Jen seeking guidance

[graceabounds]

Hi Jen,
Been a little while, and as summer winds down now I thought I’d check in and see how things are unfolding, and what is present…
Much love,
Becca

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

Thanks for checking in :) I’ve been just sitting with layers and layers of sadness and fear, thinking that was just part of the process, but now thinking I should’ve asked. Is sitting with it helpful, or is that a separate thing than just seeing that there’s no self in the emotions? It feels like losing my life and my past and future in some ways so it might take a while for it to fully be felt. When I look at whether the sensations have a feeler, I don’t find it, but it’s still a little hazy and I get tricked again the next time, so I think I need to keep coming back to the last exercises you’d shared, until it becomes super clear? For things being a different world when I believe the thought, I just got a mini glimpse but it’s like the perspective shift between being a character in a movie vs watching the movie maybe?
Much love back!
Jen

[graceabounds]

Hello love,

Glad to hear from you. Seeing all these layers is great! And if it is still not, as you are reporting, “super clear” let’s move along to some other angles of inquiry.

When I look at whether the sensations have a feeler, I don’t find it, but it’s still a little hazy and I get tricked again the next time, so I think I need to keep coming back to the last exercises you’d shared, until it becomes super clear?

Great, each time, you already see: no feeler, no owner. Then a thought says, “but it’s hazy, I need to work harder, keep returning…” That’s the trick! That’s the character reasserting itself.

Check in real time: who is it hazy for? Is there actually an entity getting tricked? Or only the thought of getting tricked? :)

I just got a mini glimpse but it’s like the perspective shift between being a character in a movie vs watching the movie maybe?

That’s it… Except there’s no watcher either... Just the movie rolling. Just sound, sensation, thought, emotion.

It feels like losing my life and my past and future in some ways

This is a great launching point for an area we have not yet looked into together.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Much love,
Becca

[graceabounds]

Hi Jen,

How goes it?
Still sadness/fear?

Becca

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

Thanks for checking in :) Been meaning to respond, but keep feeling like I’m not getting to the bottom of it and wanted to do more first. It’s been so much fear..! Or it’s like fear, but it’s a bit hard to label and a bit hard to get to the thoughts driving them. (Is that a misunderstanding though? That there’s embedded concepts there driving the resistance) Think the concepts are like woah woah this is not okay, I’m going to lose everything and there’s no guarantee what’s left is going to be okay. And that there’s just something not okay like this is a problem about the intensity of the sensations. But seeing those thoughts and typing them out helped them soften and the sensations be better felt. And the reaction to the intensity of the emotions then felt more like just apprehension of a new thing, like if I saw a new animal I’d never seen and I wasn’t sure if it was safe or going to attack me.

There was also a lot of social fear with thoughts of what I do will influence what people think of me and that informs this label of the kind of person/identity that I am, and because these behavior patterns are pretty stable and not things I have that much control over, then it’ll predict future likelihood of me getting rejected as well. (Or also that I’ll get rejected in a more public or group setting or someone wants to make sure to shift group opinion of me and I get “canceled” and then it’s not even a future scenario.) And that rejection and negative self-image feels so bad, kind of like a helplessness, sadness, guilt, shame, fear, frustration. Sadness around loss of things i want and prediction of that continuing to happen, helplessness of being unable to prevent it or control it, guilt of taking up resources in the world without being a very useful self, frustration that this whole lump of concepts has been here for so long and won’t untangle and stop being triggered and stop causing me suffering, and also belief that this lump increases the likelihood of rejection, so also frustration that it won’t loosen and stop making rejection more likely. I’ve been wondering about cleaning up vs waking up, and if I’m getting sidetracked by cleaning up. Each time I go through and feel the above, I think it feels a bit better though.

Great, each time, you already see: no feeler, no owner. Then a thought says, “but it’s hazy, I need to work harder, keep returning…” That’s the trick! That’s the character reasserting itself.

