Fellow traveler on liberation road

[adamluc]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? Providing the background to help detect and see past the ego / witness as a deep realization whereby once realized - no separate self is available. I see this as fetter 8 breaking.

What are you looking for at LU? I’m looking to find a community of people like me to share information with and help guide me on my journey. I have been on the journey for more than 20 years now, but have recently made great progress.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Providing a guiding light to help me see past things I do not see, and or provide expertise on understanding what I am experiencing.

I would like to understand more about fetters 8-10, and help understand - what happens to people who are liberated?

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Mediator for 20+ years, have practiced multiple variations of meditation. Self inquiry is the most powerful I have used. I currently have broken fetters 1-7.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poppyseed]

Hi adamluc
(what do you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

What time zone are you in?
Love
Rali

[adamluc]

Hi Rali,

Pleasure to virtually meet you. You can call me Adam. Thank you for your help!

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Confirmed

What time zone are you in?

central standard time

What time zone are you in?

Also, I do not think I can respond daily - I think every few days would work better.

Thanks
Adam

[poppyseed]

Hi Adam

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

central standard time
What time zone are you in?

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

Also, I do not think I can respond daily - I think every few days would work better.

Well it is how it is. Momentum is important but you seem to have experience in this so hopefully it will work

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[adamluc]

Hi Rali,

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

When I started, I did not know - I just felt a pull that has been with me for over 20 years now. About a year and a half ago, I had a shift and things have just moved forward from there. Now, I see things differently, since I mostly see there is no separate self - In general, the benefits are from not having the separate self influencing my life, so less stress and more me. I did not know that before, but I know it now.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I do not know, I am just getting pulled along. I expect in the end, I will be more free then I seem to be now.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I have had various aspects of this question come up - mostly I did not want to lose my identity, which I guess is a big aspect of the entire journey - that fear I see as less "me" and more the separate self. Now, I see the distinction, originally I did not.

4. What are you hoping for?

I am not hoping for anything - originally I wanted to be less stressed, now its not about that anymore, its more about curiosity of what the not separate self is.

5. What is missing?

Nothing as far as I can see.

Best
Adam

[poppyseed]

Hi Adam

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisations happen, they can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then they can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. It is all just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I have had various aspects of this question come up - mostly I did not want to lose my identity, which I guess is a big aspect of the entire journey - that fear I see as less "me" and more the separate self. Now, I see the distinction, originally I did not.

Exactly! Like I said, it’s just a shift of perception. How can you lose what you never had? An illusion is an illusion.

Did you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable? Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.

It's like the belief in Santa. You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

What is important to see here as you did to some degree is that fear has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes - the survival of the imaginary self (a combination of all of these) in some “form or shape”. So, obviously when threatened there will be fear involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with fear in general, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary. Furthermore, you inspect what actually make the sensation fear besides the label, but let’s not rush.

Now, I see things differently, since I mostly see there is no separate self - In general, the benefits are from not having the separate self influencing my life, so less stress and more me.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness/observer, nothing else besides what IS (happening), what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. Of course, honesty will make this work

Love
Rali

[adamluc]

Hi Rali,

Is that OK with you?

- Sure

Exactly! Like I said, it’s just a shift of perception. How can you lose what you never had? An illusion is an illusion.

- I do not agree here, its not an illusion and it is something many have and it is something that exists - if it were an illusion, then its impact would be zero, but I understand why this term is used a lot, as once the self is seen - it seems like it always an illusion. Overall, calling it an illusion undermines the person whose illusion it is, especially since it is so hard to break it. My current view is the self is there for a reason, developed for a reason (likely trauma based), but it inhibits us once we get to a certain point and many of us need to shed it.

It's like the belief in Santa. You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

- it became a bit less magical :) I think in actuality, we experience the reverse - by removing the 'self', there is actually more magic :)

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness/observer, nothing else besides what IS (happening), what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

I sense the self, but it is very weakened from the previous work I have done - I know I am at the door, once I open it, the self will disappear, at least thats my current feel :) I also sense a fear, as I am close to removing it - the fear is not from me directly, but the self. I do not want to remove the self just yet, but soon when I feel I am ready - I am close I think.

I have done the above types of exercises preciously. I use self-inquiry to look for the answers - waiting until the insight bubbles up and look to see if there is any associated past memory or emotion as well. Then let them pass if that is my target, or process them accordingly with what I am using self-inquiry to target. Hope that helps.

