Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
- LoraBorealis
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2025 1:32 am
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Rali,
Yes of course. As I mentioned, I was unable to connect while traveling and just got back last night. I need to collect my laptop at work this morning and will respond shortly.
All the best,
Laura
Yes of course. As I mentioned, I was unable to connect while traveling and just got back last night. I need to collect my laptop at work this morning and will respond shortly.
All the best,
Laura
- LoraBorealis
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2025 1:32 am
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Rali,
Okay, I'm back in the saddle! I spent most of my time away meditating so hopefully I didn't loose too much traction.
When I close my eyes and "see" the blackness it is clear that the eyes are not doing the seeing. They also cannot see themselves and I don't have more eyes to do the seeing of the seeing. When I open my eyes immediately after that experience I understand that "this" is being seen.
It seems there is this continual is-ness of appearances without a seer. It feels spacious and perhaps a bit detached, maybe from an identity.
I watched the videos while at the airport before departing. One of the videos is no longer available, but I watched the other two. Fascinating!
My eyes fill with tears and my head feels funny. A sort of detachment comes over me as I look around the space I am in. My experience tells me I will snap back into work mode all too soon. Maybe not.
Thank you.
Laura
Okay, I'm back in the saddle! I spent most of my time away meditating so hopefully I didn't loose too much traction.
I understand! It is not what the eyes are seeing, but THAT the eyes are seeing. How can they "see" blackness.When the eyes are closed—what exactly is doing the seeing?
Hah, yes, I get this.Can you find any distance between the blackness… and what’s seeing it? Can you see the eyes seeing? :) How? With what? More eyes?
yesIsn’t that distance imagined?
(Rods/cones) They are in my memory of biology class. Only.Where are those—in direct experience?
NoAre you seeing them? Tasting them? Touching them? Hearing them?
conceptsOr… are they just thoughts—concepts taught and repeated?
Just a thought.Are they appearing now—or are they an idea about now?
Nodo you see “light bouncing off objects and striking rods and cones”?
This.Or do you just see… this?
I cannot find them.Where are the rods and cones now? Without imagining—can they be found?
It is all just here.Can you find the process? Or is this just already appearing—with no explanation?
This.What’s actually here?
Seeing is happening.Are the eyes seeing the world? Or is seeing simply happening?
Right now: are you seeing through eyes—or just seeing
When I close my eyes and "see" the blackness it is clear that the eyes are not doing the seeing. They also cannot see themselves and I don't have more eyes to do the seeing of the seeing. When I open my eyes immediately after that experience I understand that "this" is being seen.
Where is the seer?
It seems there is this continual is-ness of appearances without a seer. It feels spacious and perhaps a bit detached, maybe from an identity.
I watched the videos while at the airport before departing. One of the videos is no longer available, but I watched the other two. Fascinating!
They cannot be divided, claimed, owned.Then what could be divided? What could be claimed? What could be owned?
Wonderful! I have always thought there was a field or web that held everything but this makes sense.So is the container needed for something to be always here - in different intensity but still here?
There is not "field" and it cannot be seen or touched.Where is the field? Can it be seen? Touched? Felt?
YesOr is it just another idea—a label glued over what’s actually showing up?
NoCan you find any border that separates the field from what appears “in” it?
YesOr is the field just another word for experience, used when thought wants to sound deep?
No line, no borderWhere is the line?
No, because there is no borderIs there colour plus seeing?
No, no divisionSound plus hearing?
Just sensation being experiencedSensation plus feeler?
YesOr just seamless “experience” - undivided, label-less, boundary-less, self-less?
The body says this is experience, I suppose. But since there is no body it must only be a thought.Who says this is “experience”?
ThoughtWhere is that claim coming from?
This is ...well...this IS. An ongoing happening.What is this?
My eyes fill with tears and my head feels funny. A sort of detachment comes over me as I look around the space I am in. My experience tells me I will snap back into work mode all too soon. Maybe not.
Thank you.
