I had been relying on habitualy naming of things in order to feel stable

[rich879]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My experience is very visceral and present. My body is like a mass of tingly warmth with variations in intensity. There's a voice whispering in my head that I can feel and often ignore. Everything I see and hear is like layers of overlay, including the physical sensations. I have a sense of me that "owns" all this stuff but is hard to pin down.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like some guidance relating to the way that my mind stopped naming things recently. I was looking at things and noticed that I could not recall what they were in the usual sense. A wave of fear went through me and my mind started grasping at names to try, and they were not correct. Everything looked bright and intense. I got the sense that I has been relying on an artificial feeling of control and volition and that it had faltered for a short time. My mind was conjuring fearful explanations for what was happening and then coming up with counters to sooth me. I've familiar with this kind of pattern and was somewhat able to allow it all to play out, but I could not quite let go of the possibility that the thoughts were correct. I'm now settled into a more familiar pattern, but the experience left quite an impression. I've had similar experiences before now - a Kundalini effect that was quite similar but extremely intense, lasted for weeks and settled into something less astonishing and long lasting, and when I was falling asleep one night and I felt fear at the possibility of not relying on thought for reference in life. I've had numerous experiences over the years that have brought me to where I am, and they seem to have changed me each time.
Everything seems very switched on and "real", like there's nowhere to hide. I'm hoping that someone at LU can recognise what I'm saying and provide some reassurance or guidance or something - and I'm not even sure there's anything anyone can say or do to "help" if that's even possible, but I still type. I'm not even sure I'm suffering exactly because I get the sense that I'm not entirely comfortable but it seems to have a quality about it which makes it easier to accept. I think maybe I'm addicted to confirmation and this is part of that same naming mechanism that kicked back in after that moment of lapse.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect a response that either confirms what I'm saying and offers a bit of affirmation or good advice, or that steers me away from some point of confusion. It would be wonderful if someone could provide clarity that they feel I'm missing, but again, that might be just more need for me to paint maps of my experience.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I began this path some 20 years ago in a place of complete misery after a powerful evening of MDMA made me comfortable and I noticed that my thoughts had somehow slowed down, and the people around me where all secretly aware of some wonderful truth. I spent years trying to get back to that experience (a mistake, I came to realise) but eventually took on more traditional meditation practices in Buddhism. I'm currently a member or the Awakened Heart Sangha, but I often find that my attempts to communicate the vivid and energetic nature of my experience are often not cleanly received.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

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[graceabounds]

Hello dear,

Thanks for your patience in waiting for a guide. I’d be happy to be present with you in this inquiry.

Assuming you are still interested in exploring could you catch me up on anything that is present now or that has resolved since you answered the initial queries here a month ago?

In gratitude,
Becca

[rich879]

Hiya Becca,

I'm still very present, no real sense of time. I'm noticing contractions on occasion, say, in my head or in my torsos, and I'm able to feel them without the kind of control and resistence I used to offer. I get the stange sense as I write this and ponder what to say, that I'm engaging in some contrived behaviour to piece together an image to share with you.
When thought occurs, with a little bit of concentration I can see that thought is happening *alongside* physical activity, and not making anything happen (it sounds rediculous when said out loud, that thought can effect anything) but... I wonder if complicated human behaviour can happen without thought.
Could I speak to someone, provide instructions, name people, explain a story etc etc without thought occuring if it doesn't happen to be there? Perhaps thought is good for programming muscle memory when ideas are new or fading from lack of use.
I still kind of believe that I'm in control of something, but the belief is shaky.

Thank you for responding to me. I hope this image clarifies.

[graceabounds]

Hello,

Very good. Let’s get started…

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of a separate self. This is actually not a debate or even a philosophy — it is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception. We point directly to what is through simple exercises, questions, and dialogue.

What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully into what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking, not imagining, not remembering) that brings a shift in perception. We call this Direct Experience: looking into what the senses report here and now, stripped of thought-story.

Direct experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Direct experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation.

Labels for things are thoughts or thought pictures. So there is a piece of the illusion that has been seen through here when you describe seeing through things in the usual sense and not finding the ‘proper’ names.

‘I’ is a label.

