Stream Entry

[Nicholas]

Twice you've admitted that "I don't know"
Just sit with "I don't know" and tell me what is experienced?
Is there tension, is there a relaxing, is there a feeling of weight, is there a willingness to just let things be?

I had to make a little "process" for this, that works like so:
"I don't know how to answer without mind. ok, will answer using the mind 'where am I' and the answer is simple, comes fast 'here, I am here' pointing the whole body, the mind, whatever. now without the mind..." -> that generates the feeling.

so...

what is experienced with "not knowing" is... just a puzzled, "I don't understand" feeling.
an "I don't know what to do". paralysis.

Really allow this "I don't know" FEELING to pervade.
Right in this moment does it matter if you truly don't know?

yes, it does matter. I can't progress.

Is there any less of you? Is there any more of you?

that doesn't change me

Are you diminished in any way?

no, just frustrated

Do the senses change at all or are they just as they always have been?

nothing changes

Without any other thought is there turmoil, is there stillness?

there's extreme turmoil from thoughts, stillness in senses

Is there anything controlling all of this?

all of... what exactly?

Can "I don't know" be anything other than the truth?

so the answer is around here, I just have to ask the question and wait? not paying attention to thoughts? is that the mechanism?
waiting for... the truth to reveal itself?

(asking seriously, if you know what I mean)

hug

[Alless]

what is experienced with "not knowing" is... just a puzzled, "I don't understand" feeling.
an "I don't know what to do". paralysis.

Your mind is in overdrive trying to find an answer. The "I don't understand" feeling and "I don't know what to do". paralysis is what is happening. Are you choosing it or is it just happening? If you are choosing it then you will be able to stop it and start it at will. Admit the truth - that it is just happening. Just let it be and WATCH IT ALL.

all of... what exactly?

All of what is being experienced.
Is it not just all happening - including the desperate trying to figure it out?
You aren't deciding to be frustrated are you? You're not choosing paralysis are you?



Can you fully feel "I don't know what to do" IN THIS MOMENT and let it be?



"I don't know what to do" is a thought right? What is driving that feeling / thought? Is it not that you BELIEVE you should know what to do or you have to know what to do to get out of this dilemma?
If it's not that sort of belief, what thoughts (beliefs) are underpinning this "I don't know what to do" feeling?




What are you actually holding on to here that is causing this suffering? What are you listening to that you are believing?




(I'll give you a hint - what you are hanging on to is a word that begins with "t". And what you are listening to is a word that beings with "w". It's thoughts which are words that you are listening to (the voice in the head) THAT ARE CAUSING ALL THE PROBLEM)

so the answer is around here, I just have to ask the question and wait? not paying attention to thoughts? is that the mechanism?
waiting for... the truth to reveal itself?

The truth is right in front of you. It's never waiting to be revealed. You are just not accepting what you SEE without thinking about it, You are looking at what the truth is not - you are looking at thoughts to give you the answer and YOU WILL NEVER FIND THE ANSWER IN THOUGHT.
Just look at what thoughts are doing to you.
WATCH THEM and Tell me .....what is it about your "relationship" with thoughts and thinking that is causing all the turmoil?



Hugs



Alan

[Nicholas]

all of... what exactly?

All of what is being experienced.
Is it not just all happening - including the desperate trying to figure it out?
You aren't deciding to be frustrated are you? You're not choosing paralysis are you?

mmh, ok... if I had to choose it would be to not be frustrated, or paralyzed. I would choose to be happy all the time. or at peace.

Can you fully feel "I don't know what to do" IN THIS MOMENT and let it be?

ooooh... ok. interesting. if I ask myself "where is Mariano, answer without using thought, without using the mind!" I'm still... waiting for a non-verbal answer... FOR THE MIND TO RECEIVE.
I don't know how to let it be, because if I let it be then I forget about it. or end up thinking other stuff.

