Searching for truth

[Anastacia42]

Hi Whitney

A second guide has these questions.
:

You write "It doesn't feel like I have let go of every self thought right now".

"1) What is it that doesn't have to let go of every self-thought ?

2) And what does it mean that "it is not necessary to let self-thoughts go"? Not necessary in terms of what?

3) What emotional and thought reactions come up when reading these questions? What can be seen from that?"

Loving,

[WhoWell]

Where is ‘awareness’ happening? Is it a thing? Is it knowable?

Awareness is just a function of the mind. Another kind of thought. It is not knowable.

What is it that doesn't have to let go of every self-thought ?

It's just thoughts. Thoughts/impulses continue to arise about 'me' even though there is no separate me.

what does it mean that "it is not necessary to let self-thoughts go"? Not necessary in terms of what?

I couldn't find where this quote came from. My words were, 'It doesn't feel like I have let go of every self thought right now.' What I meant by that is that there are constantly thoughts about self/me/I still arising. It's easy to get caught back into the idea that there is a separate self. This is why I've been hesitant to say that I've 100% seen through it. It feels a little like a yo-yo going back and forth.

What emotional and thought reactions come up when reading these questions?

Frustration, tears. I'm not really sure if the self has been seen through. "It may be gradual and subtle but it is definitely not intellectual. It is experiential." I don't know if the little glimpses I've had are the gradual and subtle shift I'm looking for or if it's something more.

What can be seen from that?

I'm still believing the thoughts about self; that there's a me to see through it. It feels like I'm going in circles.

[Anastacia42]

Okay. Going back & forth is normal.

Watch these, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

This is just a beginning.

I'll submit your answers.

Loving

[WhoWell]

Thank you, Stacy. It's good to know that this is normal. The second video definitely feels relatable.

[Anastacia42]

Can you say 100% there's no separate "self?"

Have you noticed a shift in perception?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Another guide has a follow- up


"Let’s look at this sense of self you still believe in. Just be curious about it, what is it, what does it consist of, what makes it come and go? Don't be in a hurry to have the right answer, instead be curious about what it is and how it is across time. Spend some time with this, get really curious about this "self that is believed in", and then let us know what happens, what is seen."

Loving,

[WhoWell]

what is it

I don't know. When I look for it only thought and sensation can be found. It feels like a watcher, or the one who recognizes the thoughts and sensations. Often it's just a feeling behind the eyes. Sometimes, when there is a strong emotion, it feels like a desire for control. A desire to avoid feeling something.

what does it consist of

I think it's just another thought, a trick of the mind. That's all that can be found when it's looked for. I can't find it in direct experience. Yet not being able to find something doesn't mean it does or doesn't exist, and still leaves the question of who/what is doing the searching.

what makes it come and go?

This is why I think it's just another thought. It doesn't seem to be there until I'm thinking about it and looking for it. Sometimes things are just happening; when the mind just stops and takes in the experience. As soon as thought arises again though, then the me/I comes back.

[WhoWell]

Can you say 100% there's no separate "self?"

Intellectually this makes sense with what's been seen in our direct experience activities. If there is no butt/chair- just the feeling, then it makes sense that there is no watcher/watched, no me/world. The feeling still persists though.

Have you noticed a shift in perception?

This seems to be the hangup. I still don't know what you mean by this. There have been little aha moments, but nothing I would call a shift in perception. I'm still just trying to stay in the present moment, practicing looking for the I or doing butt/chair when I can.

[Anastacia42]

This seems to be the hangup. I still don't know what you mean by this. There have been little aha moments, but nothing I would call a shift in perception. I'm still just trying to stay in the present moment, practicing looking for the I or doing butt/chair when I can.

That is okay. I know you wish this was more linear and predictable, but it just isn't. You've only been here about 2 month.

You are looking. You are practicing.

All we can do is set up the conditions for awareness to dawn on you.

Do you have any questions?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Well, back to guiding, then. The shift in perception is what we are looking for. This could take days, weeks or months.

Back on August 13th you wrote:

The depression disappeared. I had a few blissful weeks during which it felt like life was just unfolding as it should and there were no worries.

There's a little more on the 18th

That's why we decided there had been a shift in perception.

Meanwhile, please take a look at this:

https://vinceschubert.substack.com/p/wh ... ven-when-i

Loving

[WhoWell]

Thank you for continuing to support and guide me through this. A couple of Vince's practices have come up naturally for me. It will probably take me a few read throughs to really get acquainted with the others.

Do you have any questions?

Always lots of questions, but most probably best just recognized as a thought and let pass. Mostly I'm feeling tired and discouraged. Some of that is just a busy life situation right now, though.

[Anastacia42]

Okay, please explain again where, exactly, you see a "self?" in Direct Experience.

What do you expect?

