Mind that loves to philosophize and grab on to concepts and experiences

[ajef]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no personal/individual agent that is doing the thinking, seeing, feeling etc. Even if by conditioning and patters, thought strucutres, it appears as if it is.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for support in seeing my own blindspots and getting a clearer understanding of where I am in this process, and inspiration on how to move forward. Also community and sharing with other people with a similar interest in life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A mutually respectful human heart conversation. Honesty. Possibly opening up new perspectives on the process, and inspirations for the path or opening up to the next steps. Open to whichever direction it will take and feeling trust.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Had a daily meditation practise for some years, been seeking and chasing spiritual concepts for around 8 years (+-). Recently added some more serious inquiry into meditation ("who am I, what is a thought, who is thinking etc). Emotional work has been gradual over the years, with a recent strong "purge" with feeling supressed emotions. Mostly feeling stuck in identifications with thoughts and emotions (I think) and thinking for the "I", even if there is a clear conceptual understanding of not-self. The mind appears very "analytical" and "philosohical".

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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[Anastacia42]

Great, let's do this

Some people do wake up just reading the Gateless Gatecrashers book.

I'm going to give you a couple of Dillulo videos, but if that doesn't "work" we can start at the beginning. It doesn't take that long for some people. For others it takes months.

These are from Angelo Dillulo.

https://youtu.be/fEv7UF8evQ4?si=0quQlOl6c4S5QvUU


https://youtu.be/mtwi2B2a0_0?si=tISlLoIix7FSzCUD

https://youtu.be/Nw6tBnoMZyk?si=ddE4H5bzYSgxG

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[ajef]

Ho Stacy! Happy new year :) Thank so much for your thourough reply and willingness to guide me. I gladly accept it. I am down with the Flu right now, so I will have to take some days to look into this material and answer the questions. Just wanted to let you know, I seen your message and greatly appreciate it. I will be back with the questions and details for how we can stay in touch.
Thank you for great input.
All the best,
Anna

[Anastacia42]

Okay

Get well & then we can start.

Loving

[ajef]

Hi Stacy! Hope you are well.
I am back and have spent some time looking through the videoes, and reflecting on this material.
I confirm I have read the Disclaimer. And the text "what LU is not".
In reading I noticed the "This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.". I think my biggest expectation is probably around this point around the thinking.

I also have a question about posting every day. What do I post? Like is there a specific question I answer every day, or anything specific to write about? Any suggestions on this would be appreciated.

How will life change?

Life will feel more "in flow" and I will be more present in it. Life will feel less like a battle that I can control, but more like a mystery.

How will you change?

I will be less judgemental of other people. More willing to help and be kind and be of service to others. I will make more aligned choises and act from a place of truth and integrity instead of "what i think is the smart thing to do".

What will be different?

I will feel less reactive, more present and detatched from outcomes. Less analytical, more in flow. Mostly I will feel more inclined to help other humans or animals than I do today.

What is missing?

The biggest piece I feel is missing is detatchment from thoughts. I notice there is always planning, evaluation, judgement, reflection, contemplation, etc going on in the mind. Some times I just observe it, but very often I find myself right in it fully identifying and believing it. And its still a very "soothing" and happens automatically, as a way to distract, sometimes just fantasize or gain control.
Also another missing peace is a genuine feeling of wanting to be around and help people.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

I am in Norway (CET). Do you have Whatsapp or Signal?

With love,
Anna.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Anna

Glad you're well now.

Do you have Whatsapp or Signal?

Both, but right now I only guide here on the forum. We're 8 hours apart.

I'm in Colorado, US Mountain Time.

Your expectations are pretty reasonable.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[ajef]

Thank you for great input. This is very helpful. I can see how this way of seeing is what I need more practise in.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

So just to see if I understand it right. The thing you suggest I come and post every day, is what my direct experience is? So every day, I write something about what I see, hear, feel (not emotion, sensation), taste, smell, thoughts arrising...
For example:
I see: the computer screen, my fingers on the keyboard, the words coming on to the screen as I touch the key board, the orange background of this textbook, my folded leg behind the computer screen. etc.

Do I understand the exercise correct?

With love,
Anna

[Anastacia42]

Thank you.

I will be giving you pointers (exercises) one at a time with feedback on each one.


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[ajef]

Got it, thank you. I will try this out tomorrow and come back with notes.
With love, Anna.

[ajef]

Hi! :)
I noticed a few things during this exploration that I would like to bring up. One is that its a bit challenging to write about it, already in describing it its not longer a direct experience but a story about what I experienced.
Number two is that my thoughts always seems to be there, in addition to the direct experience. Sometimes they are just there as a company, just like seeing and hearing can happen at the same time. Sometimes they distort, or creates illusions or really brings me out of the present moment. Just wanted to mention it, it became really clear during this exercise. I've separated the thoughts from the sensual experience and added it next to it for the first activity just to illustrate what is meant by this. Any guidance on this would be appreciated.

