Step 5, doubt, and wanting to be done with this

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Feb 4 reply

Hey Pablo, thank you again for sticking with me and helping me through this.

Can you help me understand the thoughts and the experience of believing them? Describe in detail, as much as you can, please.

Yes, the thoughts say that I am not done, that there is more work to do, further to go. they compare this moment, this experience to what I have read/heard of awakening, mainly Angelo Dilulo who says that awakening is a shift in identity out of thoughts, and the gateless gatechrashers/LU book, which people say ‘they know there is no self’ or that it becomes clear after the fact. These are 100% expectations but not sure what to do about them. there’s also belief that they are true, that it makes sense to follow it, since my experience does not have certainty, nor has there been any shift in identity.

As for the actual experience of believing them, it seems so normal, it just feels like I thought them. Like I just did it, or went along with it. And being honest, it then feels like I messed up or was caught in thoughts. Which, writing this is obvious is just attention being in thoughts, but even writing this it only seems so in retrospect. the thoughts popping up now feel the same, feel like they are MY thoughts, my dialogue, my narration. Not like thoughts popping up, or another appearance, but like they are speaking about my state, that 'I' am thinking.

A lot of doubt right now about everything is appearing.

This I touched on above, but really I think it might be my fault. I am so used to seeking that I didnt even notice until after the fact but I began watching non duality videos again (mostly Angelo Dilulo from simply always awake), which is then causing a lot of doubt about everything since what he points to is—understandably—different than liberation unleashed.

Should I stop? I feel both guilt and even more doubt which makes the urge to watch/listen to pointers stronger.

The doubt is appearing as comparison between the two pointings, but mostly about this experience. It just feels like if I were to say I have seen through it, then it’d be spiritual bypassing or something. It is understood logically but not known, and theres expectations still that there can be an experiential knowing, not just conceptual.

Then it feels like I need to see through this now or never, as I always heard that you wake up now or never, but there is also belief that this is a gradual process of looking until identity shifts, and once that happens it’ll be clear.

Not to mention the frustration/doubt about how to orient towards that gap I mentioned earlier without doing/trying.

It has been mostly a cycle of this lately. Doubt, frustration, some more doubt, certainty in knowing what to do/how to wake up, only to then doubt it all some more. Alongside a feeling of not progressing/nothing changing, which just adds fuel to the fire.

There’s conflicting expectations/belief that this just needs one moment to tear through the I illusion, and that there needs to be a lot of staying in gaps/unknown until it shifts by itself. That it takes time so to speak.

Even more doubt are the question of practice: do i just give my full focus to inquiry into what is going on, what this moment is, who is here/what is this, all the time? or should the looking be directed at hidden (or not so hidden) expectations and beliefs? the roadblocks?

Lastly, there is fear that up till now all I've done is refine this conceptual understanding and that any time I write or appear as if I am near the edge or close to anything, it is just because I become good at parroting/saying the right words. Thoughts are still so captivating that there is fear like I'm being fake.

Sorry for the long length, I can both see that this is mostly believing thoughts, but it is how things feel like if im being fully honest right now.

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In reading my answer to your second reply it seems to be mostly conceptual and thinking about it, not really direct looking so not sure if this is a proper answer at all.

Also, please list the evidence for and against a self that fires the neurons that result in thoughts and actions.

putting it in terms of neurons firing, the belief in a self doing that seems silly. Really silly, actually, makes it all rather nonsensical.

Gosh what a good way to phrase it.