Mmm okay I see that, and I can even see it sometimes in life but it’s just like a never ending layers and layers of trying to do its habitual thing and inevitably I end up believing them and acting from there in my daily life..

Check in real time: who is it hazy for? Is there actually an entity getting tricked? Or only the thought of getting tricked? :)

No entity, just thought!

That’s it… Except there’s no watcher either... Just the movie rolling. Just sound, sensation, thought, emotion.

This is super helpful, “just the movie rolling”! A lot of my emotions feel like maybe they trace back to fear of death at the end of the chains, and this gives a different perspective on it. Maybe the movie ends at some point, but it’s not as scary as losing all the things I thought I was going to lose with death or not having gotten what I wanted in life before death. Is having that perspective also using a thought to avoid emotions though..?

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

There feelings like there’s only “now” and the past is a memory that I can’t confirm. Because of that memory it feels like things keep moving and shifting, and also because I don’t think I can lock down any frame to see what’s here in any moment so it just feels like a shifting thing. So somehow now feels like it’s always here but things still feel like that shift in the now? No experience of any time passing though, just experience of things shifting

Thank you for your help, Becca :) Life is both more intense emotionally but also better somehow
Jen

[graceabounds]

Jen, I’m glad you showed up as you are, with this much honesty. There is a lot here, but I will just offer a couple of places to look.

Stop right now. Drop every idea about “fear.”
Before the word, before the interpretation, what exactly is happening right now?
What is here in actual direct experience… NOT as “fear,” NOT as “me having fear,” NOT as “I need to work through this,” but as pure, raw, unfiltered sensation?

There was also a lot of social fear with thoughts of what I do will influence what people think of me

Is there a do-er here? One who is responsible for what actions arise? Or how they are received?

I’ve been wondering about cleaning up vs waking up, and if I’m getting sidetracked by cleaning up.

Whoa there. That’s the seeker’s identity.
Every single “next step” you imagine is just the story looping. There is nothing offered here that needs to be earned in any way.

No entity, just thought!

Yes. Exactly. Go back through everything in your last message and look:
What is here that is not a thought?

What remains when you don’t engage a single label, story, or hope for resolution?
What’s here when you do nothing, try nothing, fix nothing?

Describe it. don’t explain, just point.

Much love,
Becca

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

Thank you, really helpful to not label sensations as emotions!

And it’s all thoughts! The thought that there’s a me here that’s centered to things out there that I’m perceiving, including thoughts, sensations, objects, is really tricky.. and then when those shift a little, there’s sensations that flood that automatically get labeled as fear and the thought alarm “something’s wrong this is not okay!” I’m not even sure what thoughts there are about what it’s afraid of anymore. Feels like basic safety is at stake. And then it pulls my attention and leads to an action of pulling away/dissociating a little. I think my brain is confused in general, what happens in the appearances still matter right? Otherwise, we would not be told to be kind or to try to stay alive. And if my perception is shifted, there’s no guarantee I’d function as well. I already feel like I hit things more and are less careful with what I do and say. I do have the sense that as dissociation and pulling away lessons, and compassion and intimacy increase, those may readjust. I know these are still thoughts, but wonder if they’d help the brain settle in and struggle less, or if it’s just reaching for safety in an unhelpful way still.

Thank you!!
Love,
Jen

[graceabounds]

Hello!

I just want to reassure you that this is actually a ‘good’ sign and something that is common.

There are sensations. They are unknown or unexplored. With the story stripped away there is a rawness to them. Look directly: what about the sensation says ‘fear’?

