Would love guidance for seeing no self more clearly

[ostrich]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The 'self' is something I made up and constantly believe in. The 'self' believes that I make decisions and that I have control but that is just an illusion.

What are you looking for at LU?
Hoping to get more direct experiences of no real, inherent 'self' and be able to bring that belief more into my life. There being no 'self' feels more like a theoretical understanding. The 'self' still feels very real and there's been some questioning and experience where it feels less real.

Becca was recommended to me so I'm hoping to get her as my guide but would also be happy to work with someone else if she's not available.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm hoping for pointers, questions and exercises that will help me see where I'm stuck. I expect my mind will come up with all sorts of ways to not see the truth and I'm hoping that I'll get called out when my mind is trying to explain and understand things instead of experiencing it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've had a periods of consistent meditation practice for the past year or so. Have watched YouTube videos and read a bit about no 'self'. Began to more seriously question whether the self was real during a weeklong silent retreat in October. During one of the walking meditation practices, it seemed like walking was happening and then a thought that I was walking would appear. I couldn't find a concrete I that was controlling and doing the walking.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[graceabounds]

Hello dear,

You got ‘me’. Welcome.

During one of the walking meditation practices, it seemed like walking was happening and then a thought that I was walking would appear. I couldn't find a concrete I that was controlling and doing the walking.

Great. Have you found one in the time since?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

What lies in the space between 9 and 10?

In gratitude,
Becca

[ostrich]

yay, I'm glad :D thank you!

Great. Have you found one in the time since?

Nope. Whenever I look, I just find sensations, thoughts and feelings. Yet there's still a persistent thought, sense or feeling that 'I' is real. There's some disconnect between what I can directly observe and what I believe. Maybe I believe I haven't looked thoroughly enough or that I can't believe what I can directly observe?

What lies in the space between 9 and 10?

There's some fear, discomfort and an urge to avoid that comes with questioning my beliefs about 'self'. I also feel like I spend too much time distracting and avoiding for me to think that I'm a 10. If I was really that willing to question my held beliefs, I would've spent more time investigating it.

[graceabounds]

Yet there's still a persistent thought, sense or feeling that 'I' is real.

If you were to choose one which one would it be? Thought, sensation or emotion?

There's some disconnect between what I can directly observe and what I believe. Maybe I believe I haven't looked thoroughly enough or that I can't believe what I can directly observe?

What is here that is not a thought?

There's some fear, discomfort and an urge to avoid that comes with questioning my beliefs about 'self'.

Ah. So, Where is the discomfort? Is it in the body, the mind, or both?
Where is the fear? Is it in the body, the mind, or both?

Also what name shall I call you here?

In gratitude,
Becca

[ostrich]

If you were to choose one which one would it be? Thought, sensation or emotion?

I had quite a bit of difficulty coming with an answer for this one. I think I identify the self with this feeling of constriction in my mind and the thoughts. My sense is that most of my thoughts have this implicit belief that the self is real. Even as I'm trying to answer these questions, it feels like there is this belief that "I" am answering this question and that "I" have control over how I answer these questions. "I" am trying to figure out that the self isn't real.

What is here that is not a thought?

They are all thoughts.

Ah. So, Where is the discomfort? Is it in the body, the mind, or both?
Where is the fear? Is it in the body, the mind, or both?

The discomfort and fear occurs in both. There are thoughts of doubt that come up like, "if the self is not real, how would you function". Those thoughts seem to lead to discomfort and fear in the body. I notice uncomfortable sensations in my stomach when I think about answering these questions and then I have a bunch of thoughts trying to convince me to do this later (and most of them succeeded today).

Also what name shall I call you here?

John

[graceabounds]

Hi John,

Great start here.

. I think I identify the self with this feeling of constriction in my mind and the thoughts. My sense is that most of my thoughts have this implicit belief that the self is real.

Is the ‘self’-constriction physical?


And yes, it seems as if “I” is answering these questions, but as you are seeing there is difficulty. If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment. Ok?

Let’s explore the mechanism of thought directly.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

There are thoughts of doubt that come up like, "if the self is not real, how would you function". Those thoughts seem to lead to discomfort and fear in the body.

Yes. Where is this discomfort and fear located?

Also if it supports with resistance, I will ask that you post a little each day. :)

Much love,
Becca

[ostrich]

Is the ‘self’-constriction physical?

No, it feels more like a narrowing of attention. Most of my attention is focused on my thoughts and it feels like I'm more in my head.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

yes, I agree with that because I'm not 100% certain my memory is accurate.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment. Ok?

yes, understood

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

I had some difficulty just letting them appear without me doing anything at all. In particular, it feels like I translate some of my thoughts into English. For example, the thought that "I'm hungry" would appear but then it seemed like I would verbalize the words "I'm hungry" in my mind.