Let me take a look at the evidence:

For:
- thoughts constantly affirm it.
- In experiencing, there is a duality that is being experienced of objects being seen by this body. Which while not affirming a self, it makes it seem like it does. which is blurry reasoning, not valid at all.
- thought says there is a feeling that I am here. A feeling of me.
- directing of the attention/intention.
- we talked about this before, and it helped, but even logically it seems the understanding isn’t fully there. the distinction between deliberate and intentional isn’t seen yet, and the movement of attention seems owned. which writing this down is clearly circular reasoning. Evidence for a self is that attention feels like it is moved by a self, but how can that be evidence if it presupposes ownership.
- now thought says ‘anything the looker sees cannot be the looker’ which is true, but there is no evidence for a looker either.
- this thought too just seems to come down to: if there was no one there, why is experience just happening by itself? it seems more likely—logically it is equally likely BUT—it seems that it is appearing to someone, that this is for the entity looking. but that too, is clearly thought and really just belief based on the common view of reality, of how things are, because what is to say that things couldn’t be like that? nothing.
- Pondering that i felt a similar pull to the gap, like the question ‘could this be happening to no one?’ or ‘how is it that there is something?’ that area of questioning feels natural.


thought is trying really hard to figure out what it is that seems to point to there being a self but really it just seems to be thoughts themselves. the act, or rather the appearance of thoughts alongside the feeling of the thoughts being mine. This seems to be all the evidence which is really no good either. But this is not looking at what that feeling of identification with thoughts is, it is just thinking about it.


Against:
- whenever I look at experience, or do the relaxed/open practice, there is no self to be found apart from in thought. there are thoughts that say there is a feeling of self, of separation, of identification etc, but looking never finds anything of that sort (although identification and separation and experience doesnt change). not even the sensation that could be under the label. there are just the thoughts saying that.
- there is never any entity or thing outside of the experience/appearance.
- there are fleeting gaps where the belief seems to shake a tad, the gaps i mentioned before.


It feels awkward to keep saying thank you at these messages but I truly just keep feeling like I have to express it because it just wells out. But you’ve been here so im sure you get it so ill keep it brief for a while (if i can),

Thank you Pablo.

[bluzulu]

thought is trying really hard to figure out what it is that seems to point to there being a self but really it just seems to be thoughts themselves. the act, or rather the appearance of thoughts alongside the feeling of the thoughts being mine. This seems to be all the evidence which is really no good either.

So if the evidence for and against, were weighed, which makes the most sense?

But this is not looking at what that feeling of identification with thoughts is, it is just thinking about it.

How does the thinking about it happen? Just more thoughts appearing, or is “someone’ doing the thinking.
From direct experience, please.

thought is trying really hard

Hmm. Thought is some thing that is trying?

Pondering that i felt a similar pull to the gap, like the question ‘could this be happening to no one?’ or ‘how is it that there is something?’ that area of questioning feels natural.

Ah yes, the crux of it.
Can experience exist without some self experiencing it that is not itself experience?

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Hey, sorry for not replying. I got sick out of nowhere and yesterday was pretty bad.

Is it fine if i take a day or two off?

I want to be 100% in answering your questions.

[bluzulu]

Of course it's ok; your conscientiousness is consistently appreciated here.

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Hey Pablo! Ready to get back in and get this done and dusted :)

While I was sick, I just indulged in whatever way I wanted to spend time and so a lot of the desire thoughts that kept popping up in the past week were followed and yup it is nice to be refreshed how empty it is! Momentary enjoyment which then makes way to a new feeling of not enough, haha. It was definitely very helpful to be reminded of how the suffering/happiness treadmill works.

So if the evidence for and against, were weighed, which makes the most sense?

Interesting that the answer came quickly as a thought saying it is more clear that there is a self, but weighing the evidence it points towards there being no self here.

How does the thinking about it happen? Just more thoughts appearing, or is “someone’ doing the thinking.
From direct experience, please.

Thoughts just appear. There is the sound of cutting grass, fingers typing, and thoughts appearing. Then doubt appears too, which is just more thoughts appearing. Then some more thoughts, but they only ever appear.

Hmm. Thought is some thing that is trying?

No, definitely not. thoughts only appear one at a time, although sometimes it can feel like there is so many rushing in. But thoughts are not an entity of themselves that can ‘try’ or do anything.

Can experience exist without some self experiencing it that is not itself experience?