"I don't know what to do" is a thought right? What is driving that feeling / thought? Is it not that you BELIEVE you should know what to do or you have to know what to do to get out of this dilemma?
If it's not that sort of belief, what thoughts (beliefs) are underpinning this "I don't know what to do" feeling?

no, I don't believe that I should know. I'm wondering instead how to "watch without the mind" to be honest.

What are you actually holding on to here that is causing this suffering? What are you listening to that you are believing?

oh ok, interesting. then maybe I can have a "loud mind" but still don't care about it, or well, not suffer because of it?
so also I have this belief that suddenly having a silent mind would be more peaceful?

but neither is... true. I can force silence in my mind. great, now there's no thoughts. but I'm still disconnected from everything... and suffering.

(I'll give you a hint - what you are hanging on to is a word that begins with "t". And what you are listening to is a word that beings with "w". It's thoughts which are words that you are listening to (the voice in the head) THAT ARE CAUSING ALL THE PROBLEM)

I agree, I sincerely agree. specially the part about believing all the stuff that happens in the mind. but that doesn't mean I can just zone out and stop listening and believing to thoughts.
t = thought?
w = word?

so the answer is around here, I just have to ask the question and wait? not paying attention to thoughts? is that the mechanism?
waiting for... the truth to reveal itself?

The truth is right in front of you. It's never waiting to be revealed. You are just not accepting what you SEE without thinking about it, You are looking at what the truth is not - you are looking at thoughts to give you the answer and YOU WILL NEVER FIND THE ANSWER IN THOUGHT.
Just look at what thoughts are doing to you.
WATCH THEM and Tell me .....what is it about your "relationship" with thoughts and thinking that is causing all the turmoil?

you tell me "the truth is right in front of you". and I look in front of me and I only see... stuff (my hands, the computer, the wall..)
is that the truth?

(not trying to be a smartass or rude here, I'm trying to be as basic and primitive as possible with what we are talking about to see if I can see where I'm going wrong)

How do I accept what I see? are we talking about stuff I see or all senses?

Yes, I'm aware I'm still looking at thoughts (even non-verbal thoughts!) to give me the answer. so, the question is: how do I find the answer without using thought?

what about the constant music in my head. what should I do with that? should it be considered as a thought?

or should I only observe the "monologue kind" thoughts?

when I watch my thoughts it seems I'm constantly trying to find something, to solve a problem, but I don't know what that is and I don't know what problem I'm trying to solve. it feels tense, like it's waiting for something. like there's something missing. it's constantly on edge. "there's something wrong"... ok but what? and the mind never stops. it must solve... something. but I don't know what that is. and it's been going like that for... who knows how long.

hug

[Alless]

I'm still...waiting for a non-verbal answer... FOR THE MIND TO RECEIVE.

You don't have to wait for the answer, there is only ever a "non-verbal" and non-mental answer which the mind cannot comprehend. It is right there now waiting to be recognized,The mind only recognizes images and words. Once the truth is seen words are used to try and describe what is experienced but it always feels inadequate. Just as it is inadequate to try and describe a unique delicious fruit to someone who has never tasted it. But it is so much easier (although impossible) to do that than describe the truth.

oh ok, interesting. then maybe I can have a "loud mind" but still don't care about it, or well, not suffer because of it?
so also I have this belief that suddenly having a silent mind would be more peaceful?

Having a "loud mind" does not mean that silence is not there. It can obscure it but not affect it in any way. A loud mind is like dark clouds covering the sky.
Do clouds seem to obscure the sky?




Do clouds remove the sky?




What are clouds made of? Aren't they just the sky in a form we call "clouds"?




Where does the sky start and end in you experience?



Just because you are inside a house does the sky end at the door?




Can the sky be actually described?




Is the sky real or is the word sky a concept or a label of "something" that is uniquely experienced by each one of us?

t = thought?
w = word?

Yes !

you tell me "the truth is right in front of you". and I look in front of me and I only see... stuff (my hands, the computer, the wall..)
is that the truth?

What you are experiencing directly is right in front of you. What you are saying you see - your hands, the computer is a thought ABOUT what you are seeing.
If you don't take any notice of the label you put on them what do you experience?