See if you can see that that too is a label, an interpretation. The pull to dissociate is the system’s strategy to avoid these sensations. This can also look like avoidance, and a pull to stop the conversation. This is why when you signed up for Liberation Unleashed there was the guidance to post every day, that way we can tackle it in real time and keep momentum. I don’t’require’ this, but am available if you’d like to increase the pace here. :)

The antidote is to sit in the sensations. The point isn’t to try to fix it or find a thought that makes it “safe.” The practice here is:
1. Drop the label (“fear,” “unsafe,” “wrong”).
2. Go beneath it to the raw sensations: location, temperature, pressure, vibration.
The point isn’t to try to fix it or find a thought that makes it “safe.” That’s still selfing. The practice here is:
1. Drop the label (“fear,” “unsafe,” “wrong”).
2. Go beneath it to the raw sensations — location, temperature, pressure, vibration.
3. Stay there, without reaching for a story or escape.
4. Notice how the sensations morph when you don’t run.

This isn’t to make you function worse. Paradoxically, this stabilizes functioning. Compassion and intimacy naturally increase as dissociation drops, not because you “try” but because the avoidance mechanism relaxes.

Let your attention move to the strongest sensation in your body. Don’t name it. Don’t label it. Just feel its texture. Where is it? How big? What’s its edge like? Does it move? Stay with that for a few seconds.

Tell me (without labels or story) what you actually feel right now.

Much love,
Becca

PS- Being kind and staying alive is a natural movement, it continues without all the ‘shoulds’ sounding in your head.

And if my perception is shifted, there’s no guarantee I’d function as well

Are ‘you’ functioning well now? Have you been?

There was never anyone doing this doing so everything continues on as before…

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

Sorry about that, I think I’d missed the every day posting guidance, or maybe forgot it out of avoidance?? Memory is not as good nowadays so I can’t say which happened, but I apologize for not following the guidelines. I do look everyday though, but I think was looking with the hope that if I’m with the sensations and thoughts underneath enough they’ll loosen up. and buying into the thought that if the emotions are there, I’ll get caught by them and they’ll affect how I act, so I have to decrease them or decrease resistance to them. The thinking I think I was buying into for the slow response was the shifts were going slow and taking a lot of being with for me to get tricked less, so I was waiting til there were shifts I can sense to respond, so that I don’t keep reporting the same thing and keep taking up your responding time. Thanks for pointing out the avoidance, I’d like to respond everyday moving forward! (Except for 10/16-20 where I’ll be in a retreat).

“Rawness to them” - that helped me! The sensations all have the same rawness, no matter what label I put on them.

Let your attention move to the strongest sensation in your body. Don’t name it. Don’t label it. Just feel its texture. Where is it? How big? What’s its edge like? Does it move? Stay with that for a few seconds

There’s a density/pressure in the stomach to throat area that is slightly warm and moves upwards and outwards. It doesn’t have a clear edge but the density decreases as it leaves where my body is and then blends with this background dispersed something that feels like it’s in the air but i can’t really find a sensation other than maybe it’s a slight fogginess like slightly more density than what the air is

Are ‘you’ functioning well now? Have you been?

There was never anyone doing this doing so everything continues on as before…

there’s the idea I wasn’t functioning well enough as is, because I keep getting caught and listening to the emotions, and so there’s self-improvement needed and there’s a self that needs to control that. I think the control piece I’m caught on. What I do does shift what happens, and what I think does tend to affect what I do. Are those illusions? Or is it more the thoughts aren’t within my control either , which that one I see

Thank you, Becca! Love,
Jen

[graceabounds]

I do look everyday though, but I think was looking with the hope that if I’m with the sensations and thoughts underneath enough they’ll loosen up. and buying into the thought that if the emotions are there, I’ll get caught by them and they’ll affect how I act, so I have to decrease them or decrease resistance to them. The thinking I think I was buying into for the slow response was the shifts were going slow and taking a lot of being with for me to get tricked less, so I was waiting til there were shifts I can sense to respond, so that I don’t keep reporting the same thing and keep taking up your responding time

Haha, thats a lot of layers of thought! Just whatever arises each day is valuable, does not need to be lengthy. Am looking forward to the momentum that creates.