Here are some notes on my exploration today.

Activity: Eating breakfast
Seeing: the bowl, round circle shape. brownish colour, a bit overfilled bowl. Thought: it doesnt look like it will taste good.
Hearing: hearing my chewing, some things sound louder than others. hearing very vaugely kids playing outside. Thought (occured at the same time): The Tea might be done now, you should go and check!
Feeling: warm, smooth sensation in mouth. Melting sensation. Thought: what is the english word for this? dont even remember the norwegian word... trying to describe a certain texture, can't find the word. ok.
Feeling: sweating, feeling some drops around the belly and chest area. Feeling warm and tired, sinking feeling. Urge to lay down. Feeling full in belly. Thought: the energy is still low.Then went on for a long evaluation about my health, reflections and pondering.
Tasting: some berries taste sour and sharp. Many different flavours together.
Thought: taste is unexpected, wish it was a bit sweeter. enjoying the taste more when eyes are closed.
Smelling: can't access the smell so much. Thought: my smelling taste is probably redused. Laughing silently at how close i tried to put the nose to the food.

Activity: washing the hair.
Comment: I decided to focus on the senses, yet halfway through the wash I discovered I was completely absorbed in thoughts! Then I was more present for the remaining.
Seeing: mostly eyes clothes, but I see the water running.
Hearing: hearing the sound of the water, sometimes my own breathing or rubbing of the shampoo.
Feeling: feeling water in the ears. warm water. warm feeling. water running down from the head.
Tasting: can't notice any particular taste.
Smelling: smell of shampoo feels mild, soap feels like a strong smell.
Thoughts: the smelling is back. Thoughts about likes and dislikes. Planning, judging the thoughts, noticing them strongly.

Activity: Eye gazing in the mirror
Seeing: the reflection of my own face, body. The eye focus. Notice the hair cap, the background of the bathroom. Thoughts: I missed this, judgements.
Hearing: vaguely my own breath, the fan.
Feeling: pressure or undefinable point in the chest. Slightly contracted "sore" feeling in the throat. Still water or pressure in ears.
Tasting: some mouth flavours i cannot describe in words.
Smelling: not noticing any smells in this moment.
Thougths: evaluation or trying to figure out "where I am" in the process, everything from planning thoughts to random memories or images.

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Yes the problem is that you are overthinking everything and did not follow the instructions.

Yes thoughts will always be there. We simply do not believe them. These pointers train you to ignore the content of thought.

Please make your reply look *exactly* like the example I gave. Do not write sentences about this.

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Thank you,

[ajef]

Hi Stacy. Thank you for pointing this out, you are right and I got a bit too carried away with the thinking. Appreciate your patience. I have tried again in a few activites.

Activity - Changing bed sheets
Seeing the bed, simply= image/color
Smelling fresh sheets, simply = smell
Feeling movement, simply = sensation
Tasting pumpkin seeds, simply = taste
Hearing sounds of taking on and off the sheets, simply = sound
Thinking about the future, simply = thought

Washing dishes
Seeing dirty dishes, simply= image/color
Smelling soup, simply = smell
Feeling damp, simply = sensation
Tasting nothing, simply = taste
Hearing water running, simply = sound
Thinking about what I'm feeling, simply = thought

Drinking water
Seeing a glass of water, simply= image/color
Smelling nothing, simply = smell
Feeling cold feeling of the water in mouth and throat, simply = sensation
Tasting cold water, simply = taste
Hearing swallowing, simply = sound
Thinking about how to describe, simply = thought


With love,
Anna

[Anastacia42]

Thank you, Anna. Those are v great. The point is to learn to distinguish the fact that a thought arose from the content of the thought.

Here is the next step.


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[ajef]

Hi. Great exercise, thank you Stacy. Here are my answers.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Both feels true. But the second one feels slightly more true. Because "I" is just an added label and makes it seems as if someone has ownership of the experience. It feels more true that there is just the experience happening.

2. What is here without labels?

Not sure.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They just describe it.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I felt some tension in the body on both. On the second one, I also noticed some light muscle twitching in facial muscles and legs (usually happens in meditation or breathwork for me). I felt slightly more impatient on the first one, experienced as a slight more restlessness in the energy and looking around and "waiting" for time to end.

With love,
Anna

[Anastacia42]

Hi Anna,

Close.

The second one cannot be true because there is no such thing as I. That lie usually causes tension in the gut.

What is there without labels is only direct experience.

Can you see that?

Next:

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,