Laura
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Laura
It’s good to have you back! :)
So experiencing is physical senses + thought. If there is experience, one or more of those are present. If I close my eyes and feel spacious, that happens through sensations (no empty/ ransparent field). Is there anything here that is not the senses? Sensations would be “physical”, but there are also sensations when you close your eyes that don't have a location (unless they are mapped onto a mental image of the body). The way I look at sensations is that they include anything that is sensed, such as touching a cup or a feeling “spacious and perhaps a bit detached”. The feeling of spaciousness is a plethora of sensations happening in quick succession, making it seem and feel spacious. But it's good to remember that we can only experience see, hear, feel, taste, smell and thought. Anything not in the first five is thought (e.g. about special states/superpowers)
So now look further: How is it possible to "maintain" something (i.e. sensation)? Present moment is just one present moment, and has anything to do with a duration of a certain state (e.g. sensation).
Where exactly does “snap back” happen?
Can you find the moment the “seer” returns, or is that just another thought about a future that never arrives?
When the mind/thought says “I’ll lose this,” it’s just narrating over what’s already present.
No one ever “has” this — so no one can “lose” it, see it/not see it
Right now, before the “snap back” happens—where exactly is it?
Can you locate it anywhere but in thought?
When the story says “I’ll lose this,” what’s actually here—colours, shapes, sounds, sensations—before the words?
Is there any gap where a “loss” could occur?
Furthermore, next time you watch a movie, notice how you get sucked into the story; how emotions come up and judgements appear. Then all of a sudden, there is like a flip back to the room - as if focus zooms out. Observe how it happens. At which point is there a decision to snap out? Is there one that makes that decision or does it simply happen, effortlessly? Is it different from being sucked into mind movies/ snap back into work mode? Look: if there’s no one/no thing (e.g. field) holding this, what could possibly let it go or get caught into? What/who meditates?
Here’s the quick “catch it in the act” exercise you can do:
When the “snap back” or “I’ll lose it” thought appears— STOP right there. No following, no arguing. Before adding meaning—check:
What is here right now?
(colour, sound, sensation—before the words)
Can you find a gap where this could be lost?
Silently label the thought as “story” (or even “blah blah”).
Then let it dissolve back into the same space as the colours and sounds. Rest in what’s left. Notice: nothing was ever gained—so nothing can be lost.
Love
Rali
It’s good to have you back! :)
It feels spacious and perhaps a bit detached
Notice the hook — you are still measuring this against some imagined “work mode” future or an “I” who can lose it. Is this a special state? What is spaciousness in DE?My experience tells me I will snap back into work mode all too soon
So experiencing is physical senses + thought. If there is experience, one or more of those are present. If I close my eyes and feel spacious, that happens through sensations (no empty/ ransparent field). Is there anything here that is not the senses? Sensations would be “physical”, but there are also sensations when you close your eyes that don't have a location (unless they are mapped onto a mental image of the body). The way I look at sensations is that they include anything that is sensed, such as touching a cup or a feeling “spacious and perhaps a bit detached”. The feeling of spaciousness is a plethora of sensations happening in quick succession, making it seem and feel spacious. But it's good to remember that we can only experience see, hear, feel, taste, smell and thought. Anything not in the first five is thought (e.g. about special states/superpowers)
So now look further: How is it possible to "maintain" something (i.e. sensation)? Present moment is just one present moment, and has anything to do with a duration of a certain state (e.g. sensation).
Where exactly does “snap back” happen?
Can you find the moment the “seer” returns, or is that just another thought about a future that never arrives?
When the mind/thought says “I’ll lose this,” it’s just narrating over what’s already present.
No one ever “has” this — so no one can “lose” it, see it/not see it
Right now, before the “snap back” happens—where exactly is it?
Can you locate it anywhere but in thought?
When the story says “I’ll lose this,” what’s actually here—colours, shapes, sounds, sensations—before the words?
Is there any gap where a “loss” could occur?
Furthermore, next time you watch a movie, notice how you get sucked into the story; how emotions come up and judgements appear. Then all of a sudden, there is like a flip back to the room - as if focus zooms out. Observe how it happens. At which point is there a decision to snap out? Is there one that makes that decision or does it simply happen, effortlessly? Is it different from being sucked into mind movies/ snap back into work mode? Look: if there’s no one/no thing (e.g. field) holding this, what could possibly let it go or get caught into? What/who meditates?
Here’s the quick “catch it in the act” exercise you can do:
When the “snap back” or “I’ll lose it” thought appears— STOP right there. No following, no arguing. Before adding meaning—check:
What is here right now?
(colour, sound, sensation—before the words)
Can you find a gap where this could be lost?
Silently label the thought as “story” (or even “blah blah”).
Then let it dissolve back into the same space as the colours and sounds. Rest in what’s left. Notice: nothing was ever gained—so nothing can be lost.
