Jen seeking guidance

[graceabounds]

That expansion you describe sounds pleasant, at least from here… but it is being preferred? In other words,
how is ‘getting stuck’ known?

It’s when i don’t know what it’s going to do anymore and it’s distracting to me and takes my whole attention so that it would be hard to focus on “functioning” if i needed to . A fear of vulnerability because of how distracting it is. Kind of like going down a rollercoaster and it feels out of control and so attention can’t make sense of things and get a grip and kind of runs away/dissociates

Ah. So ‘intensity’ is lack of control and predictably?

This is simply the body-mind letting go of old management strategies. It’s scary, because you’ve believed your whole life that you needed to be able to get a grip or else you (or things) would fall apart. But there is nothing that needs to be gripped.
There is no one who could lose control.

Is intensity inherently bad? Look and see, ignoring the thought steam content for a moment.

In the very middle of that intensity, can you find anything that actually needs to be “managed” or “gotten a grip on”?

[Jenness]

That expansion you describe sounds pleasant, at least from here… but it is being preferred? In other words,
how is ‘getting stuck’ known?

It comes with the out of control fear, so didn’t initially seem pleasant, and then the “getting stuck” is a label on tension in my head that’s resisting it and resisting letting things do what they want, that when the tension is just left, is becoming sadness that then that feels like it gets squeezed out by muscles upwards but might be it moves upwards and there’s squeezing at the same time

Is intensity inherently bad? Look and see, ignoring the thought steam content for a moment.

I was pretty stuck in “I really don’t like this,” though it was about the sadness as well, a “sadness can’t be here. I can’t be a sad person.” Then if moving towards an “i don’t know what anything is,” then it becomes more “an uncomfortable spot in spaces” and then even further in , there’s a joy, but it also comes with a blurring of experience because caught in “out of control fear” and then when tune back in to parts of space /front of body and visual field in front of body, it blurred out, then there was sadness that was being blurred out. Think I’m in a bit of a loop. Will come back

In the very middle of that intensity, can you find anything that actually needs to be “managed” or “gotten a grip on”?

No, i just find “i really don’t like this” “i don’t want to stay with this” , and seeing it loosened that up a little and feels more like “okay if it’s just being with it, i can do that”

[graceabounds]

Think I’m in a bit of a loop. Will come back

Very good, stay with it. The intensity. Letting the thoughts pass, the labels pass, and looking at whatever is here.
Nothing to fix…

Is this sadness, this joy, this whatever is here ‘personal’? Could it just be passing like weather…

[Jenness]

Very good, stay with it. The intensity. Letting the thoughts pass, the labels pass, and looking at whatever is here.
Nothing to fix…

The thoughts of “I’m a tension and I’m going to tighten up and protect us from feeling what’s underneath” weren’t really passing. I think because i wasn’t coming in good faith of really wanting to feel it all, including the tension, and let them stay as long as they want, but to feel so that it’ll go way . Basically really hard for me to actually say, nothing to change, this tension can stay here forever covering up what’s underneath. “Nothing to fix” is helpful. Loosens things up a bit

Is this sadness, this joy, this whatever is here ‘personal’? Could it just be passing like weather…

takes a little time looking at the thought “this tension is mine” and then it loosened up some and felt less personal. Every time a personal thought is seen through, there’s sadness. Will keep doing. Needs more reps to learn

[graceabounds]

Every time a personal thought is seen through, there’s sadness. Will keep doing. Needs more reps to learn

Yes. That sadness is the body-mind letting go of what it thought was you, what it thought kept you safe, kept you real, kept you “someone.”
There’s a little grief, a little emptiness, a sense of something lost because the illusion is what’s dissolving.

Is there a separate self lurking anywhere in this movement? Someone who it is all ‘about’? Or does it all dissolve upon examination?

[Jenness]

Yes. That sadness is the body-mind letting go of what it thought was you, what it thought kept you safe, kept you real, kept you “someone.”
There’s a little grief, a little emptiness, a sense of something lost because the illusion is what’s dissolving.

I see, this makes a lot of sense. Was initially confused by the sadness. More sadness continuing to come through. Feels around losing the chance to be better, to be anyone else then whatever causes and conditions are leading to. And then when I see whether there’s a problem with that and it clears “how I am is a problem” thought, then fear comes. The belief is finding myself a problem was keeping unsafe things from happening. It think I’ll lose social skills (or make it even worse) and threat assessment. As the fear is allowed, it’s seeing a bit more, there’s at least no risk right now alone, and then even with humans, the risk is more loss and sadness if shunning happens than danger. And loss of self-worth, which competency is also linked to. There’s still belief of danger around loss of resources if low competency, because no stable source of income right now and feels like I need competency for that but fear of incompetence likely gets in the way more of competency , so it’s a loop. Still worthlessness, failed life, carrying charge and stickiness/attachment as they show up in the system. Bringing it up and then letting it be felt.

