Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

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this2passes
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby this2passes » Tue Apr 29, 2025 1:30 pm

Thank you May.
Stay with that freshness, let it show itself naturally.

There’s no rush, no effort, just quiet seeing.
Doing this every sit, and also anytime I'm alone/quiet.
I bring awareness to where my foot touches the ground. As I bring awareness from outside the space towards the place where the foot is touching the ground, there is a thought that it is solid, but when I actually probe each spot after another, there is nothing per se solid there. It is just a cloud of emptiness there as well.

Will continue doing this quiet seeing.

PK

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Maylson
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby Maylson » Tue Apr 29, 2025 5:05 pm

Hi, KP!

So now… I want to ask:

What are you still trying to find?

If there’s no solidity, if even sensation fades into a cloud,

If nothing is missing, and no one is looking, then what are you still holding on to?

What movement still says:
“Yes, but…”
“Just to be sure…”
“Maybe I should keep watching…”


What’s left to confirm?

Isn’t the very impulse to continue,to keep doing quiet seeing, to stay with the emptiness just a more refined version of the same old question: “Have I arrived yet?”


So let’s be honest now:

Who still needs to be convinced?
Who still feels like it needs to get this right?



Isn’t that the last seeker, the one who doesn’t call himself “I” anymore, but still lingers as a quiet tension behind the act of looking?

Let even that dissolve!

There’s no arrival, my friend! Because no one ever left!
This isn’t the end, it’s the collapse of the idea that there was ever a journey.
May.

"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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this2passes
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby this2passes » Sat May 03, 2025 4:14 am

What are you still trying to find?
I don't know what I'm trying to find anymore! Had to go back and read the first post here. Now that post "what I want" makes no sense anymore :'(

If nothing is missing, and no one is looking, then what are you still holding on to?

What movement still says:
“Yes, but…”
“Just to be sure…”
“Maybe I should keep watching…”


What’s left to confirm?
A fear arose, if I am not there, then who will do all this? After a while the fear went away.
Then the question came "Who is doing all this". Then a feeling of "I am in control". Then I kept looking for the doer, who was controlling the breathing - not found. The doer who was making me walk - not found. The doer who decided to eat after feeling hungry - not found. Was pretty convinced that the "Doer" is the one controlling everything. Searched a lot couldn't find. There were feelings that I have to be in control. Those were thoughts and feelings, went away.
Thoughts or feelings arise. Actions happen. Through all this there is no Doer either.

Isn’t the very impulse to continue,to keep doing quiet seeing, to stay with the emptiness just a more refined version of the same old question: “Have I arrived yet?”

So let’s be honest now:

Who still needs to be convinced?
Who still feels like it needs to get this right?

A thought arises that I need permission, it can't be that easy, it has to need more hard work.
These thoughts go away, there is a sense that I am not worthy to get it right.

There is a pit in my stomach, a pinch near my eye. Both those are not "I" they just are there, the feeling goes away.


Isn’t that the last seeker, the one who doesn’t call himself “I” anymore, but still lingers as a quiet tension behind the act of looking?

Let even that dissolve!

There’s no arrival, my friend! Because no one ever left!
This isn’t the end, it’s the collapse of the idea that there was ever a journey.
There is a thought - "I never left, I already arrived". It goes round and round and nowhere.
There is a thought "You have to get permission" Looking for the one seeking permission. No one there.
Thought "The moment has to feel special" - it goes away.

Confused - no where to go? What to do now?

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Maylson
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby Maylson » Mon May 05, 2025 4:36 am

KP,

Now stay right here.

Not knowing what to do, not needing to go anywhere. no path, no task, no special moment to reach.

Just this:

The sense of “I should be doing something”.
Look at it. Where is it anchored?

That movement to “keep watching, ”to “get permission,” to feel “worthy,” to make it feel special...

All of it floats, unclaimed, unsupported, untrue.

You’ve seen there is no doer.
No one to control, no one to arrive, didnt you?

So who is confused?
Who is waiting for the next instruction?
hat is this confusion… arising to whom?


Isn’t even the confusion just more weather?
It has no center. It passes like everything else.

So the question “what now?”, is just the last echo of a seeker trying to survive extinction... the last flicker of a character that only ever existed in thought.
May.

"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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this2passes
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby this2passes » Wed May 07, 2025 4:08 am

KP,

Now stay right here.

Not knowing what to do, not needing to go anywhere. no path, no task, no special moment to reach.

Just this:

The sense of “I should be doing something”.
Look at it. Where is it anchored?
Was a thought, was there, then went away. Then there was just nothing left.

That movement to “keep watching, ”to “get permission,” to feel “worthy,” to make it feel special...

All of it floats, unclaimed, unsupported, untrue.

You’ve seen there is no doer.
No one to control, no one to arrive, didnt you?