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
- LoraBorealis
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2025 1:32 am
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Rali,
Thanks!
I decided to go through this a second time and answer these questions again. This state feels more like a non-state.
No
Not maintaining feels more natural
I think I am getting this because of your question that is third to the end.
There is no need for a 'seer' and one doesn't exist!
Do you mean the seer or my attention? Maybe thats the same thing. It feels diffuse and spacious (I can't find any other word that could describe this)
Still, it is more of a lack of singular focus than anything.
What is actually here...this ongoing unfolding/happening.
No gap.
Stet
Do I really though? If there is no seer what thinks it has to 'focus its attention"? Maybe this attention just happens and I don't have to think that I've lost something.
i get it now.
Stet
no gap.
I will play with this today and see how it goes.
With gratitude,
Laura
Thanks!
It certainly feels like a special state. I don't know...Is this a special state? What is spaciousness in DE?
I decided to go through this a second time and answer these questions again. This state feels more like a non-state.
Hmmm....Is there anything here that is not the senses?
No
It isn't possible to maintain anything.How is it possible to "maintain" something (i.e. sensation)?
Not maintaining feels more natural
Thinking. Strategizing about work tasks and deadlines.Where exactly does “snap back” happen?
I think I am getting this because of your question that is third to the end.
It happens as soon as I return my focus onto tasks.Can you find the moment the “seer” returns, or is that just another thought about a future that never arrives?
There is no need for a 'seer' and one doesn't exist!
My attention, or perhaps 'lack of focus' is a better way to describe it, is more diffuse and feels as if it is outside of this body.Right now, before the “snap back” happens—where exactly is it?
Do you mean the seer or my attention? Maybe thats the same thing. It feels diffuse and spacious (I can't find any other word that could describe this)
It feels more like a lack of thoughts than a particular thought. So, maybe if it is indeed a thought, it is something like "oh, this is spacious and peaceful. I want to keep it."Can you locate it anywhere but in thought?
Still, it is more of a lack of singular focus than anything.
There are colors, sounds, tastes and a lack of focus on work tasks and thoughts perhaps. Though, if we weren't talking about work mode I understand what you are saying. I have been practicing 'no thought' often enough to see that I don't need it very much in my routine life.When the story says “I’ll lose this,” what’s actually here—colours, shapes, sounds, sensations—before the words?
What is actually here...this ongoing unfolding/happening.
Hmmmm.Is there any gap where a “loss” could occur?
No gap.
It happens with the thought "okay, I need to work on this spreadsheet..." which makes me focus on thoughts again. In non-work daily routines or going for walks it is easy to let go of thoughts, there is no gap where a loss could occur. As you can see, I'm having trouble reconciling these two parts of my life.At which point is there a decision to snap out? Is there one that makes that decision or does it simply happen, effortlessly?
Stet
It feels different. I need to strategize and make plans at work, not only listen to birds and focus on my breath.Is it different from being sucked into mind movies/ snap back into work mode?
Do I really though? If there is no seer what thinks it has to 'focus its attention"? Maybe this attention just happens and I don't have to think that I've lost something.
Good question.Look: if there’s no one/no thing (e.g. field) holding this, what could possibly let it go or get caught into? What/who meditates?
i get it now.
This.What is here right now?
Stet
Not at the moment.Can you find a gap where this could be lost?
no gap.
I will play with this today and see how it goes.
With gratitude,
Laura
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Laura
Furthermore, the feeling of “spaciousness” is no more special than the hum of the fridge or the pressure of a chair. It appears, it shifts, it dissolves—none of it belongs to anyone, none of it needs holding.
Notice:
“Snap back” = only thought narrating, “now I’m back in work mode.”
Before that thought—colours, shapes, spreadsheet cells, keystrokes—already happening. No gap.
“Spaciousness” = a word/label pasted on top of subtle raw sensations + lack of commentary. Nothing more.
“Losing it” = impossible. Nothing is being held. The moment thought says “I had it, now I lost it,” check: what’s actually here?
So the question to keep burning is:
Without using the words “spaciousness,” “state,” “focus,” “attention”—what’s actually here right now?
No state survives that question.
Only this. Always.
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Where is the “you” in the looking/focusing/paying attention? What is looking made of? There is what IS happening (indescribable but experienceable) and the description of it (aka thought). But where exactly is the look-er/focus-er?