It definitely can. After all, the belief that it couldn’t, which is the only argument against it being so, is just hearsay and popular. Neither of which means anything.

One thing that happened over the weekend, was a softening of the impatience, the urge to control the timeline of all this. There were so many thoughts about when the shift would occur, what or how it should be done, so much trying to will this into happening. It does not appear to have gone away, but it has lessened now. The thoughts make less sense now, and since this is the only thing that is real, whether it happens in five seconds or five decades, it matters not.

[bluzulu]

I’m so glad you took that time off!

Momentary enjoyment which then makes way to a new feeling of not enough, haha. It was definitely very helpful to be reminded of how the suffering/happiness treadmill works.

Beautiful Lucas. I’d like to hear more about how the feeling of not enough relates to suffering/happiness. Is the feeling itself suffering, or is it the expectation of what should be happening’?

Thoughts just appear. There is the sound of cutting grass, fingers typing, and thoughts appearing. Then doubt appears too, which is just more thoughts appearing. Then some more thoughts, but they only ever appear.

Nicely expressed!

One thing that happened over the weekend, was a softening of the impatience, the urge to control the timeline of all this.

Great. What happens in your body/brain/nervous system when the urge to control appears?

There were so many thoughts about when the shift would occur, what or how it should be done, so much trying to will this into happening. It does not appear to have gone away, but it has lessened now.

Can you be specific about that “shift”, please?
Do you want those thoughts to stop, and if so why?

this is the only thing that is real, whether it happens in five seconds or five decades, it matters not.

Is “this” the sound of cutting grass, fingers typing, and thoughts appearing? Or something else?
And what doesn’t matter, and why does it not matter?

Happy for you,
/p

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I’d like to hear more about how the feeling of not enough relates to suffering/happiness. Is the feeling itself suffering, or is it the expectation of what should be happening’?

Answering now only come from thoughts, the feeling of not enough is not present right now so im not able to base this off of direct experience, but with that in mind it seems that the feeling itself does not cause suffering, but rather the reaction. By that I mean, the not enough feeling is something akin to boredom, a feeling that right now this is not sufficient, which only appears really if there is expectations of how this should be. Still, the expectation itself/the boredom does not cause the suffering, but rather the reaction/feeling like it needs to be covered up/not bored is what causes it. It’s the: “this is boring, and it shouldn’t be.” Which is actually just another expectation haha. That boredom shouldn’t be here. Expectation/resistance.

What happens in your body/brain/nervous system when the urge to control appears?

I don’t know… could you clarify what you mean? Are you asking what the feeling of control is like? The impulse feeling? I used urge metaphorically but the actual feeling of the urge of control is a good question because I don’t think I have ever looked into it.

Can you be specific about that “shift”, please?

The shift, I mean when identification with thoughts is seen to be an empty circus. There is no me in actuality so thoughts can also be enjoyed as just appearances without any special meaning or identity attached. A sort of point of no return, where the illusion can’t ever return to how it used to be.

Do you want those thoughts to stop, and if so why?

Not stop, just ‘I’ don’t want to identify with them anymore. Which writing it down also won’t ever happen because there is no I…so it goes back to seeing through no self, since if no one here, then no one can identify with the thoughts.

Is “this” the sound of cutting grass, fingers typing, and thoughts appearing? Or something else?

No, this was poorly communicated on my part. By ‘this’ I meant this nonduality business, direct experience, what is actually going on. What attention is, what consciousness is, how is it that all of this stuff is happening.

And what doesn’t matter, and why does it not matter?

It is funny that you ask because i spten a good couple minutes having had the thought of that sentence and then debating typing it out because I felt that it did still matter when the shift happens (that is what I meant by what matters: when the shift happens) and would rather it happen soon. But the sentiment that grew over these last few days was that this will happen when it happens and there’s no forcing it, just looking.

Thank you for the great questions :)

[bluzulu]

Beautiful Lucas. Just beautiful. Thank you for your continuing sincere, complete and deep looking answers.

how is it that all of this stuff is happening

Is that the same as asking why is there something rather than nothing? Even if we could peer into what was before the big bang, wouldn’t we have the same question?

this will happen when it happens and there’s no forcing it, just looking.

