There is no spoon

[Lenila]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
From what I have learnt this points to the realization that the person I usually take myself to be—this separate “me” with a story, a past, and a future—is just a bundle of thoughts and perceptions. When I look closely, I don’t find a solid, unchanging self at the center of experience.

What are you looking for at LU?
I know, it is not an I that can gain spiritual awakening, yet this is all that i am drawn to at the moment. Maybe with every book that I'm reading about awakening, with a lot of sitting in stillness, asking myself "who am I", with doing inquiry and trying to deidentify with thoughts, I can develop the circumstances for self realization to occur. So here I am looking for someone to help me on that path, and help the process of awakening.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Direct pointings to unfiltered reality, making out the blind spots that still keep "me" indentified to "my" thoughts and the ego, finding community to go through the process of self realization together as it gets more and more destabilizing an irritating when I really question anything,

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have read several books on spiritual awakening, enlightenment, self realization and following their guindings, I am practizing zen in a zen centre weekliy, but in general Iam constantly trying to stay present all the time, I will attend a non-dual retreat this summer, I meditate more than an hour daily, I attend Pernille Damores Awakening Curriculum, I had meetings with a non dual Coach, which git too expensive for me though,

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Anastacia42]

Good morning

Did someone at a nondual retreat just mention Liberation Unleashed to everybody? We've had about 5 applications in the last 30 minutes.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Would you still like to be guided here?

[Lenila]

Hello,

sorry for my late reply. So I am now just reading Ilonas "Liberation unleashed" and actually wanted to contact you once I am through the book. I am now at 80% and I think I am ready though to start with a guide.
Just for you to know, "I" am also joining Vince Schuberts group calls 2x a week and am also active in a Zen centre in Austria, where Koans are used to help with the Awakening. "I" am currently more than committed, all "my" time now goes into the awakening process. 3 weeks ago I also had an experience for 2 days, where there was a direct seeing of the selfing mechanism, an understanding that the self is created by thoughts and especially by those thoughts that imply a wanting for awakening. Since then "I" am not seeking in that sense anymore, just being and trying to not get cought in thoughts anymore. This has been hard as there are a lot of very unfiltered emotions rushing to the surface, accompanied by very hurtful thoughts that are always recognized as thoughts a bit too late, when they already created a "me" again.
So this is a very confusing, lonely and emotional phase. But now that the roughest days, when all "I" could do was crying are over, there is a sense of readiness to work with a guide. Hopefully this is not too late of a response but again, "I" tried to come prepared with at least having read one of the two suggested books.
best regards
Magdalena (preferably called Leni)

[Anastacia42]

Hi Leni

Not too late.

Please answer the 4 questions in blue in the previous post. using the Quote Function according to the video in the previous post & we'll get started.

All of the things you're doing sound fine and most of them follow a similar model to ours except for the Zen koans, which are no problem.

Loving,

[Lenila]

How will life change?

I love that we’re starting with expectations, because I can see how they’re often what stand in the way of seeing things as they are—and instead, one only sees what one wants to see. That’s the best way to not see at all.

To begin with, there’s the general expectation or hope that this exploration will trigger an awakening, which might probably take weeks or months, hopefully not years. I admit, even though I now understand that awakening doesn’t lead to eternal bliss and happiness, there’s still this persistent hope that it will bring about a general lightness and ease that lasts for longer stretches. That a new love and acceptance for life will arise—for everything that happens, as it is. Even for uncomfortable emotions like fear, despair, envy, or restlessness.

Pain (physical or mental) would no longer be perceived as “my pain,” and wouldn’t feel so personal or heavy anymore. The hope is that pain won’t cling so much, and that the thoughts it triggers will be immediately seen as only thoughts, and therefore won’t cause additional suffering. Then pain could be just pain.
I even secretly hope that at some point, pain will become no more significant than, let's say, the sound of a bird—because both are then seen simply as equivalent phenomena in the field of consciousness. That would bring a certain freedom from personal suffering, even though I know pain and suffering would still be there.