Note - I have a good familiarity with these concepts above - let me know what else I can share, as I have broken buddhist fetters 1-7 and on 8 now.

Thanks
Adam

[poppyseed]

Hi Adam

Thank you for your honesty!

- I do not agree here, its not an illusion and it is something many have and it is something that exists - if it were an illusion, then its impact would be zero, but I understand why this term is used a lot, as once the self is seen - it seems like it always an illusion. Overall, calling it an illusion undermines the person whose illusion it is, especially since it is so hard to break it. My current view is the self is there for a reason, developed for a reason (likely trauma based), but it inhibits us once we get to a certain point and many of us need to shed it.

Well at the end of the day it’s all an illusion – the impact, the emotions, the person, the story. But it has to be seen and felt properly – not as an idea - otherwise it is bypassing. Whatever view you might have it will not be it – it’s a conditioned way of describing this /whatever is happening, your bubble of reality (or whatever is left of it).
The same words can mean different things to different people or different things in different situations. Ideas are not objects or subjects themselves. Groups of concepts taken for truth of how things are become beliefs upon which new ideas land and stick, creating an even bigger, more magnificent castle of concepts. What seems to be “Adam’s world,” the totality of Adam’s experience of all that is happening, is a creation of language, and words are the building blocks that create the story about it. You can’t escape the meaning making machine until it’s emptiness is seen in every aspect. That’s why you have the fetters which are just different aspects of the illusion. That been said, there is nothing wrong with words and thought content per se. Just it has to be seen that all meaning is empty and holding to views and beliefs is pointless. Words are not experience. The story about experience is not experience. Otherwise we will be able to get wet from the word waterfall :) Experience is what is happening through seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, feeling, and thinking – the raw data. What is happening underneath the words is what the words are pointing to.

Here, we do not work with fetters and their order (I'm quite familiar with them though) – which are just a structured selection of major beliefs – we work with beliefs in general in whatever aspect they might refer to. The major “tool” that we use is looking. There is nothing wrong in seeing that "I-am-ness" (fetter 8) is as empty as the self or emotions right at the start. The ladder is imaginary. Once you know how to look, there is nothing stopping you to see through any belief as it comes right now.

Your answer gave me an idea where to point the looking. So before we start let me explain in more detail what this is about. Bear with me if you are already quite familiar with it - I have to make sure that we speak the same (at least close enough) language :)

Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, take a look and locate them. That’s how to look.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

Thus, there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing/colour
Hearing/sound
Feeling/sensation(not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting/taste
Smelling/smell
Thinking/thoughts arising (but not their content, not what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[adamluc]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for all of the great info. I am familiar with concepts you are discussing - the apple is a label applied by us via language that we know. Is the Apple actually there - well the senses indicate it is so by seeing, or by smelling, or by tasting - all sensations provided by the physical body however, how does one know if the senses are reporting the "right" information back? Are we seeing the Apple, or is it a hologram? Not a question you need to answer, but it comes up in deeper realization. My perspective at this point in time is the Apple is being reported back from the senses of the physical body, but the senses themselves are a filter on reality - thus the Apple is shown as an image back to the eyes, but cannot really be known.

In general, the way you are using Looking I understand - it is not about inventing or imaging something, it is about bringing something forward that is there - got that part :)

Hope the above helps!

Btw, what else can I tell you to help along the journey or the plan that you have? So far, the concepts you are proposing I am familiar with.

Thanks
Adam

[poppyseed]

Hi Adam
Thanks for the response—but we’re still in intellectual territory. You’re describing ideas about perception, not reporting what is actually here. Let’s cut through that.

I am familiar with concepts you are discussing - the apple is a label applied by us via language that we know. Is the Apple actually there - well the senses indicate it is so by seeing, or by smelling, or by tasting - all sensations provided by the physical body however, how does one know if the senses are reporting the "right" information back? Are we seeing the Apple, or is it a hologram? Not a question you need to answer, but it comes up in deeper realization. My perspective at this point in time is the Apple is being reported back from the senses of the physical body, but the senses themselves are a filter on reality - thus the Apple is shown as an image back to the eyes, but cannot really be known.