Focus on focusing.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control? What is “focus” in DE? Is it something like a torch lighting up things in the dark waiting to be illuminated? OR…
Is there anything more than “sense experience”/indivisible this + thought that says “I’m focusing on…” (object empty of inherent existence)? Is there focusing + object (senses), or just the senses, just this/ whatever IS, including the thought
I guess what I’m pointing to is – is there a difference between focus and labelling??
Love
Rali
It certainly feels like a special state. I don't know...
I decided to go through this a second time and answer these questions again. This state feels more like a non-state.
Emptiness in the Buddhist sense simply means that something is empty of self-nature. And no-thingness means that things are dependent. Just like a school is a thing that doesn't exist. It is empty of school-essence. If there is 'awareness' of nothingness/emptiness/spaciousness/ "non-state" state, that is often a subtle image of "nothing" (aka thought) with very subtle sensations. True nothingness means absolutely nothing. So if there are no sensations and there is nothingness, that's often a subtle thought that is trying to create something out of very subtle sensations. Have you ever experienced absolutely nothing - no heartbeat, no breathing, no "aliveness"?Still, it is more of a lack of singular focus than anything.
Furthermore, the feeling of “spaciousness” is no more special than the hum of the fridge or the pressure of a chair. It appears, it shifts, it dissolves—none of it belongs to anyone, none of it needs holding.
Notice:
“Snap back” = only thought narrating, “now I’m back in work mode.”
Before that thought—colours, shapes, spreadsheet cells, keystrokes—already happening. No gap.
“Spaciousness” = a word/label pasted on top of subtle raw sensations + lack of commentary. Nothing more.
“Losing it” = impossible. Nothing is being held. The moment thought says “I had it, now I lost it,” check: what’s actually here?
So the question to keep burning is:
Without using the words “spaciousness,” “state,” “focus,” “attention”—what’s actually here right now?
No state survives that question.
Only this. Always.
Still sounds like a conclusion – the result of thinking, not seeing it. Let’s check this out, this is a good time to look at the idea of focus and attention.It feels different. I need to strategize and make plans at work, not only listen to birds and focus on my breath.
Do I really though? If there is no seer what thinks it has to 'focus its attention"? Maybe this attention just happens and I don't have to think that I've lost something.
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Where is the “you” in the looking/focusing/paying attention? What is looking made of? There is what IS happening (indescribable but experienceable) and the description of it (aka thought). But where exactly is the look-er/focus-er?
Focus on focusing.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control? What is “focus” in DE? Is it something like a torch lighting up things in the dark waiting to be illuminated? OR…
Is there anything more than “sense experience”/indivisible this + thought that says “I’m focusing on…” (object empty of inherent existence)? Is there focusing + object (senses), or just the senses, just this/ whatever IS, including the thought
I guess what I’m pointing to is – is there a difference between focus and labelling??
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
- LoraBorealis
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2025 1:32 am
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Rali,
Thank you,
Laura
NoHave you ever experienced absolutely nothing - no heartbeat, no breathing, no "aliveness"?
This.what’s actually here?
This.Without using the words “spaciousness,” “state,” “focus,” “attention”—what’s actually here right now?
There is no me to be found. Looking or focusing is...maybe...a thought?Where is the “you” in the looking/focusing/paying attention? What is looking made of?
I can't find one. I want to say "consciousness" is looking but that also suggests a looker. I am feeling a bit anxious and frustrated right now. But I understand that is just another thought! ArgggBut where exactly is the look-er/focus-er?
I get it, I see it, it moves by itself. But I also battle the thought that "I" am forcing myself to re-focus when my attention takes up a thought and runs wild for a few minutes. "I" have to get back to "no thought" or at least it often feels that way. However, I see that is just another thought or series of thoughts. I feel like I'm going in circles right now.Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
It does feel like there is an "I" guiding my attention and lighting up things in the dark...Is this something you control? What is “focus” in DE? Is it something like a torch lighting up things in the dark waiting to be illuminated? OR…
I suppose. It is another thought labelling a DE.Is there anything more than “sense experience”/indivisible this + thought that says “I’m focusing on…” (object empty of inherent existence)?
I see no difference at the moment. Ah! Okay, No there is no difference.Is there focusing + object (senses), or just the senses, just this/ whatever IS, including the thought
I guess what I’m pointing to is – is there a difference between focus and labelling??
