of _perceptions_ are there and are coming and going, indicating that something might be happening, but the body itself - not a trace.

> 8. Start to walk slowly.
> Is there a "body walking", or are there just sensations?

Just sensations.

> Is there actual experience of "walking" at all?

Mmh.. not really... some shifts maybe and some moving of perspective. The walking itself isn't a thing!

> Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT walking?

Mmh.. you give me too much credit here... i'm not even *thinking* of walking, I just started doing it, and now it's - whatever that is now - (my not existing body doing not existing walking motions?) continuing! :)

> Can such a thing as a "body" be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a body?

Mmh... probably... just... thoughts about a body? Mmh... I mean... yeah.. EVERYTHING is deduced... either from visual cues... eg. seeing others, seeing ourselves (-> mirror, hands, looking down), experiencing our "selves" or learning from others and thinking about "ourselves" - _OBVIOUSLY!_ :D

Am I done yet? :D

-> Sorry for the bad jokes, it's just coming out like that :D

Like, I don't really feel done, I don't even know what any of this really _means_! :)

> Can such a thing as "walking" be found?

No such thing does, by itself, indeed, seem to exist. Walking seems to be a mere suggestion to imply a certain kind of shuffling motion in... colors and shapes that look like bodies to people who think they have a self? :D

> 9. Are the sensations localized in space, like "going through the room"; OR is there only an image that is labelled "room" and appearing sensations without any location?


Hey (coming back from a break).

There is no such thing as "going through the room", it's all relative.

I'm like, it could be a fixed camera and someone moves the hallway / rooms around me.

There are perceptions, mental and - "physical?" - and the shifting image of the world around me. The relative position in the room isn't a feeling by itself.

This isn't a totally strange phenomenon to me - I understand that quite well; I'm just not sure what I should do with this.

I think it's all relative - you could see it either way - you move and the world passes - or the world passes and you stand still.

How could it "appear" any different? It's the same thing when sitting in a train, and the train next to you starts moving and your body is confused because it doesn't feel the accelleratio... can make you feel a bit dizzy or panicky for a moment :D

Or think of the VR glasses - how quickly we believe! That the world around us is. Different.

But yes.

I understand this. And I understand that I don't feel / notice / am aware of many things one might *think* one would be aware of, but instead, mostly a field of beingness / something existing - where the body is supposed to be - and in that area then different perceptions appear.

---

You know, i'll just send that now, because I want to do more! Or something else! Or... more of the same! Whatever you say! :)

It's like, with this one, it doesn't really click for me...

What do you make of this?

How would you recommend me to proceed?

Thank you and all the bestest in the world

I'll go to bed, happy to have done my homework :)

See you soon and thank you for having me! :)

[graceabounds]

Hi!

Oh no! No pressure, right? :D

Forget I said anything hahaha :p
And perfect. You went through every step, did the looking, and didn’t fake it. :)

I _could_ say that i can perceive both things separately - seeing the hand move and feeling the related bodily sensations - but that seems to me rather academic and not really how it feels to me.

I'm just not sure what I should do with this

There is no “big aha” here, just simple seeing that the body, the self, the experience of “being someone inside” is never directly found. Only images, sensations, thoughts and stories about it. Always one step removed and assembled after the fact.

Even wanting more and feeling like it’s just academic is just an appearance…. Can you find the one who is disappointed? Or just disappointment floating around in experience?

The hope for an aha, a special feeling, a profound realization is just another story. Something that is not here now.

For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: 
 Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all color. 
 Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them. 
 And notice that you're not making them happen. 
 You're not
conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of. 
 And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience. 
 You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.


For the next day or two, do nothing special. Just whenever you remember, notice:
Is there anything here except for what’s appearing?
Is there a “body” or a “self” directly, or just the story/feeling/label of one?
If a feeling of “this isn’t enough” shows up, can you find who it belongs to?

[ManicMonk]

Hello Becca, thank you very much for your nice suggestions and feedback. I just wanted to tell you that over the last few days, after I did the exercises, I felt more aware and I took more notice of the beingness of myself in the world. I also noticed this brought back a bit more laid-backness and generally more acceptance of things as they are, which i also experienced strongly a few months ago when I felt a kind of ego-bubble "pop" in my mind (?) when looking for the "I" inside.

I noticed I sometimes have feelings of guilt and shame, and I noticed they're just feelings and then actually thoughts that happen but I don't really know why. It's interesting—like, okay, I don't have to go into that. I can just note that it's there and continue with being and doing. Just because I had this as an echo or a memory doesn't mean I have to be influenced by it any more than by its appearance.

I started reading Ilona Ciunaite again—she sent out a new workbook to the email list—and the first piece had a quote: "What's left when all the words are gone, when there are no more words and no more stories to tell?" I kind of got that and found it interesting. If the labeling stops, if you stop constantly commenting on and thinking about everything and instead just let it be, things become much less convoluted. The things just are; they appear without being covered by thought patterns. We explore and discover and then immediately start telling stories about it. It's nice not to do that, or to let it go a little and scale back the thinkiness a bit... I kind of grasped a little of what it's about with talking and labeling and the story of us. This makes more sense now than it did before.

Just some impressions from my side. Thank you very much. I'll continue in the next days and check in on the things you suggested.

What is there except for what is appearing?
Is there a body or a self, or just stories & feelings & labels of one?
If a feeling of "this isn't enough" shows up, try to find who it belongs to!

Thank you and have a nice weekend!

[graceabounds]

Very good.

Is there someone doing laid-backness or acceptance? Who takes ownership of letting it be?

Does there need to be a note taker of feelings or experience?

🙏🏻

[ManicMonk]

Hello Becca!

I'm still around, still there! Still thinking I gotta do things, I gotta do things.

Like - finding this darndest thing, this Gateless Gate! It sure isn't easy to find, because what is a Gate without a Gate... right... right?!?! OH NOW is that actually a pretty good hint? :D

A self without a self... is... disappearing in a puff of logic? :D

IDK.

So - i'm not hardcore into this right now, not as much as I was before Christmas maybe - i'm taking it slower - and trying to enjoy life, which I feel is going quite nicely right now. I feel less stressed than ever, I think, and I'm taking better care of myself, in general, I feel.

I feel i've disengaged a lot from criticising and fretting about things in general...

But I'm not sure whether I'm making any headway either - i've been keeping myself pretty busy with a new business opportunity, which is, surprisingly enough, actually fun to work on! That is new and slightly confusing, at times, it does't really feel like work... :D

But yeah, it's been keeping this one over here buys.

So - one thing that pops up now and then is the difference between these thoughts and "stories" we so often are busy with - or are constructing out world out of - or scaffolding our navigational systems out off when trying to make sense of the world - vs the direct experience of eg. looking, touching, feeling, hearing etc.

I feel both are "real", but different - the perceptions are real, and the thoughts are real, but different.

Is this Gateless Gate somewhere in the vincinity of either of those ways of perception per chance? Just asking for a friend...?

Hoping you're doing well! I'll be looking in and writing some more when I get around to it, there's carnival here and family stuff the next days, so i'll probably be more relaxed again next week, but you never know.

I'll stay vigilant for any gateless gates crossing my path and will report back with what perception percieved.

Best wishes

Daniel

[graceabounds]

As you are seeing, a gateless gate is not even something that can be defined or known… only ‘experienced’

So to answer your question the thoughts cannot get you there.

Sure thoughts exist. They are ‘real’ but the content is just fantasy… trying to figure out a Gateless Gate for example.

Happy Carnival. Sounds like a perfect invitation to explore direct experience. Everything is a perfect invitation…