Stream Entry

[Nicholas]

more thought watching, but nothing to report today, not being able to see anything

What is it that is actually knowing the experience of feeling like a thought watching other thoughts? Is that a separate entity?
I don't know


So is this notion of "me" - an entity separate from all of life - just a thought?
I don't know

hug

[Alless]

I don't know

Any time you look when you think the thought "I" or say the word "I", can you find a separate entity that is that "I"?


hugs


Alan

[Nicholas]

Any time you look when you think the thought "I" or say the word "I", can you find a separate entity that is that "I"?

there's an attachment to thoughts, specially to "I/me type" thoughts. this attachment is like an energy (feels like that) that keeps the belief alive, the belief that
"yes, of course there's an entity"

there's still a lot of work to do.

today...

+ it seems that thoughts have different "weights".
music seems to have 0 weight. some thoughts that barely manage to appear have some small weight.
but there are some thoughts with a lot of self-identification that have a lot of weight and it seems I have to focus on those

+ I discovered you can't "force" thoughts to watch them. example...
repeating in my mind "I'm Nicholas" accomplishes nothing.
same happens if a heavy weight thought appears and I try to "repeat it" in order to dissect it.

only thoughts I can "watch" are those that appear on their own, they seem to have some kind of... signature, trace, key... that makes them genuine.

so crazy

+ also a bit confused

if a thought appears and says "I'm tired". do I believe it or not? if I look at my body I do feel exhaustion but then that means that thought was right!
if thought says "I don't want to keep doing this" and I feel fatigue... then it's a valid thought too... or not?
but then... if I rest, it means I'm believing it.

or maybe I should pay no attention to any thought at all?

+ or maybe it's simpler... ALL thoughts need to be watched and not believed. 100% of them. which means I have to let go all of them.
even thoughts like "oh if I do this it seems I can watch thoughts better!" even the ideas, the mental responses to sensations, feelings (in the mind), memories... Everything needs to be let go of.

IDK, I'm a bit confused today...

+ ...
...
...

OK. got it.
I managed to stay in that... space between thoughts you talked about. for 30m. the entire meditation session, basically.
I just dived right into it.
how?
easy.

I stayed in vision. let the music play.
then, every and each thought that came, was acknowledged, not believed and "okayed" and let it vanish.
engaged with none of them. no reaction. complete neutrality.

this allowed to instantly show how they arise on their own, same with the music. and it showed how they are just... empty. devoid of any power. belief in them, engagment is what make them real.

nothing needed to be done. no thought was engaged with. 0. nada. emotionless. unreactive. I just focused on my vision. every thought that came was "okayed" moving my eyes, like saying "ok" but not paying attention to its content.

so I stayed in that place for the whole session.

I do admit it felt... different than normal everyday experience. like losing a part of myself.

so... will just keep doing this type of practice and see what happens.

hug

[Nicholas]

I actually cried a bit in that state because... I don't know what I am.

[Alless]

I actually cried a bit in that state because... I don't know what I am.

Really sit with this "not knowing what I am".
And as you do is there any way you can deny that "you" are?



How does it feel to feel both that "you" are and not knowing what "you" are at the same time? (For example joy or peace or tightness or confusion or relief or tears again or something else?)




Hugs

Alan

[Nicholas]

+ repeated same routine, but for 1h this time
focused on vision. thoughts were seen, but I engaged with NONE of them

+ I noticed that... believing in them is a habit, an like all habits it takes time to... "disconnect". but it's happening. and the pull from thoughts it's smaller and smaller

+ it's very... interesting because narrator talks less and less, so it's like thoughts "slow down"

+ things would happen around me.

for a moment it looked like it was raining outside
I checked if music out there stopped playing
I noticed I was falling asleep a couple times
etc
etc

but there was no "thought" about that.

your questions

Really sit with this "not knowing what I am".
And as you do is there any way you can deny that "you" are?

well, there's a problem. I can't sit with a thought, and I can't repeat the impression that I had yesterday :S

How does it feel to feel both that "you" are and not knowing what "you" are at the same time? (For example joy or peace or tightness or confusion or relief or tears again or something else?)

today I felt... nothing discernible. maybe a bit of curiosity. but a lot of neutrality. not peace, not joy, not tightness, not confusion, not relief, not tears.
just... well... I dozed off a couple times, got really drowsy to be honest. but I kept medidating and moved up a bit on my seat to wake up. but stayed there in that... "state"... in that... non-engagement with the mind. thoughts would came, seen, but paid no extra attention.

hug

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas

well, there's a problem. I can't sit with a thought, and I can't repeat the impression that I had yesterday :S

I'm not asking you to sit with a thought - in this case the thought "I don't know who I am" - or recall what happened yesterday. I understood you were telling me that as a result of direct investigation you "don't know who I am" - that is the truth for you. I'm asking you to tell me AGAIN FROM YOUR DIRECT EXPERIENCE IN THIS MOMENT AS YOU LOOK ADAIN. Yes, when you write to me to report what you find , you then use thoughts expressed as words but the investigation itself requires NO THOUGHT or reference to thought to SEE what is happening. This can be repeated again and again

So please investigate again

Sitting with that realization that you don't know who you are right in this moment please LOOK again...... is still true for you that you don't know who you are?




