Want to SEE through the illusion of Self

[Anastacia42]

That's okay. When you feel better is fine.

Get well!

Loving

[Jonathan785]

Thanks for your patience, Stacy. Feeling better today.

This exercise has been profound. It changed something in my perspective regarding the absolute solidity of the body. I still feel the solidity but not with the absolute certainty I used to have.

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

- No form, shape, height, volume, or weight. Those are only mental concepts or words that describe the actual experience in low fidelity.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

- No. There is only sensations. While the border feels real, maybe bunch of sensations along the “lines” of the skin, I can see it’s just my mind’s habit of enforcing the visual or the concept of the border. So this still feels real after 45 mins of the exercise, but I intellectually get the illusion and can’t point to a real line in actual experience. I also think I felt some sensations are in my clothing (that’s not part of my body).

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

- Hard to say exactly. I feel there’s an area that has so many sensations (body organs sensations are felt, air “around” has no sensations) and an area that doesn’t. More like a cloud. Can’t tell if it’s a definite area — probably bec the illusion of the skin as a border still fairly exists, so it makes “inside” and “outside” feel real.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

- The label ‘body’ feels like a pointer to an area of dense felt sensations in the middle of a larger space where sensations are absent
- Actual experience of the body is just sensations of pressure, tingling, temperature, and pulses.

=====

A strong doubt that kept surfacing while doing the exercise is: isn’t suppressing a sense like vision (eyes closed) more of a hindrance to SEE more? What if the border of the body can only be SEEN but not FELT, like other direct experiences (apple’s color)? I think I’m afraid I’m cherry-picking what to see to arrive at a certain result and convince myself it’s The Truth. This is causing me to doubt the whole experience. I’m sure that’s not what “you” are intending by giving “me” this exercise/pointer, but I think it may help if I’m honest about my full experience with you in case that is a hindrance that is standing in the way.

[Anastacia42]

Glad you're feeling better.

A couple of things.

it makes “inside” and “outside” feel real.

Feel "real?"
Is "real" a Direct Experience? or only the content of thought?
All of your doubts & proofs are merely thought aren't they?

Closing your eyes makes it clearer what is just content of thought & what is DE.

Not feel the body? That's kind of silly, isn't it?



You can argue all you wish. You're simply wrong.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/res ... ar-seeker/

Let go.

Loving

[Jonathan785]

Feel "real?"
Is "real" a Direct Experience? or only the content of thought?
All of your doubts & proofs are merely thought aren't they?

Yes you’re correct. It’s just thoughts.

Not feel the body? That's kind of silly, isn't it?

It is. But doesn’t the body exist though, as a matter of direct experience (it can be seen)? I’m not sure why I’m not getting it. I appreciate your patience with me.

[Jonathan785]

If you’re talking about the earlier statement about the border of the body being seen but not felt, I think what I wanted to convey, but didn’t, is that the border does exist in direct experience. It can be seen. It can be felt through a different exercise (e.g. if I touch my whole skin with my hands).

[Anastacia42]

Yes. Let's move to another pointer :


Deeper Body Investigation

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Loving

[Jonathan785]

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

No connection. Only thoughts.

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

No. The mirror has no sensations, only image of movement.

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

In the beginning it felt as if there’s a connection. But watching closely it was just thoughts connecting the sensations of the movement to the image of movement.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

The image by itself doesn’t suggest anything. It just is color and shapes. Meaning whether it’s the body or a me is content of thoughts.

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Only thoughts and mental images suggest there a leg.

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

No body. Only sensations.

(8) Start to walk slowly. Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

No body. Only sensations.

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all? Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

No. There only sensations. “Walking” is an activity/meaning that’s merely content of thought.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

- If I’m not looking at the body, there’s only thoughts about it.

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

No. It’s content of thoughts.

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

All locations are only content of thoughts as well.

[Anastacia42]

Okay.

ButtChair

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?


It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just LOOK.

Then write what is true.

I did only this and nothing else for 3 months and then saw. It crept up on me while I was sitting at a stoplight. Seeing often happens when we are simply relaxed and looking. I should say, it ONLY happens when we are relaxed and LOOKING. Thinking is useless for doing no self.

Loving,

[Jonathan785]

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just LOOK.

Then write what is true.

There’s only sensations of pressure and tingling around the contact area. The pressure extends over an area or a square that makes the illusion of a clear division exists, but this is thought content. I have a heavy impulse towards interpreting that continuous area of pressure as a separation border but each time I think that I realize it’s thought content.

I did this exercise in front of a mirror unintentionally and can see there’s a contact line, then I realized it’s a label for that contact area. Maybe the contact area exists but can’t be felt but can be seen? This is the same issue I had with the apple and body exercises. I feel that not using some sense is intentionally not looking at what is, so it feels self deception. Why only try to feel the line (it can’t be felt) but not look at it (it can’t be seen, not the label “line” but what it points to)

Any idea why am I stuck here?

I did only this and nothing else for 3 months and then saw. It crept up on me while I was sitting at a stoplight. Seeing often happens when we are simply relaxed and looking. I should say, it ONLY happens when we are relaxed and LOOKING. Thinking is useless for doing no self.

While reading this last sentence “Thinking is useless for doing no self,” a question came to mind which is: “But some thoughts are true” then I saw that other thoughts are not, and it’s impossible to find what’s true or not with 100% certainty using thoughts because not all thoughts are true. So truth must be found via something more primitive, which is Direct Experience (the senses not the concept of direct experience). I know this is more thought, but I now SEE the futility of thinking. I can’t fully trust it. That I can see. What I still can’t see is why hide some tools of direct experience to arrive at a truth.

[Anastacia42]

Any idea why am I stuck here?

Yes. Because you are stuck in believing your thoughts.

But try it. Sit there with eyes open looking directly at where butt meets chair - or if that is hard to see, put your hand on a table and do the same exercise. It works the same way.

Hand on Desk

Please close your eyes for this exercise, just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear and put them aside.

Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.

Now 'go to' the Sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – AE of sensation.

2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and Sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?

Can a ‘feeler’ ever be found in 'what is being felt' – AE sensation?

If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be other than a concept/idea/thought?


You can try this with your eyes open. If you can let go of the "separate hand" story, it can be very interesting.

No. Thoughts. Are. True.

The minute you use a word, a label, you are removed from the thing itself and it is no longer "true."

Loving,

[Jonathan785]

Thank you very much Stacy for all your effort and time you’re spending with me. Another insightful exercise.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – AE of sensation.

One thing: sensation.

2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

One thing: sensation.

3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

Only sensation.

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and Sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?

Just a sensation.

Can a ‘feeler’ ever be found in 'what is being felt' – AE sensation?

No. Only sensation.

If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be other than a concept/idea/thought?

Yes, no inherent feeler. Feeler is a concept or thought.

I started to see how much of the separation can’t be felt in direct experience. It’s still in the intellectual realm though.

[Anastacia42]

I started to see how much of the separation can’t be felt in direct experience. It’s still in the intellectual realm though.

That's okay. That is the first step.

Start on these. Be sure to listen to the Introduction first.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ksba3zhi9uu ... hsk1a?dl=0

Loving,

[Jonathan785]

Thank you a lot Stacy for sharing these pointers. I can’t thank you enough for your help.

[Anastacia42]

You are quite welcome!

Keep posting.

Loving,

[Jonathan785]

So far I’ve done the a couple of meditations and the first one resonates a lot (God is all that is.)
We’ll keep you posted with my progress.