Help!

[Porky]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Worked for several years to go from conceptual to actual experience of this truth. Read Liberation Unleashed several times and cannot seem to grasp the actual experience. When I get close, I get physically ill. Most recent ex. got bit by a centipede, the poison infected my intestines. Many others that seem out of my control. Need Help!

What are you looking for at LU?
Help in discovering why I'm creating constant life-threatening health issues without apparent cause especially every time I get closer to the truth of the current illusion. Maybe it's what's meant to be or so contrived from my higher self that I'm too unconscious to know truly what's going on. It's quite a challenge. It feels like my illusionary ego is fighting with the truth and will kill me before it lets me see the truth and wake up in fear it will lose control over my mind identification.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A way to heal myself and experience the no SELF! Lately I have been praying, telling myself to let go and accept What is! Working on staying present and keeping my attention in the Now! Nothing seems to help as just a couple of days ago I got food poisoning from a Pineapple! Weird!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have studied with the Sufis for many years in the 70s and spent time meditating with Muktananda also in the 70s.
Have studied books by Orin and DaBen on creating with light.
Currently I have been reading Eckhart Tolle "NOW"
and doing the exercises of Angelo DiLullo and his book "AWAKE"

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[graceabounds]

Hello there,
Thanks for your patience in waiting for a guide. I’ll be happy to be with you in this inquiry if you are still interested?
-Becca

[Porky]

Hi Becca,
Yes, I'm still interested in waking up on a experiential level. If you can assist me, that would be great!
I am on Hawaii time so your responses may get delayed. Thank you, Porky

[graceabounds]

Great, Porky,

To begin, please read and say to yourself several times: *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

Don't try to get anything right, just share what is seen, unfiltered. Generally this process will be driven by seeing what is already happening, what is already the case. What is effortlessly seen while engaging questions and exercises is what is important. What you actually write me is secondary to that.

In gratitude,
Becca

[Porky]

Hi Becca,
When I repeat *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*.
Thought comes into my head! Drop of water in a vast ocean. Then..
Numbness... No thoughts or feelings. If I think about it, I can then feel my fingers typing.
Numbness again...nothing happening. As I sit in my chair, pain begins to take over my being
as now my hip has been bothersome for a couple months. I get some relief by doing body awareness
exercises. Then it comes back, taking me back into my egoic mind. Thinking...past...future
Thanks, Porky

[graceabounds]

Good. Stay right here, and repeat again slowly:
“There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be.”

This time, if/when the numbness appears don’t move away, don’t wait for the next thought. Let the numbness be the entire field of experience.
Ask: does numbness itself have an owner? Does it need a “you” to exist?

Then, if/when pain arises in the hip, try the same thing. Don’t try to fix, stretch, or comfort it. Drop the label “hip” and feel only the raw data, what is here?… heat? density? pulse? movement? shape?

In this manner, in direct experience, is there anything separate that has the numbness or has the pain? Or is there only sensation, plus a thought claiming “mine”?

If some other sensation is present or prominent, be with that fully, without the story about it. Explore what is present. Follow as it moves.

Report exactly what’s seen, without any past or future commentary.

-Becca

[Porky]

"There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be.

The numbness is a sensation it's just there, and some other sensation that
feels like radiating energy that has become painful.
Feeling like searching to find the NO me or I, which is not a conscious thing.
And don't really know what to look for! Saying to myself... keep looking
stay in the moment and that lasts for a moment or two.
Then thoughts and sensations come creeping back and lose that experience.
Then remind me... where are you? Who am I?

There are sensations in MY hip that come and go! Do they need me?
They only need the body. If I tell myself to be the watcher/witness
then sometimes it becomes a different experience that lasts a few minutes
until the thoughts of past and future return.
Because of so many instances of illness/pain don't really know what is real
or not. It's difficult at times to know anything.
having a sense that there is NO self/I. Call it intuition or something else.
It feels very contrived, like there is something supposed to be learned or uncovered,
but my unconscious ego won't let it go! Too much to protect? LOL
Porky

[graceabounds]

Right now, you’re treating the sensations, thoughts, and shifts in experience like a mystery to solve, as if there’s some special vantage point from which the “no-self” will finally be caught and pinned down.

The numbness in the hip. The “radiating energy.” The watching. The coming and going of thoughts. The sense that the moment slips away….All of this is THIS — exactly what’s here. No-self isn’t hiding behind it; it’s that there’s no “you” at all. (Whats more there never was.)

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

[Porky]

I did the thought exercise and here is the result:

Where are they coming from and going to? Nowhere
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? No
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? No
Can you predict your next thought? No
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? No
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts? No
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought? No
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? No
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’? No organization was found. The subject matter comes randomly

You make statements like:
it’s that there’s no “you” at all. (What's more there never was.)

I understand this statement from a conceptual perspective. I've heard this statement many times. As I have said I don't grasp it experientially. Do you think just repeating it over and over will make me experience the no self?

[graceabounds]

Hello,

Do you think just repeating it over and over will make me experience the no self?

What I was aiming to flush out was the body’s response. If you read back two of your messages ago, there is a dip of a toe into sensation and then thought thought thought…

So if these thoughts are not yours, don’t come from anywhere and are not ‘personal’, is it possible to completely ignore whatever they are saying and just follow the sensations in the body for a while? Explore what is actually here. This can be in response to this phrase or just sitting with no phrase.