And at the same time can you say that "you" are not? Or the other way to put it is ........ is there any way you can deny that "you" are, or that "you exist"?




Take LOOKING itself. The very LOOKING that is experienced happens does it not? Can the brain/intellect actually fathom that LOOKING which happens? But can you deny that it happens?




Hugs


Alan

[Nicholas]

today... (and yesterday)

+ oh, remember my mind works different. I have monologue (thoughts) and below: constant music.
so... I was wrong! I wasn't in the space between thoughts... I was in the music between thoughts!!

so I guess what comes next is... maybe the space between music? (yeah, something like that, see next points)

+ I noticed I can enter this state instantaneously. that's pretty crazy huh? I went to shower and I tried to see if it was possible to enter there. and I did.
then in the middle of the night I was having insomnia (normal for me, sadly) so I entered this state again... and fell asleep in like 5 minutes.

+ in this state it seems that... thoughts are coming yeah but they are seen so so so fast that they never fully form. it's like they are compressed. also there's "no need to think about anything". it's pretty... weird. because it's like suddenly I'm able to... just... REALLY observe what happens in the mind and not comment about it or anything.

+ then noticed music also stopping for a couple seconds

+ then I did another 40min meditation session. music was there. thoughts came, were seen so fast that they don't get to form, they more like white nose.
then... MUSIC STOPPED. and it revealed itself to be just another thought. it wanted to appear a couple times but was seen as another thought and vanished.

so there was... kinda silence? but thoughts were still coming but they were more like white noise, not forming themselves... it was like a static.

and this kept for like 10 minutes. I was a lil afraid that ... maybe I was shutting down thoughts accidently? like forcing them down? but I know that's not possible at all, you can't stop thoughts at will.


is this process ok Alan?

Sitting with that realization that you don't know who you are right in this moment please LOOK again...... is still true for you that you don't know who you are?

all answers are coming from the mind. but there are no answers outside of that.
and this is going to sound weird but, at the same time, the question "what I am? who I am?" doesn't even look like a question when I look into it.

And at the same time can you say that "you" are not? Or the other way to put it is ........ is there any way you can deny that "you" are, or that "you exist"?

yeah, I exist.



Take LOOKING itself. The very LOOKING that is experienced happens does it not? Can the brain/intellect actually fathom that LOOKING which happens? But can you deny that it happens?
can't deny it.

hug

[Alless]

is this process ok Alan?

Just follow your intuition as you are doing....and especially this .......

just... REALLY observe what happens in the mind and not comment about it or anything.

yeah, I exist.

So you exist. With that recognition can you find any entity, separate to life that is this existence that you are? Or another metaphor to use or way to look at it is .........are you a separate pool of water that has defined boundaries and is "walled off" from the river of life?



Hugs


Alan

[Nicholas]

noticed a couple days ago the "light feeling/vacation like" is gone and now I feel more bleak, more disconnected from everything than ever.

So you exist. With that recognition can you find any entity, separate to life that is this existence that you are? Or another metaphor to use or way to look at it is .........are you a separate pool of water that has defined boundaries and is "walled off" from the river of life?

yep, I feel completely walled of from the river of life. there's me and then "life".

nothing to add today

hug

[Alless]

yep, I feel completely walled of from the river of life. there's me and then "life".

That's how it often feels Nicholas. Yes it's true that it FEELS like that at times but is that ACTUALLY true.
Please look and tell me about the wall that causes you to feel so separate?



Is there actually any walls when you LOOK without thinking or feeling that there is a wall?



Or could it be that "you" are like a current in the river of life or a little whirlpool in the river that SEEMS to differentiate itself and is still the river?



hugs


Alan

[Nicholas]

Please look and tell me about the wall that causes you to feel so separate?
Is there actually any walls when you LOOK without thinking or feeling that there is a wall?
Or could it be that "you" are like a current in the river of life or a little whirlpool in the river that SEEMS to differentiate itself and is still the river?

it's not a wall.
I just like I'm separate from the world, disconnected from the outside.

hug

[Alless]

I just like I'm separate from the world

Just like .....when you say "just like" does that mean it is so?



Do you see the story in that?




These stories are part of such deep conditioning that we acquiesce without a whimper yet the gnawing discontent continues because we unwittingly are avoiding what's there. And we actually have such subtle ways of distracting ourselves from the truth. When we finally give up and honestly LOOK, void of belief or disbelief, we can't but see it.
Have you looked for the wall? Please look and tell me honestly what you find.