Thank you,
Laura
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Laura
Beautiful — you caught it.
That whole sense of “I’m focusing” was nothing but the label itself.
Let's double check...
Feels like, seems like = thought content
Nothing in DE is feels like or seems like. It’s either here (smelled, felt, seen, heard, tasted) or not (thought). So how exactly are “you” or any other entities doing that?? What is the mechanism?
Look!
When a bird chirps—does “focus” happen before the sound?
Or does the chirp just arrive, already complete, already undeniable?
Where’s the gap where “focusing” could sneak in?
Where’s the gap where a “you” could light it up like a torch?
Is focusing any different than the narration of “what is already happening”? “Now I follow my breath, now I can feel my hands touching the couch”, but all that is happening is feeling and thinking. Even that is too much, because where is the border between thinking and feeling? So if the separation exists only in thought what is there to focus on?? Does this need to be focused on to happen as it IS already happening – whole undivided indescribable? So tell me: what exactly is left of “focusing” without the word?
Just this sound, this colour, this tingling…?
No focuser. No torch. No one behind it.OR? What do you SEE?
Love
Rali
Beautiful — you caught it.
That whole sense of “I’m focusing” was nothing but the label itself.
Let's double check...
Remember…It does feel like there is an "I" guiding my attention and lighting up things in the dark...
Feels like, seems like = thought content
Nothing in DE is feels like or seems like. It’s either here (smelled, felt, seen, heard, tasted) or not (thought). So how exactly are “you” or any other entities doing that?? What is the mechanism?
Look!
When a bird chirps—does “focus” happen before the sound?
Or does the chirp just arrive, already complete, already undeniable?
Where’s the gap where “focusing” could sneak in?
Where’s the gap where a “you” could light it up like a torch?
Is focusing any different than the narration of “what is already happening”? “Now I follow my breath, now I can feel my hands touching the couch”, but all that is happening is feeling and thinking. Even that is too much, because where is the border between thinking and feeling? So if the separation exists only in thought what is there to focus on?? Does this need to be focused on to happen as it IS already happening – whole undivided indescribable? So tell me: what exactly is left of “focusing” without the word?
Just this sound, this colour, this tingling…?
No focuser. No torch. No one behind it.OR? What do you SEE?
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
- LoraBorealis
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2025 1:32 am
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Rali,
(can you tell I'm amazed right now?)
With gratitude,
Laura
Right! It is just labelingSo how exactly are “you” or any other entities doing that?? What is the mechanism?
Look!
Sound first! This is so clear!When a bird chirps—does “focus” happen before the sound?
It arrives already complete and undeniable!Or does the chirp just arrive, already complete, already undeniable?
It cannnot!Where’s the gap where “focusing” could sneak in?
(can you tell I'm amazed right now?)
No gap!Where’s the gap where a “you” could light it up like a torch?
No difference, it is already happening so focus is more like labelling afterwardsIs focusing any different than the narration of “what is already happening”?
No border.where is the border between thinking and feeling?
This is already happening so focus follows as a thought/label.So if the separation exists only in thought what is there to focus on?? Does this need to be focused on to happen as it IS already happening – whole undivided indescribable?
Just the sensation, the colors/shape, sound.So tell me: what exactly is left of “focusing” without the word?
This. movement, unfolding, no 'I' to control it, just the direct continual experienceNo focuser. No torch. No one behind it.OR? What do you SEE?
With gratitude,
Laura
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Laura
Bird sings → undeniable.
Pressure in hand → undeniable.
Blackness behind closed eyes → undeniable.
Nothing extra is needed. The “focuser” was just a comment afterward, pretending to be the cause.
So right now—drop even the word sensation, drop even the word experience.
What’s actually here—before the labels stick?
...
Let’s finish it all with the idea of control, choice and decisions. Please explore the exercises below and report your findings! Remember that we’re looking for some kind of entity, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’ - we are not interested in “seems like” and “feels like” entities, but ones that could be described.
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.
2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)
Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?
In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?
3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...
How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?
Please take your time with each exercise! Repeat as many times as you need and then write the answers for all of them. Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire with the questions.
Love
Rali
Yes! See how the illusion of “focusing” collapses into nothing but a story laid on top?This is already happening so focus follows as a thought/label.
Bird sings → undeniable.
Pressure in hand → undeniable.
Blackness behind closed eyes → undeniable.