There’s also a hope that a kind of aliveness will be felt in all sensations—seeing, feeling, smelling. That once the “I” falls away, some kind of life energy, radiance or fascination will return—something I once had as a child but which currently feels inaccessible.
In Ilona’s book, one of her inquiry partners talked about how, after awakening, he often felt happy without any particular reason. It’s his default mode. That sounds beautiful, I admit.

Another point: stories about “Leni” (which I now increasingly recognize as selfing) would be noticed right as they arise—not only once they’ve already hijacked all attention and created a “me” that then has to be peeled off again. The labels would be seen immediately, before they take effect.
A big hope here is also that over time, fewer and fewer stories about “Leni” will arise, because they simply no longer attract the same amount of attention as before.

Another expectation is that a nondual perception would bring with it a feeling of connection with everything that is. That the sense of being a lonely subject in a world full of objects would fall away. One would just be part of the great flow of life and that occasional "loneliness" would either fall away entirely or at least seen through as just a thought.

And finally, to be completely honest with my funkiest hope: that time and space will truly be seen through as illusions. Even if I won’t constantly be in a state of timelessness and spacelessness, there is still a hope that, at least once, there will be an experiential (not just conceptual) understanding that both do not actually exist in the way I currently assume and perceive them.

How will you change?

I now know from my own brief (two-day-long) experience that there is no “self” that could actually change. And there never will be. Its only a story. But still, there is the expectation that what currently still feels like a self would no longer weigh so heavily. Maybe this underlying sense of heaviness would dissolve.

Even though I was, for a short time, able to directly observe the selfing mechanism (and even felt amused, even touched by it), it now still feels like “Leni” is here. She’s somehow assumed as the default mode. Especially in the morning when I wake up, I have to peel off this sense of self with effort, and thoughts are always believed at first—until I can see them as just thoughts.

Sometimes I even wonder whether the phrase “it’s just a thought” has become just another belief, rather than something I truly see through—especially because the feeling that relates to the thought often feels more real than the thought “this is just a thought.” And these negative feelings often cling for hours.

So what would change about “me” is that eventually, there would no longer be a fight against thoughts or stories about Leni. That’s exactly how it feels now: like a battle. Even when I try to welcome thoughts and thank them, it still feels like these thoughts poison the here and now.

So if my relationship to these thoughts were to change—if it were no longer a battle but a peaceful recognition—then I believe “I” would eventually be nothing but an awareness of everything happening around me. A small fragment of the field of consciousness that simply is and no longer needs to become anything, there would be no longer clinging to that sad, lonely character called Leni.

Also there would no longer be a distinction between “inside” and “outside.” I guess other people would perceive “me” as more relaxed, more open, lighter and more joyful over longer stretches. But that wouldn’t be “Leni” anymore. That would be the nature of consciousness, to which nothing is really a problem. And this would radiate through this mind-body complex I guess.
Even though negative emotions would still arise and be experienced through this field of awareness, they would never cling for long or trigger endless thought-emotion loops again. So the mind-body complex could just freely express in authenticity what it wants to express at the moment.

What will be different?

Nothing and Everything.
Life would go on as before, but there would no longer be resistance to it. Everything could be accepted and even loved—because it could be seen as part of everything that exists, the big "I", Conciousness itself.
There would be a deep understanding for everything and everyone—and especially for one’s own programming, and that of others. The default mode would probably be more like contentment and compassion.

What is missing?

Right now, love for life is missing.
Especially now that it has become clearer that “meaning” doesn’t exist and never has. That should be freeing—but right now, the emptiness and meaninglessness feels more like the absence of life and aliveness, rather than an invitation to let everything be just as it is, without needing to mean anything.

If I were asked what’s missing, I’d say: joy, lightness, aliveness, and above all, the feeling of connection with everything.

What’s missing is the absence of resistance to feelings(especially loneliness), and sometimes the absence of resistance to what is perceived as the unfairness of life. And also the absence of struggle against thoughts.

Thank you so much for taking me under your wings as a guide. I am super curious and thankful to be working with you. I wish you a great day.
best Leni

[Anastacia42]

Wow. That's possibly the longest & most thorough answer I've ever received on those. It sounds like most of your expectations are fairly reasonable. Some of that will be true some of the time, but not all of it all of the time.