Forget what you think you know. Forget what you’ve read, learned, theorized, or philosophised. Describe what is present, without any interpretation or commentary. Not ‘senses filter reality.’ Not ‘apple cannot be known.’ Not “an image back to the eyes”.
We’re going to look, now. Pick up an apple. Hold it. Don’t talk about language or labels. Don’t drift into philosophy. Don’t analyse. Just look.
What is actually there?
Is there colour?
Is there sensation?
Is there a thought saying “apple”?
Where is the apple in that?
Not “maybe it’s a hologram.” Those are thoughts about experience.
I want the direct, pre-thought experience.
See the assumptions here – of an outside world, of eyes doing the seeing, of a physical body. We can inquire deeper into these if you want…
For now… Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it, here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Stay with the looking. Not what the looking is about. Just the looking itself.
Reply back with reports not summaries. Summaries suggest thinking about the questions, not looking. I don’t want concepts. I don’t want a “perspective.”
Tell me what is actually present.
Colour. Sensation. Thought. That’s it.
Be brutal. Be honest. Look again. Report.

Love
Rali

[adamluc]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for the notes.

After my first awakening, I did not have thoughts as much as I used to, and now it is very low - generally only if I drive them.

For the Apple exercise, I used my senses to:

1. See the Apple - I see the image, the Apple is there, but is needs to be labeled by me, otherwise it is just in the image I see
2. Same with color as above
3. There is no sensations
4. There is no thoughts
5. There is no Apple, unless I label it

All of the above is what I generally experience, if I choose to - I will label and see the Apple, otherwise its just in an image my eyes see - does that help?

Thanks
Adam

[poppyseed]

Hi Adam
You’re still reporting from the control tower. The way you’re describing this still carries the flavour of someone observing experience, managing it, deciding whether to label it or not. That’s selfing—disguised as detachment.

See the Apple - I see the image, the Apple is there, but is needs to be labeled by me, otherwise it is just in the image I see

All of the above is what I generally experience, if I choose to - I will label and see the Apple, otherwise its just in an image my eyes see - does that help?

Who is this “I” that sees? What is this that chooses to label?
Where exactly is it? Behind the "eyes", with which you see?
Show it.
You say there is no-thing unless it's labelled. Now go further… Before the label, before the colour (e.g. "image") is even interpreted, what exactly is there?
Not “an image I see.” That already implies a seer and a seen. Strip that phrase apart.
When you say “I see the image,” what are you actually experiencing?
Look at the display before you.
When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, seer, and the seen?
Are these three separate?
There’s colour, but where’s the “I”?
Where’s the “seeing”?
Where’s the “thing” ( e.g. “display”)?
Where is the image of the object, is it inside or outside of you?
If it is seen inside or outside, where is the border where the image crosses over from being outside to being inside of you? What does the border consist of?
Is there a see-er seeing the seen, or simply the seen?
Furthermore... Can you cut the "apple" out of the background without the label, in order for "the apple to be there"? Or there is just colour? Not red, not green (or whatever the background is) and red, but just colour (singular)/the seen.

If you say “there’s no apple unless I label it,” then stop right there. Ask yourself:
What else is only here because you label it? “Self”, “Awareness/Consciousness”, “Choice”, “Perception”, “Awakening”…
Even “I am looking at this apple right now.”
Can any of these be found without a thought declaring them?
Don’t use insight to describe what isn’t—use it to annihilate what you still believe is.
You say the labelling stops unless you choose to do it. So I’m asking:
Where is the one who chooses?
Can that chooser be found outside of thought? Is there a thinker of thoughts/labels? Is that you?
Can you experience it without referring to it?

Until that last illusion dies—the one doing the looking, the choosing, the explaining—the gate hasn’t been walked through even if you’re calling it freedom.
Drop the story of subtle awareness. Drop the story of “I can label or not.” Drop the manager.
What remains?
Describe that—without using the word “I.”

Please answer all questions in blue individually. I don't want a bulk answer. These questions are pointers and I want to see that you spend time playing with them.

We can look into “body” and "body parts" (e.g. "eyes"), “decision maker”, “awareness”, “thinker” in more detail… What shouts the loudest out of these?

I"m still expecting your examples of breaking daily experiences - the cup of coffee example from my previous reply. A few lineswould suffice.
Love
Rali

[adamluc]

Who is this “I” that sees? What is this that chooses to label?

Do not know

Where exactly is it? Behind the "eyes", with which you see?