Is there a separate self lurking anywhere in this movement? Someone who it is all ‘about’? Or does it all dissolve upon examination?

No, it’s unclear who would be worthless, or without resources. It kind of flashes through my mind as an image of me as if I’m a movie character, and I’m sad for the character. when I get pulled in, it’s point attention focus creating the sense that there’s parts of my awareness that is murky and so could be hiding information that shows there’s a self operating. If broaden attention to include the whole body inside it, then it feels more I’m looking at my whole “self” and less like there could be an agent. The doubt feels like a vestige of hope to avoid the sensations from above

[graceabounds]

Hi Jen,

The doubt feels like a vestige of hope to avoid the sensations from above

Yes, you’re right on the nose here… doubt is just hope in disguise, the hope that some part of you could still find the right trick to avoid the rawness.

So let it all be here. Not just the sadness/grief… feel worthless, afraid, grieving, failing, whatever comes. don’t fix, run, or spiritualize, just let it move through.

And in the middle of all of it, still looking:
Does any of it need to be owned?
Is there anyone there who could be a problem?

And remember, Santa never existed. Christmas still happens. Similarly, all the doing, the action, the feeding oneself, work, conversations with others, moving from place to place still happen… unowned. This shadow of a self has a hook here. Keep playing in the small moments: dishes, getting the mail, showering, eating… does any of it require a self to do? Or is it just happening?

With all the love,
Becca

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

So let it all be here. Not just the sadness/grief… feel worthless, afraid, grieving, failing, whatever comes. don’t fix, run, or spiritualize, just let it move through.

Realize it doesn’t really move through as long as I think of them as “real.” Like here’s a real emotion I have to get comfortable with by being with it vs. here’s a sensation or energy that’s not very solid. And the emotion is pertaining to a real situation with real consequences. But when I play it out, it’s like okay, so if I’m not able to do this up to a certain standard then it affects the consequences, but then both of those pass and is gone and you just try again and again until you hopefully learn what works well and not and the consequences get a bit better, and the part that actually is being resisted is the label onto a self that’s bad at this and always will be, or if it was bad at it now, even if it gets better, now it’s somehow damaged its reputation for good. Some image of disgraced, irredeemably lost worth that doesn’t seem to necessarily match what’s going on. At most, it’s that some people think less of me and that hurts my pride, which was a new feeling. Felt like I saw the self-worth placed on people’s perception of my competency in a kind of visceral way and that shifted something. It was brief and then other things covered over but it was a kind of hopelessness that felt good to contact. And then kind of a dull ache in the heart that also feels grounding. Like a nothing I can get. Not sure how much of this is just following thoughts around, but will keep playing with it.

And in the middle of all of it, still looking:
Does any of it need to be owned?

No, and brings up more sadness and then when sadness seen to also be without an owner, then fear, but less bite than before. More like an “oh right i forgot about this scary thing”

Is there anyone there who could be a problem?

No, but to believe that feels like believing a more tied to self “I am not a problem” and that’s scary for the self, because then it’d drop the projects and plans for the self that it felt was keeping things okay and going to make things okay. But it also wants it go be true. Trying: no one there to be a problem or not be a problem, and that lands in bigger fear of, how am i supposed to navigate the world safety without a good or bad, okay or not okay, label on my self. That label feels like how I decide and plan in order to keep from being completely shunned or losing all resources. Am i really willing to let any possible outcome happen?, is the doubtful thought.

And remember, Santa never existed. Christmas still happens. Similarly, all the doing, the action, the feeding oneself, work, conversations with others, moving from place to place still happen… unowned. This shadow of a self has a hook here. Keep playing in the small moments: dishes, getting the mail, showering, eating… does any of it require a self to do? Or is it just happening?

Doesn’t require a self, but still keep operating with that belief. It’s a little hard to operate without that belief. Feels hard to put thoughts together and focus somehow. Kind of like a blank mind. Maybe just takes some time to get used to

[graceabounds]

Realize it doesn’t really move through as long as I think of them as “real.” Like here’s a real emotion I have to get comfortable with by being with it vs. here’s a sensation or energy that’s not very solid

There is a little formula, not sure if I gave it once before:
Thought + Sensation = Emotion

Whenever there is a strong emotion there is always an underlying thought or belief. It can even be as simple as this shouldn’t be happening. To work with the emotion you can look into the underlying thought, or you can look into the raw sensation. But by looking at them separately or considering whether they are truly related, the emotion moves.

