Step 5, doubt, and wanting to be done with this

[avare]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
From my understanding, seeing through the illusion of self is the end of seeking. The beginning of the end of the compulsion to constantly control and change how reality is. The seeing through that the judger, the constant 'not-enough', 'should/should-not' voice is no-one's. Just a labeling. Something automatic, and not serious. Just being.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like confirmation whether I crossed the gate after going through the seven steps from the liberation unleashed book, or if it's just self-delusion and belief. If it is, then someone who can help me see through it and be done with it.

As I am right now, this character's story, is that of caring only about this, caring only about waking up. I read Jed Mckenna's trilogy and connected with the ideas, to such an extent that my life has become less and less outward, doing less activities, doing the bare minimum of 'living' and converging everything towards this. I don't feel like I am living a lie, but I want to. Anything apart from this, from seeing through illusion, seems like I am just running away, distracting myself; procrastinating.

But at the same time there's doubt that all this is some egoic escapism. I just want to be done with it and I don't care anymore what happens afterwards. Just, I feel stuck not being able to live, if that makes sense. Like if I were to do anything else, I could never let myself do it, it would just be constant self-judging sucking the life out of anything. I tried, but all I can do is this. But I don’t want to just seek for the rest of my life, because I know I could. I see the possiblity, the appeal of never ending the seeking. It scares me.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect someone who can be tough with me, who can see through any bullshit that I might be hiding. Although I dont know if that is what is blocking the way to clear seeing, if it is I’d like someone who can help me through it, who help me tear the walls down and be fully honest.

Getting past the point where I have to believe in no-self, where there’s so much doubt. Really, help. I want some help because I can see myself falling into distraction or delusion, doing a whole lot of anything but actually honest looking.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’m a 19 (male) college freshman, and I got interested in spirituality about 2 years ago, with the power of now. From then I would stints of spending a couple weeks only caring about spirituality where I would meditate religiously (haha) or binge watch spirituality youtube.

I moved from the power of now to more non-dual content, Moojiji, Rupert Spira, Francis Lucille, Fred Davis, Angelo Dilulo. I read most of their books, and tried to just ‘be’ or practice self-inquiry. Although being honest, I cannot say that I gave self-inquiry a proper effort.

Around two months ago, I read ‘Refuting the external world’ by Goran Backlund, and really connected with his style of investigation. From there he recommended Jed McKenna’s enlightenment trilogy and I ate it all in one sitting in the span of a couple of days.

Since then I’ve been using Spiritual Autolysis (writing things down, being honest and trying to get to something true w/o it being belief-based), prayer, and in general trying to build my discontent and direct my energy towards waking up and being honest about reality is.

After coming across the liberation unleashed book, I knew that this was what I had to do, the only logical step to take: seeing through the illusion of self, of control. I spent the last few days devouring the book and going through the seven steps to the best of my ability being as honest as I can. I don’t feel a shift and doubt whether I crossed the gate, so I will keep revisiting the steps and looking until I can say with certainty I have seen through it. I came to ask for help and have someone who I can talk to and be fully honest with!

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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[bluzulu]

Hi Avare, my name is Pablo and I am happy to offer to be your guide. That you are so motivated, and have such a great “spiritual” foundation at such a young age is so exciting for me.

To make the process smoother, will you please do the following and then get back to me?

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not ...” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you
have read them http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you
have read it. http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also, the LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

A few other tips:
When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being
answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please
watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a
clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then
copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the L.U.
system software wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do so as well.

And when you have done the above, please tell me about the feeling/belief that things should be different from the way they are happening at any given time. For example, with whatever is happening with you now; feelings, thoughts, beliefs. Not in the future, but at any given Now.

Happy for you,
Pablo
PS If our time schedules permit, and you wish to do so, I would very much like to do Zoom sessions every week or so. I find the real time interaction to be very productive.

[avare]

First reply
Hi Pablo! Thank you for replying to this, and helping me. I can’t begin to say how grateful I am.

I confirm that I read (and re-read) the terms and conditions, disclaimer, and FAQ’s. By the way, my name is Lucas.

I am 100% committed to this, and really outside of school obligations, this is all i think (and more recently, look) into. Apart from making sure I reply to the best of my abilities every day, I am definitely very keen to doing zoom sessions whenever you the time permits!

I am in the EST time zone (https://time.is/EST), and in terms of schedule, thursday, saturday, and sunday i am free all day, and mon-wed and friday, generally after 5pm :)

And when you have done the above, please tell me about the feeling/belief that things should be different from the way they are happening at any given time. For example, with whatever is happening with you now; feelings, thoughts, beliefs. Not in the future, but at any given Now.

Right before checking my email and seeing that a reply was posted, i was writing about this,what a lovely coincidence. Right now, the feeling that things should be different is a narrative—that I almost always subscribe to— that I am not awake/not enough, because I am not having a non-dual experience. There is great frustration and impatience, with a repeated pattern of just wanting to be done with this to then go do things that are actually fun, things that ‘I’ actually want to.