Nothing extra is needed. The “focuser” was just a comment afterward, pretending to be the cause.
So right now—drop even the word sensation, drop even the word experience.
What’s actually here—before the labels stick?
...
Let’s finish it all with the idea of control, choice and decisions. Please explore the exercises below and report your findings! Remember that we’re looking for some kind of entity, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’ - we are not interested in “seems like” and “feels like” entities, but ones that could be described.
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.
2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)
Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?
In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?
3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...
How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?
Please take your time with each exercise! Repeat as many times as you need and then write the answers for all of them. Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire with the questions.
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
- LoraBorealis
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2025 1:32 am
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Rali,
biggish decision
I have gone through this three times, but will do so again later tonight.
With gratitude,
Laura
Just this.What’s actually here—before the labels stick?
Directions were followedHow is the movement controlled?
Directions are being followed without much thoughtDoes a thought control it?
No, reading the words was followed by the action of my hand turning over. No "I" located.Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
There really wasn't a conscious "decision" - action immediately followed readingHow is the decision made to turn the hand over?
The qualities of my preferences were clear and immediate, they did pop up by themselves... the taste of chai, the warm mug, etc.In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
I read the directions and counted while the preferences took a back seat. There was not conscious decision-making happening.In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
I did not choose. There was no "I" choosing.Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?
My thought was more like "what is this all about?" There was no thinking about who was making a choice. Just reading and action.In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?
biggish decision
No, the outcome of the decision was based on a set of circumstances. All of the conditions were outside of my influence. I did not choose the conditions, I did not choose the follow-up reactions from others.How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?
I made a decision to speak out against a request. Initially, thought says it was "I" who made the decision to speak. But there really was no choice/no decision. No decision-maker. There really was no other way it could have happened because "I" had no control of the circumstances and there is also no "I" to control anything.What was in your control (according to thought)?
I have gone through this three times, but will do so again later tonight.
With gratitude,
Laura
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Laura
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3
Where exactly do intentions come from? Can you find the first spark before it’s already here?
Does the sensation of “intending” contain a label saying “mine”? Or is that only thought after?
Right now, can you find more than one possible future actually present before thought imagines them?
If there’s no chooser, where would free will sit?
Can you find even one movement, sensation, sound, thought — that waits for permission before showing up?
What’s being controlled right now? Breathing? Heartbeat? The words appearing in thought?
Love
Rali
Talking about cause and effect, here is a video that reveals a different cause and effect:There really wasn't a conscious "decision" - action immediately followed reading
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3
Where exactly do intentions come from? Can you find the first spark before it’s already here?
Does the sensation of “intending” contain a label saying “mine”? Or is that only thought after?
Right now, can you find more than one possible future actually present before thought imagines them?
I just wanted an example of a decision that you would normally consider that you’ve made. The point was to look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live” and see that even there there’s no “you” making a decision. It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with “actions” based on previous conditioning. The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before. Why does the wind blow? It just blows. Yes we can say it happens as a result of previous events but there’s no entity “wind” that does the blowing. There is no wind that decides to blow. It’s just language. What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”. So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content? Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE things are just happening. Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?I made a decision to speak out against a request. Initially, thought says it was "I" who made the decision to speak. But there really was no choice/no decision. No decision-maker. There really was no other way it could have happened because "I" had no control of the circumstances and there is also no "I" to control anything.
If there’s no chooser, where would free will sit?
Can you find even one movement, sensation, sound, thought — that waits for permission before showing up?
What’s being controlled right now? Breathing? Heartbeat? The words appearing in thought?
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
- LoraBorealis
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2025 1:32 am
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Rali,
The decision was to speak up against lifting a heavy object at work (a difficult choice because I knew I would be gaslit after having to bring it up yet again). I think I succeeded in that looking, as in the end, there was no 'me' making the decision, just one event that led to another and another.
I can't find anything
I like this: There is nothing causing anything to appear, thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening. In DE things are just happening.
Thank you!
Laura
It arrives as a thought then followed by another thought and another thought.Where exactly do intentions come from? Can you find the first spark before it’s already here?
The 'intention' arrives first, followed by thought. Sometimes too much thought!Does the sensation of “intending” contain a label saying “mine”? Or is that only thought after?
No, they are thoughts followed by more thoughts one at a time.Right now, can you find more than one possible future actually present before thought imagines them?