Right now as you look where does what you experiencing start and where does it end?



Hugs


Alan

[Nicholas]

Just like .....when you say "just like" does that mean it is so?
Do you see the story in that?

everything is a story, every answer I give! (not complaining to you or blaming you)
but yes, I can see. "separate" "world". part of stories.

These stories are part of such deep conditioning that we acquiesce without a whimper yet the gnawing discontent continues because we unwittingly are avoiding what's there. And we actually have such subtle ways of distracting ourselves from the truth. When we finally give up and honestly LOOK, void of belief or disbelief, we can't but see it.
Have you looked for the wall? Please look and tell me honestly what you find.

ok. I give up. I look honestly and I only see...

thoughts (monologue and music)
sounds
visuals
sensations
(then tastes and smells but barely notice those unless they are obvious)

that's it. there's nothing else. there's no wall, there's actually nothing to describe. just that stuff up there: thoughts and senses.
everything I try to describe involves a story, so I really don't know how to go about this.

ok, let me try this... my best effort, my best try...

I'm gonna just assume that thoughts are there but they don't mean anything. like they are just... noise.

ok, so we have... again...

SOUNDS! VISUALS! SENSATIONS! THERE'S SOME MUSIC TRYING TO GET IN THE SCENE AND THERE'S THOUGHTS TOO!

pretty interesting. now ... "I think": if this is so obvious and easy and you only need an honest look and it's always there then WHY CAN'T I SEE IT?!?!

and I just realized... THERE'S SOMETHING MORE! I JUST SAW IT! IT'S SO OBVIOUS!

it's a ... search! it's the looking going on! it's the sense of "ok, I'm looking for the truth, where it is!?"

when you remove all other stuff... (senses, thoughts) then it's there raising its head!

it's not a thought or a sensation or a sound or a visual. it doesn't feel like any of that. it feels like... well... let me see again...

you know how it """feels"""? like some kind of a "process going on", like "something is running on the background"!

OH MY GOD, the more I try to focus or put my attention on it the more it escapes! WHAT IS THIS? does this make any sense?

it seems like it shows its head when I'm not looking for it, or relax. but I can sense it pretty subtly in the background.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggh let me try again.

let's look at everything with fresh eyes. like I don't know anything. like there's thoughts and visual and images and sensations and I seem to be there not moving because I don't even know what movement is or what any of those things are....

(when I do this thoughts really seem to calm down, until they appear and distract me haha)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I think I know what you meaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!

(sorry I'm being too obnoxious)

you write: "When we finally give up and honestly LOOK" and there's the KEY.

yeah, there it is. saw it. okay, I don't know what's going on here.

when I give up and completely stop focusing...
no sense receives attention.
and thoughts slow down a lot.

and you know what? I can sense something else going on! that process I told you about before. the "still waiting, still looking" process.

(am I deluded myself with this writing? is it just another dead end or big grandiouse story?)

Right now as you look where does what you experiencing start and where does it end?

there's no start or end. there are senses and thoughts always going on. and then also this new... thing... that I can't... even... describe or focus on.

hug

[Alless]

(sorry I'm being too obnoxious)

I feel no obnoxiousness at all !!

ok. I give up. I look honestly and I only see...

thoughts (monologue and music)
sounds
visuals
sensations
(then tastes and smells but barely notice those unless they are obvious)

that's it. there's nothing else. there's no wall, there's actually nothing to describe. just that stuff up there: thoughts and senses.
everything I try to describe involves a story, so I really don't know how to go about this.

You say "so I really don't know how to go about this" here's the rub ....there is nothing else that needs to be known other than what you have done to go about what you've done !!
That's the truth. I hear you !!! You gave up and looked honestly. Nothing else to do ! Simply relax and accept what you've experienced.

Now if you want to send yourself "crazy" just let thoughts present you with all sorts of doubt and despair will start to have a party.

So once more do what you did and just give up and look honestly.
Has anything changed?

OH MY GOD, the more I try to focus or put my attention on it the more it escapes!

Could that be because there is no-thing for attention to land on? Look again and tell me.

yeah, there it is. saw it. okay, I don't know what's going on here.

Of course you don't know what's going on. NO-ONE KNOWS. All there is is what you described at the beginning which I've highlighted above. When you really get this everything changes.

and then also this new... thing... that I can't... even... describe or focus on.

What happens when you drop the word "thing" from what you write. So that it reads like this.....

and then also this new...... that I can't... even... describe or focus on.

I would not be surprised if that statement can start to drive thinking crazy. And the truth is that thoughts will NEVER give you the answer. You've really looked and you've reported what you saw - something that cannot be explained.
However let me check with you ........does that feel somewhat closer to the truth of what you experience when you drop the word "thing" from what you wrote in that sentence of yours that I quoted?




What are you now telling yourself after digesting this post?



Hugs


Alan