Where are they coming from and going to?

They just seem to appear and disappear near my head. They don't seem to come from anywhere or go anywhere.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

For the most part no. Could only make a particular thought appear if I'm actively repeating something over and over again. Was doing this for a bit to explore whether I could predict my next thought.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, but I think I could've gotten a different thought to appear near that moment by forcefully repeating a thought.

Can you predict your next thought?

No, when I try, the prediction itself is the next thought and I can't predict the prediction. The only way I can predict it is if I'm repeating something over and over again but that requires quite a bit of effort and goes against the instruction of just letting thoughts arise. Although even that doesn't always work because sometimes unpredictable thoughts will come in between what I'm repeating.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Haha, I wish. My mind tries to do that but it's not successful

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

no

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

no

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

no, trying to prevent a thought from appearing seems to make it more likely to appear.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

In the moment to moment experience, the thoughts don't seem to have some logical ordered appearance. When I look and try to figure that out, a thought about whether they are organized or not appears. Then that thought makes me believe that some do seem to have some kind of logical ordered appearance whereas some thoughts don't. For example the thought "I'm hungry" and then the thought "I should go eat" appearing seems kind of logically ordered but that in itself is a thought.

Yes. Where is this discomfort and fear located?

My stomach and head

Also if it supports with resistance, I will ask that you post a little each day. :)

Thanks :) Yes, having that expectation will help with that.

[graceabounds]

Hello John,

Very good looking.

No, it feels more like a narrowing of attention. Most of my attention is focused on my thoughts and it feels like I'm more in my head.

What is the difference experientially when not focused on thoughts?

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for a while. Observe how the mind is dividing and labeling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.
Give it some time…
Then, stop watching the objects as labeled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience.

yes, I agree with that because I'm not 100% certain my memory is accurate.

It isn’t. And we will come to look at memory later on, but for now:
Is any given thought accurate?
Is a memory thought different from any other thought?

In particular, it feels like I translate some of my thoughts into English. For example, the thought that "I'm hungry" would appear but then it seemed like I would verbalize the words "I'm hungry" in my mind

Does the audio of the words in your head appear in a certain location? Is it a different location than where the initial thought seems to appear or be known?

when I try, the prediction itself is the next thought and I can't predict the prediction. The only way I can predict it is if I'm repeating something over and over again but that requires quite a bit of effort and goes against the instruction of just letting thoughts arise. Although even that doesn't always work because sometimes unpredictable thoughts will come in between what I'm repeating.

Yes, so is there a ‘you’ even in control of repeating something over and over? Or does that also come and go?

Look closer, right now:
What makes a thought happen?

Watch carefully. You’re not asking why. You’re watching what happens just before a thought arises. That space.

Where is the “you” in this?
Is there a gap (any command, decision, intention etc) or does the thought just appear, unbidden, fully formed?

Even the attempt to control it, to repeat something, was hijacked by something unpredictable! That “you” trying to control is itself just a thought.
Does this mean there is any you behind what’s happening at all?

a thought about whether they are organized or not appears. Then that thought makes me believe that some do seem to have some kind of logical ordered appearance whereas some thoughts don't. For example the thought "I'm hungry" and then the thought "I should go eat" appearing seems kind of logically ordered but that in itself is a thought.

Exactly. You watched the mind create a narrative of logic after the thoughts arose. The ordering wasn’t in the thoughts themselves. it was imposed retrospectively by another thought. A commentator.

A thought appears.
Then another.
Sometimes they feel connected. Sometimes random.
But are you doing that connecting? Or is that connection just… another thought?

Is there, anywhere, any evidence at all that thought comes from or is owned by a self?

Yes. Where is this discomfort and fear located?

My stomach and head

What happens with these sensations when doing all the above inquiries?

A lot here. Break it up into multiple replies if needed.
Much love,
Becca

[ostrich]

What is the difference experientially when not focused on thoughts?

My awareness feels more expansive and I feel more relaxed. My vision seems a bit more zoomed out and it feels like I notice more details on things.

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for a while. Observe how the mind is dividing and labeling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.

I do notice my mind doing that but it feels like I'm missing a ton of stuff. Like I notice there is a story but I'm not exactly sure what that story is.

Is any given thought accurate?

no. whether it's accurate is another thought.

Is a memory thought different from any other thought?

I keep thinking it should be but am having a hard time finding the difference in the moment. Evaluating whether the thought is a memory requires another thought and belief that that thought is correct. In the moment, all thoughts kind of feel the same.

Does the audio of the words in your head appear in a certain location? Is it a different location than where the initial thought seems to appear or be known?