The decision was to speak up against lifting a heavy object at work (a difficult choice because I knew I would be gaslit after having to bring it up yet again). I think I succeeded in that looking, as in the end, there was no 'me' making the decision, just one event that led to another and another.
Hmmm...Why does the wind blow?
What is “moving of the hands” in DE?
I can't find anything
I don't see anything causing the appearances, I see no cause and effect outside of thought content.So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?
NoIs the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?
Free will does not seem to exist since this is all just happeningIf there’s no chooser, where would free will sit?
NoCan you find even one movement, sensation, sound, thought — that waits for permission before showing up?
No controller, breathing happens, heartbeat happens, thought happens.What’s being controlled right now? Breathing? Heartbeat? The words appearing in thought?
I like this: There is nothing causing anything to appear, thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening. In DE things are just happening.
Thank you!
Laura
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Laura
How is life these days?
Look right now:
This breath — did anything ask you before it came?
This thought — did it knock on a door for permission?
This heartbeat — was there a choice to start or stop it?
It’s just appearing, one seamless unfolding, without cause, without owner. Now notice: when thought says “I intended,” “I chose,” “I succeeded,” — is there any evidence in the raw sensations that a me did it? Or is it just narration after the fact, like a sports commentator shouting “Goal!” long after the ball already flew into the net?
So tell me — right now, in this ordinary moment — what exactly needs to be chosen, controlled, or intended for this to be exactly as it is?
But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.
Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.
Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.
What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future, and between these type of thoughts and a thought in general?
If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?
Love
Rali
How is life these days?
Exactly — crystal clear.No controller, breathing happens, heartbeat happens, thought happens.
Look right now:
This breath — did anything ask you before it came?
This thought — did it knock on a door for permission?
This heartbeat — was there a choice to start or stop it?
It’s just appearing, one seamless unfolding, without cause, without owner. Now notice: when thought says “I intended,” “I chose,” “I succeeded,” — is there any evidence in the raw sensations that a me did it? Or is it just narration after the fact, like a sports commentator shouting “Goal!” long after the ball already flew into the net?
So tell me — right now, in this ordinary moment — what exactly needs to be chosen, controlled, or intended for this to be exactly as it is?
Perfect! But when you say one at a time, how is this known and from whose perspective? From memory (aka another thought)? We can have a look at “time”- past present, future - another angle of cause and effect. There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.Right now, can you find more than one possible future actually present before thought imagines them?No, they are thoughts followed by more thoughts one at a time
But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.
Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.
Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.
What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future, and between these type of thoughts and a thought in general?
If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
- LoraBorealis
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2025 1:32 am
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Rali,
With much gratitude,
Laura
Hah. I feel good (!) but kinda weird. I find myself (these eyeballs) watching life unfolding knowing there is no "I" that has any control. I am afraid I am staring off into space contemplating/watching quite a bit. It also feels like a bit of a relief...the choices I made could not have been any other way. There was no "I" making the choices.How is life these days?
No, breath is happeningThis breath — did anything ask you before it came?
NoThis thought — did it knock on a door for permission?
No choiceThis heartbeat — was there a choice to start or stop it?
Definitely narration after the fact.is there any evidence in the raw sensations that a me did it? Or is it just narration after the fact, like a sports commentator shouting “Goal!” long after the ball already flew into the net?
Absolutely nothing. There is no 'thing' to control, it is exactly the way it is. It cannot be any other way.what exactly needs to be chosen, controlled, or intended for this to be exactly as it is?
Only known in the now. Here is this thought. Now this thought. Now this thought. It unfolds.how is this known and from whose perspective? From memory (aka another thought)?
No line of tme.But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
It is now giving way to now. Now. Now. Now.Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Only through thought-memory.Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
Present moment is alway on the move. It cannot be measured, only in an inaccurate man-made construct called "nanoseconds" which is not correct because it is always unfolding.How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
NoJust look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
There is no way to measure since it is always unfoldingHow long does the ‘now’ last?
Here and here.Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
As soon as it appears it is changed and gone.When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
A thought-memoryWhat is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
I think my brain just broke. I don't know what time is, aside from a man-made construct to communicate experiences.So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
With much gratitude,
Laura
Re: Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work
Hi Laura
I'll wait for you to answer the rest of the questions before replying fully
Love
Rali
Great! :)I think my brain just broke. I don't know what time is, aside from a man-made construct to communicate experiences.
I'll wait for you to answer the rest of the questions before replying fully
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
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