It doesn’t have a clear edge but the density decreases as it leaves where my body is and then blends with this background dispersed something that feels like it’s in the air but i can’t really find a sensation other than maybe it’s a slight fogginess like slightly more density than what the air is

Is there a place where you stop and the world begins? Or is there nothing dividing you from the world?

I think the control piece I’m caught on. What I do does shift what happens, and what I think does tend to affect what I do. Are those illusions?

Hold up one hand. Turn the palm up, then down, a few times.
Watch as closely as possible:
Where is the command to turn the hand coming from?
Is there a little “me” somewhere issuing orders?
Does a thought control it—or does movement just happen, and thoughts come after, claiming it?

Do this several times. Look for any moment of “decision.” Look for a controller, not a thought about control.

If you see: movement, sensation, thought—all just appearing, no one doing it, let that in fully. If you still feel there must be a doer, look closer, even more rawly.

Report from raw experience, not memory or conclusion. In actual experience, is there anyone controlling or choosing?

Much love,
Becca

[Jenness]

Hi Becca,

Is there a place where you stop and the world begins? Or is there nothing dividing you from the world?

Nothing dividing me! Maybe the sensations of feelings feel more like a ripple with rings that decrease in solidness when it disperses, but the center density is in my body. But also have times when it feels more uniform everywhere so it’s unclear to me whether it’s only centered around my body because of a thought

Hold up one hand. Turn the palm up, then down, a few times.
Watch as closely as possible:
Where is the command to turn the hand coming from?
Is there a little “me” somewhere issuing orders?
Does a thought control it—or does movement just happen, and thoughts come after, claiming it?

Do this several times. Look for any moment of “decision.” Look for a controller, not a thought about control.

If you see: movement, sensation, thought—all just appearing, no one doing it, let that in fully. If you still feel there must be a doer, look closer, even more rawly.

Report from raw experience, not memory or conclusion. In actual experience, is there anyone controlling or choosing?

Can’t find anyone turning the hand, but feel like there is something before raising the hand for the first time, like a want, and that want can be described in words, like want to figure this out so want to do this activity, but it’s not automatically in words. Same thing for day to day things, I feel like there’s an urge or a want before things happen. Like for eg. an itch, an aversion feeling to it, and then scratch. For things where I feel like I’m choosing between two things, it feels like there’s competing wants and then thoughts are helpful to clarify those wants according to a future want, like I want to do this now, but if I project into the future with thoughts, I want the thing in the future enough to not do this thing now.

With gratitude,
Jen

[graceabounds]

Good. That’s raw, direct looking.

Can’t find anyone turning the hand, but feel like there is something before raising the hand for the first time, like a want, and that want can be described in words, like want to figure this out so want to do this activity, but it’s not automatically in words. Same thing for day to day things, I feel like there’s an urge or a want before things happen.

Let’s be ruthless…

Look now, at the very moment of wanting, before any story.
Is “wanting” something you do, or does it just appear?
Does a “me” create the want, or does the want simply arise (like the itch, like any other sensation)?

So prior to words, before labeling, what is the want? Where is it, how does it arise?
Is there any actual boundary where “you” cause it, or is it *just there* like all sensations, just appearing, shifting?

Now, for choices:
When there’s a “decision” between two wants, is there ever a clear chooser that picks one? Or do thoughts just narrate: “I want this… but maybe that… if I wait, then…”
Does this narration cause anything, or is it just reporting on wants and sensations that have already shown up?

Try this now:
•Think of two things you could do next.
•Watch as the “wants” for each option move and shift.
Can you find a point where a “self” chooses, or does one want eventually outweigh the other—and action happens?

[Jenness]

Hi Becca,

Look now, at the very moment of wanting, before any story.
Is “wanting” something you do, or does it just appear?
Does a “me” create the want, or does the want simply arise (like the itch, like any other sensation)?