Its nowhere - there is no location

You say there is no-thing unless it's labelled. Now go further… Before the label, before the colour (e.g. "image") is even interpreted, what exactly is there?

Just the sense of seeing - when I see, there are no labels on anything. I know there is an apple,, but that knowledge only surfaces if I choose to need it - primarily this occurs most of the time, the choosing to need it, if I am meditating, than the image I see is simply the image I see - no labels or thoughts. Remember - there are no thoughts here, simply looking. I think you may be getting confused, so I am breaking this down for you.

When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, seer, and the seen?

Generally no - when it is not know is when "something" - the awareness I have, which is separate from consciousness interfaces with the conscious bodymind to perform an action, such as label the apple.

Are these three separate?

Yes and No, there is no separation generally, but I sense the seperation sometimes when the "I" / "Me" / my self's idenitty comes into focus.

There’s colour, but where’s the “I”?

Separate, feels somewhat far away

Where’s the “seeing”?

The awareness sees

Where’s the “thing” ( e.g. “display”)?

Nowhere - its part of the image my eyes see. I can place/label an object in the image if I use my bodymind to label it.

Where is the image of the object, is it inside or outside of you?

Don't know

If it is seen inside or outside, where is the border where the image crosses over from being outside to being inside of you? What does the border consist of?

There is no real border, its almost as if what is seen is what it is, and there is no real border - just what is in the image.

Is there a see-er seeing the seen, or simply the seen?

Its two levels, primarily its simply the seen, but there is a way for me to also "see" if I engage my bodymind

Furthermore... Can you cut the "apple" out of the background without the label, in order for "the apple to be there"? Or there is just colour? Not red, not green (or whatever the background is) and red, but just colour (singular)/the seen.

With my bodymind - sure, I can imagine the image differently, but I cannot cut the apple out of the image without engaging my body mind.

If you say “there’s no apple unless I label it,” then stop right there. Ask yourself:
What else is only here because you label it? “Self”, “Awareness/Consciousness”, “Choice”, “Perception”, “Awakening”…

Self - I sense it, but its very light
Awareness - always there
Consciousness - need to label it
Choice - there is a mix - many choices are made without thought, some are made with thought

Even “I am looking at this apple right now.”
Can any of these be found without a thought declaring them?

No

You say the labelling stops unless you choose to do it. So I’m asking:
Where is the one who chooses?

This is a good question - it seems to be outside of my awareness, but unsure where it is exactly. It seems to be coming from the self.

Can that chooser be found outside of thought? Is there a thinker of thoughts/labels? Is that you?

Yes, it appears to be outside of thought.
The thinker of thoughts and labels - I can drive some of the thoughts, and sometimes thoughts just arise, and sometimes I think the self is driving the thoughts.
For me, I am now mostly just awareness, using the bodymind in day to day life. The self is still there, although very weak - I think it may be time to start looking deeper at the self to remove it.

Can you experience it without referring to it?

The self? somewhat, I am still trying to unearth the best ways to get to it, I left it alone after having my latest shift back in october.

Until that last illusion dies—the one doing the looking, the choosing, the explaining—the gate hasn’t been walked through even if you’re calling it freedom.
Drop the story of subtle awareness. Drop the story of “I can label or not.” Drop the manager.
What remains?
Describe that—without using the word “I.”

Just awareness

We can look into “body” and "body parts" (e.g. "eyes"), “decision maker”, “awareness”, “thinker” in more detail… What shouts the loudest out of these?

thinker and awareness

In reference to looking at other objects, the answers would be the same.

[poppyseed]

Hi Adam

Generally no - when it is not known is when "something" - the awareness I have, which is separate from consciousness interfaces with the conscious bodymind to perform an action, such as label the apple.

There are so many labels/stories here that we need to make sure that you understand their emptiness.
What is a “bodymind”? That sounds like a spiritual terminology. In my direct experience (DE) there are thoughts and sensations. You keep bringing up "body" as a unit but is there a body that can do things in DE? I hope you have seen already (fetters 1-7) that a “body” is a label/thought about sensations with no container (no outside and inside). Can sensations do anything or they just ARE? Can thoughts do anything or they just appear describing/interpreting/give meaning to this/what is happening? Can a description/a word do anything? Is there anything performing actions or that is a story about inseparable sensation_colour_smell_taste_sound_interpretation? All "you" have is the 5 senses and thinking. Whatever is not in the first five is a thought/an assumption/a story about the senses...