(not trying to be a smartass or rude here, I'm trying to be as basic and primitive as possible with what we are talking about to see if I can see where I'm going wrong)

I absolutely know you are not trying to be a smartass or rude here. Similarly I am not trying to be confusing and frustrating. This seems so bamboozling. What we are trying to invoke here is for you to recognize experiencing what is here IN SPITE of what the mind is telling you

when I watch my thoughts it seems I'm constantly trying to find something, to solve a problem, but I don't know what that is and I don't know what problem I'm trying to solve. it feels tense, like it's waiting for something. like there's something missing. it's constantly on edge. "there's something wrong"... ok but what? and the mind never stops. it must solve... something. but I don't know what that is. and it's been going like that for... who knows how long.

You say you are watching thoughts. Yes you are watching thoughts and and by what you say something else is happening that is not recognized. Consider this.

When you go to the movies you say you go to watch a movie. However even thought we say we are watching much more than watching typically happens. What usually happens especially if you are engrossed in a movie is that the movie captivates you so much that in that moment you believe that what you're seeing is real. Emotional scenes actually trigger emotional reactions within us. That's what we imply when we say we are watching a movie.

However. If we are really just watching a movie we see it as colors moving on the screen without believing what is happening on the screen to be true and emotionally impacted by it, that is a different experience of watching is it not?

Or another way of looking at it is if we are really just watching a movie that we are totally disinterested in we may be aware of the characters and the plot but it has no effect on us whatsoever.

It is the same with thoughts and thinking. When you are asked to watch thoughts the hint that we are doing more than simply watching is when we find ourselves absorbed and believing the thoughts to be true. So much so that we are convinced they are reality.

So can you simply watch your thoughts as colors on a screen Or a disinterested observer and not be affected by them? Even for a a second or two? What happens when you try that?




Can you see "the moment" when the experience of thought changes from just watching to the thought captivating you - believing it to be true?


Hugs

Alan

[Nicholas]

oh ok, interesting. then maybe I can have a "loud mind" but still don't care about it, or well, not suffer because of it?
so also I have this belief that suddenly having a silent mind would be more peaceful?

Having a "loud mind" does not mean that silence is not there. It can obscure it but not affect it in any way. A loud mind is like dark clouds covering the sky.
Do clouds seem to obscure the sky?

yes

Do clouds remove the sky?

no, but from my point of view it's SO cloudy that I never seen the sky before, so for me it doesn't exist.
but ok. no, clouds don't remove the sky.

What are clouds made of? Aren't they just the sky in a form we call "clouds"?

so they are part of the sky?

Where does the sky start and end in you experience?

it's infinite

Just because you are inside a house does the sky end at the door?

no

Can the sky be actually described?

it's... vast, blue/black. sometimes other colors. even... beautiful?

Is the sky real or is the word sky a concept or a label of "something" that is uniquely experienced by each one of us?

wait a second. yes, the sky is real.
but also the word "sky" is a concept of something up there.

you tell me "the truth is right in front of you". and I look in front of me and I only see... stuff (my hands, the computer, the wall..)
is that the truth?

What you are experiencing directly is right in front of you. What you are saying you see - your hands, the computer is a thought ABOUT what you are seeing.
If you don't take any notice of the label you put on them what do you experience?

it's like... I don't have to believe in what I see?
or well, don't have to believe what the mind says I see?

in that case...

I see things! no wait, that's also a label...
I see stuff! no, a label again...
eeeh...

I just... see?

So can you simply watch your thoughts as colors on a screen Or a disinterested observer and not be affected by them? Even for a a second or two? What happens when you try that?

ooooooh... okay...
so, I did it for a couple minutes...

what helps me is to place myself in the body and look at the mind with skepticism and start making faces and gestures. that allows me to "react" with the body instead of using thoughts (which would only feed the same machine and keep me trapped). some scenes are easy to see, some thoughts too, but THEN... monologue. oh my god, what a trickster! it's saying what's happening in real time! that's not fair!
but basically what happens is that it loses some of its... power?