I have a sense of me that "owns" all this stuff but is hard to pin down

Where is this sense of me? This owner? Take a look in direct experience…. is it a sensation? a thought? Or is it a thought claiming ownership after sensations already exist?

Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

We will get to control next…

Much love,
Becca

[rich879]

There is a feeling of continuity and presence in my chest and my head that seems to be "me" and my thoughts talk about "me". These sensations and thoughts seem to have me-ness about them. When I direct my attention it seems like I am doing it. I can identify that thought is saying all these things but the sense of continuity continues.

[graceabounds]

Great, taking the sensations in the chest and head one at a time:

What is actually here? Pressure, tingling, heat?

What gives the sensations me-ness?

When I direct my attention it seems like I am doing it.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focusing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on
breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?

What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?
Describe what you see.

[rich879]

I read your post and very quickly, and with a bit of a shock, I noticed that the attention moves on its own. It was a flash realisation but I still intend to spend the 10-15 paying close attention. Just needed to get this down quickly. I'll respond again after the 10-15 mins.

[graceabounds]

:)

[rich879]

Yes, I can see it. There's no predicting what thought will pop up or where my mind will focus next. My mind seems to zoom in on whatever comes, and whatever comes is soon replaced by something else which then gets focused on. I can see that this not something I am in control of. I can feel the difference between the heaviness of being someone doing the things and the lighter sensation of just having the things do what they do. This "I" narrator seems to be coming from nowhere.

Feels like I'm seeing something close to the truth but with a subtle drag-net stopping me from free flowing.

[graceabounds]

Great.

Is this ‘I narrator’ you?

my thoughts talk about "me". These sensations and thoughts seem to have me-ness about them

Is this true?

Can you choose anything that appears in thought?

[rich879]

I have experienced thought that appears to be under control but I have also seen thought appear that clearly isn't. It must be the thoughts that are creating the sense of being under control of thought. I am tasting what it means to not be convinced by thought, but I still seem to find myself learning the same lesson over and again.

I am leaning on the side of not believing in "me".
Have not been able to let go.

[graceabounds]

Where exactly is this “me” that’s holding on?
What is it?
Show me. Not a concept or a feeling.
Not a thought ABOUT “me”…
Where is the thing that’s doing the holding on?

Bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend".
Then bring up a thought about a character labeled "stranger".
Compare these thoughts.

Is there a difference in these thoughts?
Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend".
After that, look at a thought about the character labeled "me”.

Is there a difference?
Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?

[rich879]

When I think about a friend, I see a clear picture of them overlapping my head and I get a warm presence in my chest.
When I think of a stranger, I see a clear picture of a person like before, but I feel less warm.
Both are thoughts with emotive response so it is the content that differs between them, not their natures.
They are have no reality beyond thought.

If I look similarly at myself, it is similar but more associated with the body and there are more compounded thoughts that continue to describe "me". I can see that this is also a fiction.

Something sort moves or clarifies when I do these observations but it does feel like I need to keep repeating it, and it seems like the feeling of being the one doing-the-thing is like an echo of the me-thought process being disrupted.

[graceabounds]

Very good.

it does feel like I need to keep repeating it, and it seems like the feeling of being the one doing-the-thing is like an echo of the me-thought process being disrupted.

The sense of “I need to keep repeating this”, where is it?
Is it a thought? A sensation? Both?

Look very carefully:
See if the one doing the observation only appears retroactively, as narration…

Can the echo do anything at all?
Can it change anything or just narrate?

Is there an entity here that could maintain clarity?

[rich879]

Thanks for your patience.
Some of these questions take longer for me to answer

The only thing that continues no matter what is happening and no matter what thought says is... impossible to point to but I might say that it is that which can be anything that appears and all thoughts, including their implied meanings, and the existence of meaning as meaning.
It's not presence as such because it allows presence. I can't identify it as anything that occurs.

I can't even say it's nothing, because it's simultaneously everything. At the same time, I feel and think and "am" despite it all being made of temporary occurrences of that which continues no matter what.

If you were asking me this in person you'd see me waving my arms around, trying to gesture at something I can't point at.
Looking this way, I do see that the echoes are just that, and they like that right now.