Great. Is there somebody doing the looking, or might that just be something the brain is doing, based on some deeply held belief?
And if so, what might that belief be?

[bluzulu]

oh, forgot to answer your question about the urge to control.
Yes, please tell me about the feeling of the urge to control.
Where is it in your body?
What happens in your nervous system/body when that urge to control appears?

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Hey, for some reason I only got a notification that you replied now... I completely missed your reply at 10

Is that the same as asking why is there something rather than nothing? Even if we could peer into what was before the big bang, wouldn’t we have the same question?

yup, same vein of question. i noticed this happened a couple more times today too. not chasing anything in particular but some question of this type pops up and then i look at what is happening and it seems odd that there is something at all. like the very fact that there is experiencing seems interesting and attention just stays there for a moment or so. afterwards, when thoughts pop up again, it's like 'oh, it happened again.' its definitely not looking for an answer but more of a noticing with a curious attitude, almost like a 'oh, how odd' observation. feels very natural and the way.

Great. Is there somebody doing the looking, or might that just be something the brain is doing, based on some deeply held belief?
And if so, what might that belief be?

quick answer is, it could definitely be just looking by itself. but both this and the later urge question i want to explore more in depth before i move on based on logic/memory/concepts, so i'll follow up on this tomorrow morning!

best wishes,
lucas

[bluzulu]

:-)

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Hey, took longer than imagined, mostly due to beliefs that looking is boring/an aversion to explore, which is so odd that the beliefs/feelings are there since every time looking happens it feels quite nice and is enjoyable... nonetheless aversion is still very much on going.

Yes, please tell me about the feeling of the urge to control.
Where is it in your body?
What happens in your nervous system/body when that urge to control appears?

you know, i am not sure whether there is an urge/feeling associated with control anymore. i look at what is happening, and the only 'controlling' that happens is thoughts. while just exploring what i did notice, that seemed so odd, was that there's never surprise in the content of thoughts. Like i never know where thoughts are going, where they come from, or where they end up, but no surprise anywhere. it does not seem to be like watching a movie i've never seen before, which is really what is happening. there seems to be a subtle thought-feeling that i can't seem to find in addition to the actual content-thought, which makes it seem as if it is me thinking.

the urge to control could also be a feeling in the body but i cant find it, or it is too subtle right now.

Great. Is there somebody doing the looking, or might that just be something the brain is doing, based on some deeply held belief?
And if so, what might that belief be?

in those gaps i mention, it is like there is a questioning of things that i keep assuming are fact, like reality is real, i was born, im here, etc, not verbal or actually thought based but just it opens, at which point it does not feel like anyone looking because the attention is just in the looking. every other moment though, it feels like someone is looking and that by looking it will get to the gap, which in a paradoxical way kinds makes sense. there's no one that is doing the looking but at the same time doing the looking gets to the point where experience matches the nondual theory haha.

to the question of the deeply held belief, i think that it is something akin to purpose or context. I've been playing around with the idea of context and how everything humans do, they only do because they create some context in which the doing has meaning, and there might be fear or something of that sort which makes it so that this brain is holding on to context and is afraid of letting go. the context being that there is still a practice that can be done to 'cause' the shift. the last doing, until that is seen through as well. and to be honest, this seems true. when attention is in more entertaining things, or in university things, everything seems to be forgotten and thoughts seem factual and true. every time the gap happens, it is when i am walking around, and do the relaxed open practice with an intention to just be curious that there is this happening.

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the urge to watch/read/consume some distraction happens and is still followed quite a bit, but when sitting outside, or in between moments, just exploring experience is fun too.

and there is also less expectation or anxiousness about waking up now from exploring experience. its just sorta of curious and there's noticing of so many odd things more and more.

now sitting on a bench, staring out, it is so weird that there isnt a back/behind the visual field. well, that isn't weird, the weird thing is that it DOESN'T seem weird at all! like what?? the visual field is just here, sorta of floating, with no visible boundary but that is also never questioned... it's like noticing little things like that are always here, but also different because just thinking about them is not the same as noticing it now.

fun things!