Can you see "the moment" when the experience of thought changes from just watching to the thought captivating you - believing it to be true?

yeah, when I stop observing, basically. when I stop paying attention.

hug

[Nicholas]

ah crap, you broke me Alan! now every thought seems fake! 😅

[Alless]

ah crap, you broke me Alan! now every thought seems fake! 😅

Aaaaah haa !!! What does it really feel like to be broke ??



big hug


Alan

[Nicholas]

ah crap, you broke me Alan! now every thought seems fake! 😅

Aaaaah haa !!! What does it really feel like to be broke ??

okay let's see. last night I started watching thoughts and... yep, I could see it. I'm not creating any of them, they happen on their own. music, monologue, reaction to stuff. it just arises.

the funny thing is... the monologue, how it reacts to EVERYTHING around me, and I'm like "this is not even necesary" because it also has a delay of one second. I feel hunger then "oh, I'm hungry" and I'm like "....yeah d'oh" haha.

so while I was washing plates, showering, and then going to sleep I was just watching how thoughts arise and laughing because it's all so... funny haha.

and I felt lighter too.

then I woke up and "lost it" or got out of that... "state"?

and well, got swept up in them again.

so I sit down again... and start trying to watch over again. but agh, it's 17.30 and for some reason I'm super sleepy. so I have trouble concentrating. going to take a walk...

trying again but...

can't. how is this possible? yesterday I was able to not believe any of them, to see them arise on their own.
today that's gone, I believe them as always, they have the same effect on me and they don't seem to "just arise".

hug

[Alless]

can't. how is this possible? yesterday I was able to not believe any of them, to see them arise on their own.
today that's gone, I believe them as always, they have the same effect on me and they don't seem to "just arise".

This is not a surprise Nicholas.

Here is someone that can articulate this so well. You are not alone in this "got it, lost it" quandary

Lisa might not have the same precise identical experience however it's the same oscillation - the "got it, lost it" torture. Let's see if this resonates

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4

Does this resonate?




And remember this ......
So can you simply watch your thoughts as colors on a screen Or a disinterested observer and not be affected by them? Even for a a second or two?
What happens when you try that again?




Hugs



Alan

[Nicholas]

Does this resonate?

yep. would not say I was awake though. Just... seeing one of the illusions clearly. not bad though!

So can you simply watch your thoughts as colors on a screen Or a disinterested observer and not be affected by them? Even for a a second or two?
What happens when you try that again?

what helps apparently is to look in front of me. what am I seeing? "computer, scarf, keyboard". but those are labels. "objects, stuff!" labels again.
so I focus on just seeing things as a whole, finally I just "see", regardless of objects and stuff.

then I watch the mind, but not disinterested. interested but with skepticism "let's see what's in here, in this box", that seems to do the trick.

and yes, I start seeing it. how the narrator acts 1 second later after some stimulus (hunger -> "i'm hungry", cold -> "oh I'm cold") it becomes so obvious.

let me go eat and see if I can still observe and let's see what happens.

yes, but it takes effort. I feel very heavy today.

but I can do it for several minutes, not just a couple seconds. and I can REALLY look at how they just arise and are... separate from... "me" or whatever I am.

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas

I feel what you are experiencing. There can be an expectation that this all should happen in a flash. Sometimes that expectation comes from relating to someone's experience where they tell of a "seismic" type experience. However there is an infinite range of experience here. And everyone is unique. I think of one young man who after going much looking realized that things were actually different to 12 months prior. No big flash of realization, no moment of dramatic transformation. But something was different. He just let that be and over time found that his life had forever changed.

The sages would attest to the same. You may have heard of Nisargadatta Maharaj a revered Indian master

In his dialogues, especially as recorded in the book "I Am That," Nisargadatta Maharaj often emphasized that while one’s true nature is effortless being, people at first need to make an effort to turn their attention inward and disentangle themselves from habitual identification with the body-mind.