Am i really willing to let any possible outcome happen?, is the doubtful thought.

:)

It is already happening. Does thought have any control over any possible outcome? Look freshly.

[Jenness]

There is a little formula, not sure if I gave it once before:
Thought + Sensation = Emotion

Whenever there is a strong emotion there is always an underlying thought or belief. It can even be as simple as this shouldn’t be happening. To work with the emotion you can look into the underlying thought, or you can look into the raw sensation. But by looking at them separately or considering whether they are truly related, the emotion moves.

Interesting! I tried it, and it felt like when i just look at the raw sensations, the thoughts are less part of the picture because I’m just curious about the sensations, and then when i look at the thoughts, they get seen as not an inherent truth, and then when I look at whether the two are related , the thought also becomes less true because it’s unclear what it’s referring to. I think when i just look at the sensation, when there isn’t a curious attitude, there can still stay the labeling as a problem thoughts . When I look at the thoughts , sometimes they stick but with enough time just looking at the thought repeat “this is a problem,” it does start to shift into new sensations (fear-like at perceived loss of control), and then starts repeating “this is a problem with the shifted sensations” And then seeing if the thought and sensations are related, leads to the most fear sensations, heart pounding, etc. Started using it to poke at different thoughts, “what if I don’t believe these sensations are fear, that this sense of the body means this is a body or it’s my body, that I’m controlling any of my movements, that this is tension and it’s keeping me safe from anything, that anything bad is going to happen/that the fear is right that there’s going to be a problem” and they come back and stick back, but it’s very freeing to see i can just not believe the thoughts! It used to feel like I had to look and use different lines of questioning to nudge the thoughts, because they were so much stickier. Still feels sticky around outside world events like if i do this, and then people respond this way, and then it could affect something i really feel is intolerable, like no resources or death, but other than those two, the rest of the consequences feel more similar to just sensations with a label of a problem without a real disastrous problem. Feels like there’s a lot of grieving I haven’t felt yet of the life I have that I would lose if those two things were to happen. Related grieve also comes up when I stop believing the thought that any of it is me, and there’s anything for me to do. It feels like I’ve lost a life and everything that was going to make it meaningful or enjoyable. then had the thought “ none of this is you,” then then fear came, and then with a bit of time, start to see but nothing bad is happening, everything is still here, like you’d said before. and then that grieve comes back, it’s first boredom then grieve, then when grieve is seen as not me either, back to just this feeling of can’t find anything to do and it’s such a feeling of frustration almost, or like a squirming in my skin feeling. It wants to run into distractions. Continuing to apply “it’s not me/mine” for ownership thoughts and “it’s not true” for “this is a problem” thoughts. Sadness and that frustration and fear continue to come up. Feels important to keep coming back and doing this, but the thought is “if there’s nothing for a me to do to resolve this feeling, am I just going to have to be with this feeling forever”
Had then the thought “what’s the point of me being here if there’s nothing for me to do “ to which the thought of “you’re not here” came , and then “oh.” And a peace, but then more sadness .

It is already happening. Does thought have any control over any possible outcome? Look freshly.

It appears whether I believe the thought affects the behaviors, but the thoughts themselves don’t control any outcomes. like if I believe a sensation is a problem, then I do an action to get away. So there feels like a deliberation of whether to believe the thought that certain future outcomes need to be avoided, and then it’d lead to playing it really safe, which tends to limit super negative outcomes (though also limits positive ones, and will come with a lot more suffering). Think I need to look more clearly because I’m confused about this point. I’ll look again tomorrow!

Thank you, Becca :) <3

[graceabounds]

You’re grieving not just an idea, but the entire scaffolding of a life story, the “you” who could win or lose, succeed or fail, be meaningful or ‘wasted’.

Is any feeling forever?

So there feels like a deliberation of whether to believe the thought that certain future outcomes need to be avoided, and then it’d lead to playing it really safe, which tends to limit super negative outcomes (though also limits positive ones, and will come with a lot more suffering)

Can you find a “deliberator” who chooses to believe a thought, or is there just the appearance of deliberation?… another weather pattern happening by itself?

Is the judgement of being in control of positive or negative events happening anywhere outside of another thought AFTER the perceived outcome?