There is a big difference between the conceptual and the experiential :)

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

So, what color are your socks? Or shirt if over there in Hawaii you don’t need socks…

And then, what sensations are currently present in the body?

[Porky]

Yes, Looking is the only way to be sure!
Currently, I have no socks on, but my shirt is black (I looked)
The five senses are alive, smell, see, taste, hear and sensation or feeling
Ignoring the thoughts happens when I concentrate on that, but only lasts
for a short time. And yes, my biggest interest is being in the moment, present
with no thoughts. It appears to take a lot of practice! Maybe some get it quickly
yet mine seems to come and go.

[graceabounds]

OK so you can’t control thoughts, or pick and choose them, or predict them… so what makes you think you can stop them? :)

Direct or Actual Experience is:
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Thoughts passing is here, in experience. Presence doesn’t exclude thought. Presence is whatever is here: sound, sight, sensation… and thought. None of them push you away from the moment unless you buy the story “this one shouldn’t be here.”

For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: 
 Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all color. 
 Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them. 
 And notice that you're not making them happen. 
 You're not
conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of. 
 And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience. 
 You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.


So instead of stopping them or ignoring thoughts, lets turn in a different direction:

A thought arises: “I want to be in the moment,” or “I shouldn’t be thinking.”
It feels like it sticks to someone. But stop there! where is that someone??

Where exactly does that thought land?
Does it land on a self somewhere? Can you find a “me” it belongs to?

[Porky]

Hi Becca,

OK so you can’t control thoughts, or pick and choose them, or predict them… so what makes you think you can stop them? :)

You are correct! I cannot control thoughts, and maybe it would be better to be able to watch them vs judging/labelling them. When I hear them in my head it would be nice to just let them be and not attempt to shut them up!

I can only have thoughts in the moment, it doesn't matter whether they are about the past, present or future, the thoughts are always NOW!
Does age matter? I'm 72 with a lot of past and future.

Where exactly does that thought land?
Does it land on a self somewhere? Can you find a “me” it belongs to?

That thought seems to roll around in my head and then is replaced by another thought, unless I consciously say to myself stop!! Or repeat verbally or mentally OHM. That stops the thought process temporarily!
I'm looking to see where that thought lands and I'm not sure where it goes. If it doesn't come from me and my brain/mind, then where does it come from? Childhood programming? Conceptually, I can accept the NO I/Me. What I experience is uncertainty and numbness. When I explore the numbness, it's as if my mind goes blank.
When I repeat the phrase: There is no self and there never was one, again no mental response! It's as if there's something blocking me from experiencing the truth or is the nothing the true reality?! It can get very frustrating! Deep down I know it is only a matter of time before this ego identification "Let's go". Yet at times my patience grows thin as the inklings I see of truth and consciousness are fleeting and rare!
Thanks, Porky

[graceabounds]

Hello Porky,

When I hear them in my head it would be nice to just let them be and not attempt to shut them up!

Great, like hearing a bird sing—you don’t argue with it, you just notice: sound. Same here: thought.

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for a while.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.
Give it some time…
Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

Does age matter?

Haha, does it? Outside of a story? To whom? :)
Look now: apart from thought, where is your 72 years?
(If you like, we can explore time in more depth once there is more of a foundation laid here.)

What I experience is uncertainty and numbness. When I explore the numbness, it's as if my mind goes blank.
When I repeat the phrase: There is no self and there never was one, again no mental response! It's as if there's something blocking me from experiencing the truth or is the nothing the true reality?! It can get very frustrating!

Perfect!

Thought wants fireworks: bliss, clarity, confirmation. But when you look what shows up? Nothing. No “me.” Just raw aliveness and thought-clouds passing. The silence isn’t a block, it’s the absence of anyone there! (Yes it is actually this simple.)

So next time that blankness comes, don’t treat it as failure. Stay there. Feel it fully. Ask: “Is anything missing, right now?”

When you sit in that numb/blank nothing without labeling it “wrong,” what happens?

-Becca

[Porky]

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

It was easy to just see, smell, sensation (feeling cool or hot), taste, sound (listen) without labelling. When I get to thought it is difficult to stop or watch thinking. I'm not trying to stop but thoughts just keep popping up without me doing anything! Every time this happens now, I get a sick feeling in my stomach, kind of gnawing. When I ask it what are you doing? It stops momentarily, until another thought comes along. It is obvious to me that I am not responsible for the thinking. It just happens. Now it has affected my sleep.

Haha, does it? Outside of a story? To whom? :)
Look now: apart from thought, where is your 72 years?

My thoughts are of past experiences mostly. 72 years of it! That's a lot of programming to let go of! Not saying it can't be done. Age only matters because I feel limited to how much time I have left in this body. It is not that I fear death. It's more like I want to evolve as much as possible while in this body.

So next time that blankness comes, don’t treat it as failure. Stay there. Feel it fully. Ask: “Is anything missing, right now?”

When you sit in that numb/blank nothing without labeling it “wrong,” what happens?

Felt the blankness this morning again. Nothing seemed to be missing except thoughts. As soon as the blankness wears off thinking begins again. No labels, yet when thoughts return so do the labels, and I catch my mind labelling everything again.
Thanks Porky