Here are some examples of his statements on this topic:

“In the beginning effort is needed, but as you grow, effort becomes impossible. The very idea of achieving a goal leaves you; there is nothing to achieve. Whatever there is to be done, you do it unselfconsciously, naturally, spontaneously, without addressing your mind to it.”

“Effort is required until effortless realization becomes established. Effort and no-effort are not contradictory, both belong to the mind. In reality all effort is the going away from the Self (for it is already effortless), but until this is realized, some effort in practice is inevitable.”

In your situation the "shell has been cracked" Now is the time to let that which has been glimpses reveal itself more and more.

Trust and patience is the key.

How do we "do" that?

Do what you were doing yesterday .....again.So can you simply watch your thoughts as colors on a screen Or a disinterested observer and not be affected by them? Even for a a second or two?
What happens when you try that again?




Let's just keep working at this together. We'll change things up as we go along and just let everything be.

Trust and patience is the key.

Hugs


Alan

[Nicholas]

Do what you were doing yesterday .....again.So can you simply watch your thoughts as colors on a screen Or a disinterested observer and not be affected by them? Even for a a second or two?
What happens when you try that again?

yes sir, I can do this for 2hs non-stop but then I need to rest a bit. I can watch each and every thought. I don't get involved. It's pretty obvious they just come and go on their own. The monologue is so damn... obvious! it reacts one second later after something happens. Sometimes I get pulled into chains but only for a couple seconds and then I "wake up" and smile hehe.

it's pretty interesting, I can really watch them and NOT REACT to any of them. there's monologue, a couple chains, music, all kinds of stuff.

It's also interesting how I'm not... trying to control or do anything with them. I'm not shutting them down and I'm not feeding them.

It's nice not believing them. images are a bit tougher, but they too are losing the little power they have.

hug

[Alless]

It's also interesting how I'm not... trying to control or do anything with them. I'm not shutting them down and I'm not feeding them.

It's nice not believing them. images are a bit tougher, but they too are losing the little power they have.

What are you feeling as this is experienced? Be as explicit as you can - tell me about tension, heaviness, lightness, relief, contractions, relaxation and the like?




As you look back at the times you are going about the rest of the day when you are not consciously watching thoughts - what is happening?




Hugs


Alan

[Nicholas]

What are you feeling as this is experienced? Be as explicit as you can - tell me about tension, heaviness, lightness, relief, contractions, relaxation and the like?

if I manage to CLEARLY see how every thought just arises on its own, I feel 10% lighter/connected with life.
if I don't see fully clear... then it's 5% or less.

As you look back at the times you are going about the rest of the day when you are not consciously watching thoughts - what is happening?

more suffering and heaviness.

for example today... I can't do it, don't know why. it's like I forget how to do it.

hug

[Alless]

I can't do it, don't know why

Here is the paradox in all this Nicholas.
When you're trying to "do it" the "trying to do it" is getting in the way.

I know this can sound crazy however when you catch a glimpse of this "non-doing" (which ironically you already have ) you'll know it.

Another way of looking at this is rather than trying to "do it" - watch what thoughts are doing TO YOU.
Just look. And in that SEEING as you look you will see what is happening.

And remember this seeing is always always (that is not a mistake in saying always always ) It is never a doing. It just is.

And it is when we are coming from that place that the recognition becomes obvious.

Frustrating? Yes. And the frustration is also part of what is veiling the recognition.

So just let things be.

Can you see what thoughts are doing to you? Even one thought?




As you are reading this have you even recognized the white on which the words appear or are you fixed on the words themselves? Or have you been so concentrating (doing) on the words (thoughts) that white was not noticed until it was pointed out?




What happens when you let your eyes gently rest on the white and let your attention be absorbed in it and just let thoughts float by?





Similarly just let your attention rest on the "space" between thoughts - just let it be seen, let it be genuinely noticed in the most relaxed way. And just rest there.
Is there any doing in this?




Hugs


Alan