[Jenness]

You’re grieving not just an idea, but the entire scaffolding of a life story, the “you” who could win or lose, succeed or fail, be meaningful or ‘wasted’.

Is any feeling forever?

Thanks, that makes it make more sense. I see, no, feelings don’t last forever. It’s felt like the underlying sadness and fear has been there for months, but I think they actually haven’t just stayed the same or around the same layer. Practicing the looking at raw sensations or thoughts or their relationship with the feeling now, which is like a feeling of hopelessness . there’s relief when just looking at sensations because the sensations without the meaning seem fine. Looking at the thoughts, it’s mostly “this is really uncomfortable” “want it to move through.” Look at whether they’re related, leads to more fear sensations , and “how am i supposed to push on anything if the thoughts aren’t linked to the sensations??”

Can you find a “deliberator” who chooses to believe a thought, or is there just the appearance of deliberation?… another weather pattern happening by itself?

Is the judgement of being in control of positive or negative events happening anywhere outside of another thought AFTER the perceived outcome?

Just the appearance of deliberation. Any being in control thought is a thought. But there’s the belief that if I spend time on a thought and come to not believe it, then it changes my behaviors , like I’m less likely to spend time trying to avoid the consequence because it’s no longer believed to be a big problem. Believing it was a problem (no resources, as an example) was what was driving a lot of the motivation towards working hard before. as that decreases, I’ve been less motivated to work to decrease likelihood of a low resource scenario. But I think it’ll be okay. I care enough about survival and health that if it were actually being threatened in the immediate, I’m sure the system will spring into action and work hard and be able to get by. And compassion should come in more as well over time hopefully and want a healthy life for myself and work hard to be able to provide that for this body
Orrr it could be when thoughts are believed and hooked onto, they cause a certain outcome , but when not hooked onto then thoughts are not parts of the causes and conditions..

[graceabounds]

Yes. Nothing missing. No one in charge.
Everything handled, always, by life itself.

Here is something special I’d like for you to work through, especially the last page. It is an exercise from the Libertarian Unleashed book.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PGLCj2 ... p=drivesdk

Let me know what comes up.

-Becca

[Jenness]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PGLCj2 ... p=drivesdk

Let me know what comes up.

The mind wants to both stop working and rest, but wants things to be how it is in the world before it can rest, but it’s realizing even if things were set up externally, say financially, there’s still internal self-worth stuff to work through, and so now it’s excited to just get comfortable with all the internal things so it can rest. The heart wants to feel fully and to have connection. So the mind and heart are kind of fighting initially, because the mind is still scared of letting all the emotions be, and then with some time, it gets a bit better and it’s at understanding more that , there’s nothing here to be scared of in this moment because nothing is actually happening but emotions. I like the open door in the area of the feeling imagery and letting the sensations move out through that door . Feels like a release valve.
Then for talking to feelings like resistance and fear, they say they’re protecting me from being hurt and rejected/shunned again. letting go of is scary because it feels like it protects me from being shunned, and it wants to tell me that we can never feel that hurt and rejection again, and then the underlying sadness tells me how bad it was, but then surprisingly tells me half of how bad it was , was from trying so hard after the initial rejection because there weren’t really other options for playmates, and also from attaching the rejection to self-worth and who i am. And that’s how the suffering was perpetuated: instead of , you got rejected and it gives you good feedback on how your actions come off and how to work on behaviors and/or feedback on the person rejecting you, it became you are someone rejection worthy and that won’t change, and just carried with me. Let that shame come through and be felt and they tend to move and then dissipate. Lots of layers of it
For, “What is here that needs to be protected right now?” The image is of the child above that doesn’t want to feel rejected anymore and feels it’s intolerable. It’s blended with me and doesn’t just feel like an image though. It feels like current me would be rejected and can’t tolerate that. “Find out what is really feeling threatened” “Look behind the fear” There’s fear and anger than I have no control, that I can’t make what i want to happen, happen. That the world isn’t at all how I want it do be. Not getting to the nothing needs to be protected part, will come back!

[graceabounds]

Very very good.

The heart wants to feel and have connection. The first half is certainly happening. Go back in and ask more about connection… connection to what? In what way is that connection already present? In other words is it possible to not be connected?

Fully grieve that suffering, the shame and then take a look: is there anyone at the core of it?

That child you, is she threatened in any way now? Is there a need to protect her here and now?

Is it possible to protect from/resist what is happening? Or just experience it? Does the thing that offers protection prohibit connection? Would it be ok to let that thing rest now?