The depression disappeared. I had a few blissful weeks during which it felt like life was just unfolding as it should and there were no worries.

This was not a "little moment." I'm not in your head, but this definitely sounds like a shift in perception. We call it the honeymoon phase. It does not last, but it leaves us clear that there is no self.

What is missing? You sound like you had the shift; it lasted for weeks & then doubts happened when the honeymoon phase ended.

Have you listened to Pernille's videos on doubt? I am pretty sure that's all this is. She said, "we can't solve doubt. We can only dissolve doubt."

https://youtu.be/a_8N331jpA4?si=wHE8KmhO7n9uwLPp

Loving,

[WhoWell]

Okay, please explain again where, exactly, you see a "self?" in Direct Experience.

It seems to be what people around here call the "doer attachment." Everyday decisions arise, and it feels like there is an I who has to make the choice. When the choice is presented I can look and see that there is no self found in direct experience, yet still be tortured with feeling like a choice has to be made. For example, if I find out one of my teens hasn't been doing their homework. There is the option to try to help, or to let them learn a lesson through a hands off/let them fail approach. While right/wrong are only labels, I've also seen how making impulsive nihilistic choices doesn't work very well.

What do you expect? This was not a "little moment." I'm not in your head, but this definitely sounds like a shift in perception.

This was not a small shift in any way, and I don't want to minimize it because I'm not still in a honeymoon phase. I would say it felt like an everything is ok-even the hard stuff, because 'God' is in charge and I don't have to believe thoughts that say otherwise. It didn't feel like there was not a me. I realize as I'm writing this that those two comments are at odds with each other. How could I be in charge of me, yet everything outside of me is influenced? Maybe this goes back to expectations again. Others have written about having a clear feeling that there is no self seen driving, writing, etc. I don't feel like I've experienced anything like that. It's always felt like there are still personal choices.

Have you listened to Pernille's videos on doubt?

Yes, I have watched all of her fetter 2 videos multiple times. I'm still feeling stuck here not knowing if I've not seen through self or if I'm just struggling with doubt.

Thanks.

[Anastacia42]

I'm glad you watched the videos.

But you're confusing awareness with a self.

How could I be in charge of me, yet everything outside of me is influenced?

We have to get used to paradox and mystery once we see that there is no self. You're not in charge of "you" or anything else, "inside" or "outside." (neither of which exist - just more stories & labels)

2 opposite things will be true and we will have no idea why or how anything happens.

Do you realize that you did not give any direct experience? Everything you wrote is just thinking.

Please reply again telling only about seeing hearing feeling tasting and touching. Okay?

Then try this one. Report how it FEELS to SEE.

Doership Exercise

You see that there is no self to be found. Now let’s have a look at the feeling of being a 'doer’.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then: Look on your right.

Then look on your left.

Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).

When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).

And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).


So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is; can you turn seeing off?

Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose?

Did a 'self' choose something?

If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

I know you're frustrated.

You are simply in doubt and you're confusing awareness with a "self."

That's all. As soon as you stop doubting and are okay with having awareness that is not a self, you'll see.

Keep going to Vince's meetings and maybe the penny will drop.

Loving

[WhoWell]

Do you realize that you did not give any direct experience?

Yes, I did notice that. I recognize that I can't find anything solid to call a self in direct experience, yet the feeling persists. I think you're correct. I am seeing awareness as a self, but I don't know how to see it any differently.

Please reply again telling only about seeing hearing feeling tasting and touching. Okay?

It feels as though there is a see-er watching everything around this body. Watching hands type, yet that is just an image. 'My hands' or even 'hands' are a label the mind puts on the image after it is seen. The see-er is also just a thought added afterward. Hearing the birds outside the window, again is just a sound. The 'birds', 'outside', or 'me that's hearing' are labels added after the sound. The same goes for feeling, tasting, touching. There is still an awareness of these thoughts/images/sounds, and that is the only possible 'self' that can be found. I guess I'm confusing it with a separate self because it is limited to this personage. There is no awareness of anything not interacting with this body.

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is; can you turn seeing off?

No, I can't. An image is there being seen even if it is just the black space.

Can you NOT see what is seen?

No, I can't choose to not see it in the moment or choose to unsee it afterward.

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left

No, there is no choice to view/not view the image on the left.

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

No, closed eyes, like turning the head, only changes the image. The seeing can't be turned off.

Can you turn off seeing?

No

What did the 'chooser' choose?

The seeing/awareness can't be stopped. It still felt like there was a choice to close or open the eyes, or to turn the head.

Did a 'self' choose something?

I realize again that my previous answer is at odds with itself. Awareness can't be stopped/started. No other self can be found, yet it still felt like a choice was being made.

If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

It still feels like there is a choice of where or on what to place attention/awareness.