Let’s not ignore the elephant in the room…

The thinker of thoughts and labels - I can drive some of the thoughts, and sometimes thoughts just arise, and sometimes I think the self is driving the thoughts.
For me, I am now mostly just awareness, using the bodymind in day to day life. The self is still there, although very weak - I think it may be time to start looking deeper at the self to remove it.

Let's deal with awareness first. That’s a major identity. That’s the manager—the transparent controller that says: “I don’t think, I don’t do, I just observe. I let the "bodymind" run.”
That’s the last defence of the self. It doesn't call itself “me” anymore. It calls itself awareness. It calls itself subtle. It hides in stillness.
It's time to look and see through this...
That “awareness” you claim is always there—what is it, exactly?
Right now:
What colour is it?
What shape?
What texture?
Where is it located?
Can it be found without thought referring to it?
How is it known that is there?
And don't say awareness is aware of itself... That's just another empty thought/teaching. For something to be aware of "itself" it has to split itself into "not self" and "self" in order to see itself - there are no awareness mirrors there :)
You say: “Just awareness.” But that’s a label. That’s not the thing itself. The word “awareness” is not awareness. The word carries meaning about a function and qualities and meaning is created by thoughts, it's empty of inherent existence. The idea of “being awareness” is a thought. The sense of “resting in awareness” is still a position. A stance. A role. A subtle layer of identity.
So try this right now: Don’t look for the apple. Look for the awareness.
Turn around and look at the one who sees. Not in metaphor. Literally. Don’t go to the feeling of space, or stillness, or subtle presence. That’s all background noise - subtle sensations. Actually find what sees.

Here is an exercise to explore this…
Close your eyes. With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics.
Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness', or ‘the seen’ just for simplicity.
1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness'/’the seen’ as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is seeing/witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Adam/awareness be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the see-er/observer/experiencer/witness/awareness, be anything other than a concept/idea/assumption/thought?
Look! Don’t try to remember previous experiences, or teachings!
Can awareness be found as a separate thing or is it assumed, just a pointer that collapses when turned inward?

Drop the story of “awareness is always there.” That story is the veil.
Awareness doesn’t look. Awareness doesn’t sit quietly and witness. That’s the last illusion. What you're calling “awareness” isn’t a thing. It’s not an observer. It’s not a background. It’s not some subtle faculty.
It’s just the undeniable fact that THIS is happening.
That’s it. Full stop.
Not “awareness” as a presence watching experience—that’s redundant. Calling it “awareness” is just one last label—one last illusion of standing apart from what’s already happening. There is no need of a “you” or “awareness” to make experience real. The word awareness is a post-it note slapped on the obvious.
Without the labels there is just THIS. In Buddhism the term “suchness” or “thusness” (whatever is happening) is used, referring to the nature of reality free from conceptual elaborations and the subject–object distinction. I like the word “THIS” as it is more like a pointing word – pointing to whatever is directly experienced like an arrow with no extra meaning – rather than labelling/describing the experience.

So let it go. Not because it’s wrong, but because it’s not needed.
What remains when even “awareness” is seen as extra?

Right now, in raw direct experience, can you find any separate “you,” any awareness, any observer, any chooser… anywhere?
Describe, precisely and physically, what remains after the last reference point collapses.
And don’t use the word “awareness.” That’s the last mask.

Here is a fun video to challenge that belief even further:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_ ... 4&index=14

NB! I see a resistance around the cup of coffee exercise (which is quite beneficial in removing believes). It seems like there is a belief that the exercise is beneath you, which suggests a subtle identity around achieving – breaking the fetters 1-7. Maybe the question you should ask here is: to whom that achievement belongs? Who/what is moving up the ladder, walking the path? Experience? This? The bodymind (thoughts and sensations)? These are all labels and labels don’t DO.
If there is resistance it is good to acknoledge it and see what beliefs lie underneath

Having a “beginner’s mind” could be quite beneficial as believes create veils :)
Love
Rali

[adamluc]

Hi Rali,

Thank you so much for all of your help. I have not been around in a while, but have had a shift where the self is no longer there - everything is now flattened in experience and there is no longer any perspective. It’s raw and new and some of it is hard to communicate. I just wanted to say thank you.

Best
Adam