Then I sort of catch myself, or notice that these are thoughts, and do my best to question the feeling/thought, looking for who is having it, and looking at what is going on now, not ‘what i want in the future’.

Sometimes there is frustration about being identified with thoughts, which of course is funny because that only happens if there was identification with the frustration, in a very ironic loop. But still, there is frustration with not practicing properly, which is probably because of expectations that something should be happening when it’s not, as well as constant doubt. Doubt about whether I am wasting my time, doubt that this is a practice that will lead to nowhere, a lot of doubt stemming from comparing what I am doing to what a ‘typical’ spiritual person is doing. If it seems like what I am doing is too similar to meditation, the narrative is very sticky in doubting that I am wasting my time, probably because I read so many accounts of people meditating, seeking, for decades, for nothing to happen.

Unrelated to your first question, but I wanted to let you know as well since it seemed apt to the point of focusing purely on LU, what I had been doing these past few days until receiving this notification was focusing purely on asking/exploring ‘who?’ to everything happening. Who is this occurring to? who is seeing/hearing/feeling this, I know this—who?, what is actually going on right now? why this? how? to who? etc, whenever I noticed attention on thought or imagination.

Thank you again for replying! Very excited and eager.

[bluzulu]

That thorough and well considered answer is much appreciated, Lucas! I’m in a small pueblo in central Mexico, which until EST changes in the spring is one hour earlier than EST.

Wow! Sounds like exhausting work, all that seeking!! Perhaps you can try just relaxing into our experience here.

The inquiry could be “who wants to be liberated?” and “who’s asking who wants to be liberated?” and “who’s asking who’s asking?”
And the answer would be the same as to “Who is it that catches myself, who is it that notices thoughts?” or "What is the self that catches the self that is caught?
And the same as “who is frustrated?”
And “who doubts?”

Care to take a shot at what the answer is, and why?

Hint: it’s likely the one thing in common all the people you have been studying are saying.

/p

[bluzulu]

one more thing.
The word “you” is very tricky. For example, the you as implied by “perhaps you can just try relaxing.” Whether that sentence results in an intention to relax, and whether Lucas’ muscles relax and mental effort relaxes, is all a matter of the conditioning of what some call the natural you, the biological organism that is fully an ever changing aspect of the natural universe that began with, as far as we know, what is called the Big Bang.

This is in contrast to an imaginary you that, for example, may do something in the imagined future or the imagined past.
Or is….. 😊

The natural you is very likely to laugh for quite a while when all this takes hold.

[avare]

Thank you for the reply, and just let me know when you’d like to zomm :)

the ‘you’ comment really helped me clear things up. previoulsy when i spent some time focusing on direct experience and working with vince’s chatgpt trained on his content, i looked and could see there was no self but then the mind quickly co-opted that and feelings of ‘well what now?’ ‘what do i do?’, ‘there’s no non-dual experience’ came up, and i went back in to seeking thinking ‘I’ as the willer had to keep going.

Intellectually i understand that it is all just reactions, just a biological computer acting with its programming and conditioning to every situation.

The inquiry could be “who wants to be liberated?”

A thought appears, says ‘me’, ‘i want to’ , but looking at experience, there is just seeing, hearing, feeling (taste and smell too, albeit not prominent) and there’s no one anywhere to be liberated. thoughts even feel silly, like what of this needs to be liberated?

“who’s asking who wants to be liberated?” and “who’s asking who’s asking?”

when I ask (urgh language!) the thought ‘it feels like me, i am asking’ pops in. but if i try to investigate what about experience points to it, i can’t even find the ‘feeling’ that makes me say ‘feels’ like me. could it be that the ‘feeling’ part i just think bc of habituated tendencies? sort of always believing there is a self and so I think ‘feels’ as a shortcut? or could there actually be a ‘feeling’ that is present? Asking both to you or myself, as I have always sorta felt it was hard to feel into emotions/body, but i suppose emotions =/= sensations, since there is a label too.

And “who doubts?”

Asking this, immediately the thought ‘i think-‘ popped up and i noticed that wouldnt be looking in direct experience and focused back on what is happening. And there’s no one. there is just the senses happening.

looking at things this way, it seems really simple. look at experience, is there a self? no. whenever i look, and disregard thought, i get to the same conclusion. is this just about doing this over and over? until a shift or something happens?

Like you said, there’s just this biological computer always working, and no one at the helm. But it still ‘feels’ like there’s a me because I’m used to it? and then i just go back to looking. Not sure if you’d like to address this, as even I can see that its mostly the mind wanting certainty or to ease its doubt, none of which is real :)


thank you,
Lucas

ps. interesting that after reading you message some fear or resistance came up and i spent the next few hours distracting myself/browsing and only got back to looking now. funny how this body reacts.