[bluzulu]

Hey, took longer than imagined, mostly due to beliefs that looking is boring/an aversion to explore, which is so odd that the beliefs/feelings are there since every time looking happens it feels quite nice and is enjoyable... nonetheless aversion is still very much on going.

I can well imagine that after years of energetic and apparently frustrating looking the act has acquired an aversive quality 😊
In full detail, what exactly is happening these days that you describe as ‘looking’?
And how much effort is involved?

Like i never know where thoughts are going, where they come from, or where they end up, but no surprise anywhere.

Interesting. How much attention are all those thoughts getting versus all the other experiences happening?

….There seems to be a subtle thought-feeling that i can't seem to find in addition to the actual content-thought, which makes it seem as if it is me thinking.

Not understanding that sentence. Can you rephrase, please?

the urge to control could also be a feeling in the body but i cant find it, or it is too subtle right now.

Lucky you!

in those gaps i mention, it is like there is a questioning of things that i keep assuming are fact, like reality is real, i was born, im here, etc, not verbal or actually thought based but just it opens, at which point it does not feel like anyone looking because the attention is just in the looking.

Nice. There is an experience of the arm moving when it moves, no? Might there not be an experience of the brain searching? If so, does that mean there is a self inside causing the neurons of the brain to do that search? Or that there is something that is experiencing that experience?

every other moment though, it feels like someone is looking and that by looking it will get to the gap, which in a paradoxical way kinds makes sense. there's no one that is doing the looking but at the same time doing the looking gets to the point where experience matches the nondual theory haha.

Yes, that’s it! Beautifully said!

to the question of the deeply held belief, i think that it is something akin to purpose or context. I've been playing around with the idea of context and how everything humans do, they only do because they create some context in which the doing has meaning, and there might be fear or something of that sort which makes it so that this brain is holding on to context and is afraid of letting go.

Some interesting insights may (or may not) arise from that question if there is not an effort to answer it but just allowing the question to be there.
For now, though, let’s keep our focus on whether the body/brain is operating under even partial control of something other than the natural ongoing interaction between an organism and it’s environment. Are thoughts and other experiences just part of the natural unified flow of the universe, or is are there a bunch of little selves in charge of what human organisms do? And, if everything in the universe is one unified flow, including living organisms, what is the experience of being a living organism like? If there is no self or selves, what is left?

the context being that there is still a practice that can be done to 'cause' the shift. the last doing, until that is seen through as well. and to be honest, this seems true. when attention is in more entertaining things, or in university things, everything seems to be forgotten and thoughts seem factual and true. every time the gap happens, it is when i am walking around, and do the relaxed open practice with an intention to just be curious that there is this happening.

Is there a self inside that decides to do the relaxed open practice, or does it just happen? And when it is happening, is there a wordless knowing that it is happening?
Could the brain be learning that it is more adaptive and skillful to be in the relaxed open practice mode, but all the same just still learning?

The urge to watch/read/consume some distraction happens and is still followed quite a bit, but when sitting outside, or in between moments, just exploring experience is fun too.

So, does it seem like only after being in some imagined state of awake/liberated/enlightened will it be ok to enjoy other things in life?

and there is also less expectation or anxiousness about waking up now from exploring experience. its just sorta of curious and there's noticing of so many odd things more and more.

Yes, Yes!

now sitting on a bench, staring out, it is so weird that there isnt a back/behind the visual field. well, that isn't weird, the weird thing is that it DOESN'T seem weird at all! like what?? the visual field is just here, sorta of floating, with no visible boundary but that is also never questioned... it's like noticing little things like that are always here, but also different because just thinking about them is not the same as noticing it now.

If so, YES YES YES!