Feeling confused about this one. I'm not even sure if the audio of the words in my head have a certain location. With sounds, deciphering the location feels like a thought separate from the sound itself. In particular, figuring out the distance feels like a separate thought or a series of thoughts. The audio of the words often appears with tension in my head and I suspect I was associating the two together. I have a hard time finding a location of the audio when my head feels more spacious and there's less tension there. I'm also having a hard time finding a location of the initial thought.

Wasn't able to get to the other questions and exercises. I plan on getting through them tomorrow.

[graceabounds]

Great, will reply once you work through them all

:)

[ostrich]

Yes, so is there a ‘you’ even in control of repeating something over and over? Or does that also come and go?

Look closer, right now:
What makes a thought happen?

Watch carefully. You’re not asking why. You’re watching what happens just before a thought arises. That space.

Where is the “you” in this?
Is there a gap (any command, decision, intention etc) or does the thought just appear, unbidden, fully formed?

Oof doing this makes my head hurt. My sense is that there's a thought to repeat before the repeating happens. That thought to repeat just arises and also causes tension in my head. It feels like I'm not quite seeing this clearly though. It's almost as if the tension is obscuring the thought to repeat. When I try to look without the tension to catch the thought, the repeating tends to not happen.

Even the attempt to control it, to repeat something, was hijacked by something unpredictable! That “you” trying to control is itself just a thought.
Does this mean there is any you behind what’s happening at all?

I think I'm getting a glimpse that there is any you behind what's happening but it hasn't really sunk in.

Exactly. You watched the mind create a narrative of logic after the thoughts arose. The ordering wasn’t in the thoughts themselves. it was imposed retrospectively by another thought. A commentator.

A thought appears.
Then another.
Sometimes they feel connected. Sometimes random.
But are you doing that connecting? Or is that connection just… another thought?

Is there, anywhere, any evidence at all that thought comes from or is owned by a self?

That connection is just another thought. I can't find any evidence that the thought is owned by anything. The thoughts just kind of appear.

What happens with these sensations when doing all the above inquiries?

With the repeating, the tension in the head gets stronger. If I'm more relaxed and just watching my thoughts, the sensations have a tendency to disappear.

[graceabounds]

Very good, John.

The head pressure is normal. We are examining closely some fundamental assumptions and it turns everything kind of upside down for a while.

What is the difference experientially when not focused on thoughts?

My awareness feels more expansive and I feel more relaxed. My vision seems a bit more zoomed out and it feels like I notice more details on things.

This is direct experience. Is there a ‘you’ directing the awareness or the noticing or is it just happening?

I can't find any evidence that the thought is owned by anything. The thoughts just kind of appear.

Yes.


Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper. This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”. For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Much love!

[ostrich]

This is direct experience. Is there a ‘you’ directing the awareness or the noticing or is it just happening?

It is just happening. When I feel like the 'I' is coming back to direct the awareness, the qualities I associate with the direct experience starts to fade.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

labelling without the I seems truer. however, I feel like I'm answering this question by thinking through things rather than having a felt sense of it.

2. What is here without labels?

the experience. mainly sensations and thoughts

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The labels did affect my experience. Labelling made it so I couldn't be as present and I kept having to think about what to write. Part of my attention was on writing. Adding the "I" felt even more effortful. I couldn't write as much and it increased the tension in my head.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I felt quite a bit more tension in my head when I labelled my experiences with the word "I". When I didn't, my head felt more spacious, relaxed and light

Thank you for the continued guidance <3 I feel like I've been learning quite a bit through these questions and exercises

[graceabounds]

I felt quite a bit more tension in my head when I labelled my experiences with the word "I". When I didn't, my head felt more spacious, relaxed and light

Great, this feeling is a reliable barometer. Maintaining the illusion takes effort. With it pulled back, the body relaxes. Is there any effort in experiencing what is without the overly of maintaining an ‘I’ thought?

Take a look:

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought
[side note: a thought appearing is direct experience, the content of thought, whatever it is about, is not]

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

When I feel like the 'I' is coming back to direct the awareness, the qualities I associate with the direct experience starts to fade.

Was any I overlay needed to direct this exercise?

[ostrich]

Great, this feeling is a reliable barometer. Maintaining the illusion takes effort. With it pulled back, the body relaxes. Is there any effort in experiencing what is without the overly of maintaining an ‘I’ thought?

It feels like there's no effort but I'm not sure if that's actually the case.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

Fascinating, I feel more relaxed, present and grounded when I use those labels. Less tension in the head and more spacious. And have noticed that those labels feel lighter than the verb which feels lighter than the "I" label

It feels as if those labels have a re-framing effect on the experience and it overwrites some of the automatic "I" thoughts.

I was able to do the exercise for a bit while working, doing some chores and eating dinner. Feel excited about trying to incorporate the labels more into my life.

Was any I overlay needed to direct this exercise?

no, the "I" just appears. it doesn't feel an "I" overlay is needed for the "I" to come back.