[bluzulu]

Cool Lucas.
Very nice.

the thought ‘i think-‘ popped up

and

some fear or resistance came up

Yes, if you agree, let’s try that kind of language as much as possible.

For example, instead of:

i spent the next few hours distracting myself/browsing

distraction and browsing happened for the next few hours.

And

the mind wanting certainty or to ease its doubt

a desire for certainty and lack of the thoughts and feelings of doubt appeared.

And

the mind quickly co-opted that and feelings of ‘well what now?’ ‘what do i do?’, ‘there’s no non-dual experience’ came up, and i went back in to seeking thinking ‘I’ as the willer had to keep going

these feelings and thoughts happened and then seeking and trying happened.

=======
Next.

i suppose emotions =/= sensations, since there is a label too.

Agreed, the words are used in so many ways.

could it be that the ‘feeling’ part i just think bc of habituated tendencies?

Perhaps it is just the feeling of being a living organism? That has long been attributed to some kind of a self inside that is running or at least influencing what is happening?

just a biological computer acting with its programming and conditioning to every situation.

Please give consideration to the difference between a computer (bio or conventional) and living organism and its environment.
And perhaps consider also where is the exact boundary between what happens inside the skin and what happens outside the skin.
Don’t be in a hurry to answer, just let the questions linger.

looking at experience, there is just seeing, hearing, feeling (taste and smell too, albeit not prominent) and there’s no one anywhere to be liberated.

Yes, and let’s include thoughts and other experiences such as emotions and sensations.
Start watching carefully and see if it is possible to see any of these as it is just beginning to happen.

after reading your message some fear or resistance came up

Great! Please just let the feeling be there and do as it will, with absolutely no resistance or judging.
If you just let that go on, eventually some insight will happen…unless it is done with an active seeking of insight.

There’s some concern here that the habit of really putting a lot of effort into this is detrimental. The ‘smartest’ and most modern part of our brains, the neocortex, works best when we are alert, calm and relaxed. Please try this

https://360.articulate.com/review/conte ... 498/review

, and let me know how it goes for you.

Appreciatively,
/p

[bluzulu]

Would you like to Zoom at 5pm this Friday?

[avare]

Would you like to Zoom at 5pm this Friday?

Does 5:15est work? I get out of class right at 4:55 :)

Yes, if you agree, let’s try that kind of language as much as possible.

Hey Pablo, I’m definitely on board here, I definitely see how this way is both more accurate and beneficial.

these feelings and thoughts happened and then seeking and trying happened.

yes! there was no one choosing to do anything, just more happening :)

Please give consideration to the difference between a computer (bio or conventional) and living organism and its environment.

Hmm, just looking at it, there is definitely some separate entity vibes to that concept… more materialistic, less spotaneity, less cohesion. Not sure exactly why, but I can feel it.

And perhaps consider also where is the exact boundary between what happens inside the skin and what happens outside the skin.

this seems a very potent inquiry, would like to keep looking.

Yes, and let’s include thoughts and other experiences such as emotions and sensations.

most of the day today, thoughts were happening with feelings and judging popping up too. an undercurrent of anxiety throughout the day, along a narrative of tests and not enough time/worrying for the future. As well, as multiple times throughout the day after 4ish (when i saw your reply) there were thoughts and feelings of not wanting to disappoint you, or fear of the image you might have of me going down by being honest. as if that ‘image’ matters or is actually here.

most of the day there was self-judging going, about not being able to focus or ‘do’ inquiry or ‘look’ which in the moment feels negative. but from here, it’s obvious that it was just what was happening.

Start watching carefully and see if it is possible to see any of these as it is just beginning to happen.

there was no watching going on towards this yet, just being honest and updating you for now.

There’s some concern here that the habit of really putting a lot of effort into this is detrimental. The ‘smartest’ and most modern part of our brains, the neocortex, works best when we are alert, calm and relaxed. Please try this

I did this exercise and i could feel the tension in the holding the breath, and letting it go down. no release of tension in the rest of the body was felt (perhaps a bit), but I see the benefit so i’ll stay with this.

[bluzulu]

Beautiful Lucas!! Just beautiful!

Your honesty and sincerity are so welcome.

Yes, 5:15 EST will be fine for a Zoom.

What about taking a couple days off from anymore questions from here or answers from there so give more time for focus on tests and maybe, if time, a bit of fun?

If you agree with that, please do continue the B/R whenever it occurs to you, and I'll reply to your post yesterday soon.
If you would rather keep this up rather than take a couple days off, let me know and we can do that, too.

Warmly,
/p

[avare]

Sure Pablo, we can definitely take a couple days off, reconvene friday for the zoom?

best,
Lucas

[bluzulu]

great, see you Friday.
hope you can have some fun.

[bluzulu]

I'm having some trouble with Zoom, will send link asap

[avare]

sure thing :)

let me know if you'd rather i try on my end

[bluzulu]

I'm waiting for the UVA help desk to pick up, but lets go ahead and get started.
so sure, just send to bluzulu@gmail.com.