After this next question, I want shorter answers based in direct experience, which I will explain shortly.

Meanwhile, what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been. and never will be? That the whole thing is just made up?

Loving,

[Lenila]

Ok sorry, I didn't know what is expected or ok here, so I was just as honest as I could be. So yeah I try to be shorter with the next answer.

Meanwhile, what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been. and never will be? That the whole thing is just made up?

Every day, when this is read or heard in all the non dual stuff that I am reading there are different emotions/sensations coming up.
1)Sometimes like today, a burning sensation comes up with a label of frustration attached and the story: "why don't I feel this if everyone I trust in says so and even if i experienced it once?"
2)Sometimes there is a heavy sensation in my chest and behind the eyes with the label of sadness and the story: "So all the suffering was in vain, as were the attempts to build a self- loving relationship to this character."
3)Sometimes there is no story attached to the sadness, just a sadness of somehow killing Leni with that.
4)Sometimes the thought: I hope i will see this sometime in the future
5)Sometimes nothing nothing nothing happens.

Sorry this answer got very long again. but yeah if you want to know what came up in the moment now then the first line, number 1).

[Anastacia42]

Hi Lemi

You seem to be very self- aware & you think a lot.

Okay. first this:

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[Lenila]

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I am clear on this.

[Anastacia42]

Good, rhen practice here:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Lenila]

Dear Anastasia,

perfect, I will start doing that tomorrow if that is ok as today and yesterday I had family over and cant get to that task. I wish you a great sunday and thank you for the exercise!

[Anastacia42]

Sure. In your own time.

[Lenila]

Dear Anastasia,
so I was practizing labeling my experiences throughout the day like the list you have shown me. I have an example of some of my observations, but obviously there were so much more throughout the day, which I haven't written down: So here an example:

Sitting on couch , looking around, simply = image/color
Sitting in couch with eyes closed, simply= sensation
Petting the cat, simply = image/color, sensation
Looking out the window, simply= image/color
Thought about what needs to be done, simply= thought
Hearing the cat eat cat food out of bowl, simply= hearing
Hearing birds chirping, simply=hearing
Massaging upper arm, simply = sensation
Observing cat, simply= image/color
Feeling back pain, simply = sensation
Wanting pain to stop, simply = thought
Hearing neighbour kids playing with dog, simply = hearing
Going to toilet, simply= sensation, color/image
Peeing, simply= sensation, color/image
Thinking about exercise, simply = thought
Feeling bored, simply = thought
Thinking about awakening, simply = though
Reading boom titles in the library, simply = image/color
Writing on computer, simply = color/image, sensation
Feeling a light headache, simply = sensation
Walking to the coffee machine, simply = image/color, sensation
Waiting for coffee to be done, simply = hearing
Drinking the coffee, simply = tasting
Writing stuff for work, simply = image/color, sensation, sound, thought
Getting dressed to leave the house, simply = image/color, sensation
Brushing teeth, simply = sensation
Putting on make up = image/color, sensation
Talking on the phone, simply = hearing, thought
Putting on shoes, simply = image/color, sensation
Closing the door, simply = image/color, sensation
Walking down the stairs, simply = image/color, sensation, sound
Biking, simply = image/color, sensation, sound, thought
Locking the bike, simply = image/color, sensation, sound
Talking to course leader, simply = image/color, sound
Preparing mattress, pillow, blanket, simply = image/color, sensation
Listening to sound bath session = hearing
Talking to friend after session = hearing, color/image, thought
Biking home, simply = image/color, sensation, sound, thought
Feeding cat, simply = image/color, sensation
Cooking, simply = image/color, sensation, sound, thought
Easting dinner, simply= tasting, sensation
Putting dishes in dishwasher, simply = image/color, sensation
Typing on computer, simply = image/color, sensation

So if I understood you correctly, you also wanted me to report back to you. But I don't really know how much, or tbh what exactly. This task was actually not too hard and brought a sense of calm and simplicity (even though these are also just thought labels). It was noticed, that the task is much harder to fulfill, if there is contact with people and conversations. In these times there was buying into thought content rather than nticing that its just a thought.

[Anastacia42]

Those are all good.

Here's the next step;

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving