Subtle sense of I AM Remains

[rojitas839]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
No real, inherent self means no independent, unchanging, existing self found apart or in experience. There is just the appearances, the sights, the sounds, the scenery. Completely devoid of something experiencing it.

What are you looking for at LU?
To be fully liberated - I want to be free of the illusions that bind up my life and make me suffer. I can feel that I am so close to seeing through the last structures of the self, but I’ve been kind of stuck for a while, I think because there’s things I’m holding onto and I’m afraid of the full totality of having to experience everything without being able to escape it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To help me see where I’m holding on, fooling myself, and missing what’s right in front of me. I feel like there’s something very clear and obvious that I’m missing in my experience, and I need some help on seeing what that could be, or giving me maybe some other ways of looking or a clearer path forward that I can implement in my daily life.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’ve done a lot of Buddhist practices and inquiries about the nature of experience. I’ve done a lot of emotional work and therapy, and there’s probably still a good amount to go. I’ve meditated a lot and try to stay with my experience and observe it constantly.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi rojitas839
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[rojitas839]

Hi Rali,

Thanks so much in advance for your help, really appreciate it. I can confirm I’ve read the FAQ.

What time zone are in?

I’m in Eastern Daylight time. Looking forward to getting into it!

Best,
Pablo

[poppyseed]

Hi Pablo

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I’m in Eastern Daylight time.

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

Looking forward to getting into it!

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[rojitas839]

Hi Rali,

Got it, I’ve subscribed.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I’m not sure, when the subject-object split fell away, nothing really changed in my personality or in any way, just the illusion of distance, space, awareness separate from appearance, attention coming from one source emanating towards objects out there, all fell away. I guess there was a huge weight that felt like it lifted off my shoulders, but I don’t really know what will happen when that’s realized, and any thoughts I have about it are just that, thoughts.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

Like I was saying before, not sure.

3. What do you want not to happen?

What I’ve realized ever since my last shift is how deep my fear is of experiencing the totality of everything without any gap. I’ve realized I have a lot of avoidant tendencies, so there is a strong pull to avoid certain experience, so even though I want to see through this illusion, there’s a lot of pushing and pulling going on.

4. What are you hoping for?

Even though I know this is just a romantic idea probably not based in reality, I just want all that struggle to go away that keeps me from doing what I need to do on a daily basis, and to be fully available to all life.

What is missing?

That feeling of pure freedom, letting go every moment, not holding onto anything, centerless experience, still struggling with that feeling that sometimes there is a center to experience, or like there is something moving from moment to moment.

[poppyseed]

Hey Pablo

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. Of course, honesty will make this work :)
Love
Rali

[rojitas839]

Is that OK with you?

I realized there’s a part of me that wants those fireworks lol, but I’m letting go of it slowly. We’ll get there :)

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

For some reason the word experiencer hits, I feel like a tiny amount of fear balled up in the chest area. No doer or decision maker doesn’t do anything since I saw that was the case. When I look for an I, all I can find left is a kind of sensation around the eyes that feels like a looker or an experiencer or a knower. It feels like that’s left is that one sensation. And even now I see more and more that it’s transient but sometimes it locks up and feels like a point of view. It feels like I’m seeing more and more that that sensation around my eyes that feels like it’s moving through time is a thought, but sometimes I don’t.

[poppyseed]

Hi Pablo
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something.
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing. Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Love
Rali

[rojitas839]

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Yes, completely agree.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Yes, there is only the appearance of an apple. There could be a thought that appears that comes with the label “apple” but there is nothing in direct experience that actually links the label with the appearance. It is only through believing in another thought that says “this label apple is the same as this appearance” that they can appear to be linked but this is not the case in actuality.

[poppyseed]

Hey,

Yes, there is only the appearance of an apple. There could be a thought that appears that comes with the label “apple” but there is nothing in direct experience that actually links the label with the appearance. It is only through believing in another thought that says “this label apple is the same as this appearance” that they can appear to be linked but this is not the case in actuality.

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour (what you call “appearance”), but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear? For the sake of clarity we will stick to the DE labels (hearing, seeing,…) and even though they are also labels for something indescribable, it will help with clear communication :)

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[rojitas839]

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour (what you call “appearance”), but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Yes, I like your explanation!

For me, some examples are:

When I'm on the train

Looking through the window, simply = colors and shapes (seeing)
Announcements coming from intercom, simply = sound (hearing)
Train moving, feeling the vibrations, simply = sensation (feeling)
Imagining how busy the train might get, simply = thought (thinking)

Eating food

Seeing the food in the container = colors and shapes (seeing)
Hearing the microwave ding when it's ready = sound (hearing)
Smelling the food, simply = smell (smelling)
Tasting the food, simply = taste (tasting)
Holding the taste of the food in my mind, simply = thought (thinking)
Holding the cold fork in my hand, simply = sensations (sensing)

And maybe I'm getting ahead of myself with this example lol

Experience of self

Dense feelings around the eyes = sensations (sensing)
Eyes moving = sensations (sensing)
Mental impressions of a face, eyes = thoughts (thinking)
Feeling like something is moving through time = thoughts (thinking)

[poppyseed]

Hi Pablo

Looking through the window, simply = colors and shapes (seeing)
Announcements coming from intercom, simply = sound (hearing)

Great! Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.
How does it feel to see what actually is?

One thing, when you mention both colour and shapes, how do these differ? Experience/THIS can be likened to an abstract painting and if you look at an abstract painting you start to see shapes etc within the painting itself. Those shapes aren’t really there…but they SEEM (appear) to be. So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist?

Without thought, can you actually find a separate thing called “shape”? Or is “shape” just the pattern that colour appears as?
Is there ever “shape” that isn’t entirely made of “colour”? Isn’t “shape” just a thought about how colour is arranged?
Try now:
Look at anything—a hand, a chair, a line on a wall.
Can you peel shape off of colour?
Where’s the dividing line?
Where’s the actual separation?
Look freshly.
Are there colour and shape?
Or just colour—appearing in a pattern—then named “shape” after?

Experience of self

Dense feelings around the eyes = sensations (sensing)
Eyes moving = sensations (sensing)
Mental impressions of a face, eyes = thoughts (thinking)
Feeling like something is moving through time = thoughts (thinking)

Good. That’s not ahead of anything. That’s right on time.
You just described what gives rise to the illusion of a self:
•Dense sensations around the eyes
•Subtle eye movement
•Mental impressions of a face
•The thought of “something moving through time”
All present. All simple. But none of that is a self.
So now… look again:
Without labelling any of it, is there anything there with its own continuity?
Does anything persist as a “center”? Have an honest look! Where exactly is this center (not imaginary location)?
Or is it just this flickering stream of sensations, sounds, colours, and thought? If there’s no object without a label, is there a subject – a knower, a seer, an experiencer…?
Look directly—does knowing have a colour, a texture? Is it made of anything at all? Or is it simply the undeniable fact of experience happening?
Can you find an edge to knowing/experiencing? Does it start anywhere or end anywhere? Where does the knowing of seeing end and the seeing begin? The experiencing/this is there, but does it need knowing to be there? Is there anything to be known if there are no objects to be known and no knower?
Drop the ideas of “me”, “observer”, “experiencer”, “awareness”, “knowing”/”knower”, “witness”, “presence”…

What remains?
Describe it without reaching for a single concept.

Love
Rali

[rojitas839]

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It's a fun time I can't even lie!

Or just colour—appearing in a pattern—then named “shape” after?

I didn't even realize I was making that division but you're so right! The shape is not other than the color, it only appears after my mind traces the color to make a shape out of it. I can't peel the shape off the color like you said unless I use my mind to say the color is "in the shape" when the shape is the color! Nothing is in either one.

Without labelling any of it, is there anything there with its own continuity?

I can't find anything with continuity when I look closely. I feel like within the last three weeks it's been easier and easier to see this lack of continuity. If I'm not holding onto anything, it's pretty clear to see there's no continuity.

Does anything persist as a “center”? Have an honest look! Where exactly is this center (not imaginary location)?

This one is so subtle. When I look closely, there's really just the smallest suggestion of a center, and there's like a spectrum to it. Generally it just feels like the sensations in my head are just more localized, denser, tighter. But I can realize it doesn't constitute a self, yet it feels like it creates the smallest duality.

Or is it just this flickering stream of sensations, sounds, colours, and thought? If there’s no object without a label, is there a subject – a knower, a seer, an experiencer…?
Look directly—does knowing have a colour, a texture? Is it made of anything at all? Or is it simply the undeniable fact of experience happening?
Can you find an edge to knowing/experiencing? Does it start anywhere or end anywhere? Where does the knowing of seeing end and the seeing begin? The experiencing/this is there, but does it need knowing to be there? Is there anything to be known if there are no objects to be known and no knower?

Even though it might sounds like what I'm saying now contradicts what I said earlier, when I first tried doing what you did, I could see how absolutely everything is flickering. I couldn't find an edge to knowing of seeing and seeing itself. It created a pretty tight, scary feeling in the chest but I stayed with it till I had to join a work meeting. It was wild. I feel like I've been able to see this more and more clearly throughout the day, but I need to focus to see it. It's not effortless. I feel like I need more guidance to see this more clearly.

What remains?

Not even knowing remains, it's such a raw and simple experience that nothing could ever touch it. The best way I can describe it is it feels like what it would be like to sit inside of white noise. Let me know if you need me to describe things more.

[poppyseed]

Hi Pablo

You seem to think that sensations have a location (i.e. behind the eyes, chest area) so let’s explore the body…
Here are a couple of exercises that you can try:

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?
Observe the order in which the details appear

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Also, I noticed that you keep bringing up fear with respect to the inquiry:

It created a pretty tight, scary feeling in the chest but I stayed with it till I had to join a work meeting.

For some reason the word experiencer hits, I feel like a tiny amount of fear balled up in the chest area.

What I’ve realized ever since my last shift is how deep my fear is of experiencing the totality of everything without any gap.

So let’s examine this carefully. Fear/resistance serves to protect the imaginary self from harm.
What we’ll see soon is that fear is an emotion and emotions are just a sensation with a thought that gives it meaning as a result of past experience. Fear has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes - the survival of the imaginary self. So, obviously when the believes are threatened there will be fear involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with fear initially, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary... Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find.

I'll be away this weekend but should be back on Sunday evening.

Love
Rali

[rojitas839]

b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?

It appears, but nowhere in particular. In my experience, it feels like there needs to be a claiming or ownership of a particular sensation, which is like a thought that centers itself using some kind of reference point in order to locate things in relation to it. But in direct experience, there's no way to say where anything is located outside of thought.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No to all these questions. Only with thought can you create some kind of form or close in sensations into a shape. But in actuality, there's no shape or like dimensions to any sensations.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

No boundaries, just unlocatable, non-continuous sensations.

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

It goes back and forth for me still. For the most part, it's just a body, but sometimes there's a claiming or ownership of some kind of point of view, which comes from sensations that are around the eyes.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

It doesn't feel like there's an inside or outside at all anymore.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Just sensations that's it. These sensations can't be shaped into a body or anything solid at all though.

Can the 'body' do things?

I'm not sure if I'm getting the depth of what you're asking, but what I got so far when I explored that question is when the body's touching or grabbing things, all I can say is there are sensations that are felt, and that it takes a string of thoughts to create some kind of body interacting with other objects out there, but in direct experience there's just the unfolding of different appearances and sensations.