Is just appears , and then if it isn’t followed , there’s sadness sensations. It’s similar to emotions, where it feels like there’s an imbedded concept or thought in there, like an association between things in the labeled world - is that an illusion too, or okay to think of it as associations that can be expressed as concepts? Getting to the concepts I feel like helps me really see it and then they shift , or is that seeing concepts a redundant step or to avoid direct contact?

So prior to words, before labeling, what is the want? Where is it, how does it arise?
Is there any actual boundary where “you” cause it, or is it *just there* like all sensations, just appearing, shifting?

They’re just there like all sensations, but there’s also an ownership or believing they need to be acted on because I don’t like being with it without acting on it, feels uncomfortable or just not what I expect the world to feel. It’s unclear to me why I don’t like it though.

Now, for choices:
When there’s a “decision” between two wants, is there ever a clear chooser that picks one? Or do thoughts just narrate: “I want this… but maybe that… if I wait, then…”
Does this narration cause anything, or is it just reporting on wants and sensations that have already shown up?

For everyday things, it just feels like whichever has the stronger want wins and I do that. For longer term things, in more complicated situations, it does appear to use thoughts to weigh things out, like pros and cons or calculating how much time something takes, etc.

Try this now:
•Think of two things you could do next.
•Watch as the “wants” for each option move and shift.
Can you find a point where a “self” chooses, or does one want eventually outweigh the other—and action happens?

There does seem to be a point at which one wins over the other, but I’m not in charge of choosing when that is or which one wins

Thanks!
Jen

[graceabounds]

Very good. Very clear.

Wants appear. Sensations appear. Thoughts appear. Ownership is a feeling, not a fact. The “chooser” is never found, only a shifting, competing current of urges and mental narrating, and then action just happens.

I’m not in charge of choosing when that is or which one wins

Great. So, what is left, right now, when you drop all effort to manage, analyze, or understand?

there’s also an ownership or believing they need to be acted on because I don’t like being with it without acting on it, feels uncomfortable or just not what I expect the world to feel. It’s unclear to me why I don’t like it though.

Yes. This structure, the illusion of choice, is built to avoid the raw sensation alongside the thought of wanting things to be different than they are. No need to understand why, that is a movement of selfing, just see: Is it *your* discomfort, or just another sensation/thought, arising with no controller?

What happens if you let the discomfort or sadness be utterly raw, let it burn, with no attempt to fix or label or manage?
Does it kill you, or does it pass on its own, just as it arose?

[Jenness]

Great. So, what is left, right now, when you drop all effort to manage, analyze, or understand?

Just stuff happening, some labels of “sadness” and “let’s drop the levels. It’s just the next thing that’s here”

Yes. This structure, the illusion of choice, is built to avoid the raw sensation alongside the thought of wanting things to be different than they are. No need to understand why, that is a movement of selfing, just see: Is it *your* discomfort, or just another sensation/thought, arising with no controller?

It’s not my discomfort or thought if i look , but I keep operating as if it is when I’m not looking.. it still feels like it’s “my” life , and i can’t just let it go however it does, and the little bit of hope that I have some control over the causes and conditions, like some ability to shift it. But more and more, sinking in that it can shift, but it’ll shift the “best” the less I think i have control and try to do something. There’s just doubt because it’s counter to everything I operated by, and if i’m wrong it’ll be my “responsibility” cause I could’ve done something. Helpful just to let the thoughts be seen though as not really something that needs to be believed.

What happens if you let the discomfort or sadness be utterly raw, let it burn, with no attempt to fix or label or manage?
Does it kill you, or does it pass on its own, just as it arose?

I see, so is the above from the previous question, seeing concepts imbedded and seeing they don’t need to believed, just a way to manage the emotions, or can it help loosen things up to pass through?
If so let it be, it kind of sticks around then shifts from “sadness” to “fear” sensations , then those shift but stick around a bit and then started moving up in my body but kind of seemed like there was more that kept coming, so has not passed yet