So who is confused?
Who is waiting for the next instruction?
hat is this confusion… arising to whom?

This was what happened. There was no one waiting, it was a thought. There was a feeling of confusion, then when I explored who was confused, turned out the confusion was also a thought, and it went off.

Isn’t even the confusion just more weather?
It has no center. It passes like everything else.

So the question “what now?”, is just the last echo of a seeker trying to survive extinction... the last flicker of a character that only ever existed in thought.
Finally, the search for who was asking "what now?" also showed it was a thought, and there was no one actually looking for what next.

There was no need to search, because there was no need to go anywhere, because there is just a being in the now. Thoughts come and go. Actions happen. Feelings arise and pass away. There is no observer. There is no thinker. There is no doer.

The last barrier to fall was the assumption that "I am the doer". When it was observed that actions were happening and there was no Doer to be found, that fell.

I am traveling, and normally the buzz/drone of the airplane would bother me a lot. Now it also just is, something in the background, no need to react to it.

Thank you May!

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Maylson
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby Maylson » Thu May 08, 2025 3:29 am

Exactly, KP!!!

No one doing, no one reacting, no one left to manage the experience. Just what arises, without ownership. This is it. Nothing to fix, nothing missing.

Do you want to explore anything else? Anything in particular? :)

Here, we usually do a quick checkpoint to see if there’s any residual belief still hanging around. May I go ahead?
May.

"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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this2passes
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby this2passes » Thu May 08, 2025 3:51 am

Exactly, KP!!!

Here, we usually do a quick checkpoint to see if there’s any residual belief still hanging around. May I go ahead?
Thank you May! It's been a couple of days, and it continues to be the same. Thoughts arise and pass, emotions arise are seen and pass, sensations (including from sight) arise and pass...

I woke up in the middle of the night from jetlag, and usually there would be irritation that I woke up, why do I have jet lag, why do I need to be awake, I'm going to have a bad day, etc.

Instead it was just felt as body is awake, it's a result of travel, we can relax, and if we are awake, we're awake, no point resisting it.

And the days have been the same, no one there to protest, no one there to crave, no one there to fear. Just observe it seems it pass..

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Maylson
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby Maylson » Thu May 08, 2025 4:14 am

It’s amazing to hear, KP! It sounds like you're seeing clearly the flow of thoughts, sensations, and emotions without the attachment to them, without the need to react or resist. The shift from "I’m awake and this is a problem" to simply "the body is awake" shows a deeper recognition of the impermanence of experience.

So here it goes:

Please answer all the questions based on your current seeing, without going into theoretical concepts. Take all the time you need, no hurry! Other guides will check your responses and may explore them a bit further if needed. Use the “quote tool” in all responses.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe
- decision,
- intention,
- free will,
- choice and control.


What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
May.

"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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this2passes
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby this2passes » Thu May 08, 2025 2:29 pm

Hi May!
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. There is no separate "I".

It was never there. There were thoughts which referenced an "I". There were sensations which were mis-identified as "I". There was an assumption/thought that things being done, were being done by a "me"..



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
As a child, when there was a need to learn to do things and achieve things, a separation was created between the world and the "I", so that the I could do things to the world - to see an actor as an ingredient, to be able to predict, plan, and act and achieve. This was probably initially a tool for learning consequences, but then became a sticky container for all things "owned". This then became heavy and seemed real.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Once it was seen that neither perception, nor thoughts, nor action have a "seer, thinker, doer" present, then this "I" weakened and with enough repetition was seen through completely as an illusion. Then it no longer is brought up by the mind often, since cause and effect, perception, thought and action, all continue without it. And by adulthood, thoughts about the "I", to sustain it, to grow it, to perpetuate it, were using considerable resources making everything difficult, tight, tiring, costly. Seeing through it and letting go, creates space, releases energy (used earlier to maintain "I"), and makes everything lighter.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The last bit was that there was Doer who was responsible for getting here (to liberation unleashed for instance) and who was needed to get liberated. When I looked for that Doer and found no one, then looked for any Doer and found none, and then saw that all actions arose and happened, there was no Doer, then the illusion completely fell apart.


5) Describe
- decision,
- intention,
- free will,
- choice and control.
Intentions can be set - while they do not cause action in that moment.

Intentions guide decisions - decisions arise because of past actions, intentions, and what is happening now, but there is no "self" making the decisions now.

There is no "Self" who is deciding things in the moment. After the fact, the "Self" was getting attributed to a decision or to free-will. When the illusion is seen through, it is seen that decisions happen, there was no "free-will" making a this or that decision.

Choice and control are illusions - these may have helped as a child to build a world model to be able to understand causes and conditions. But there is no self, no choices, and no control in the present moment. Things arise and happen.


What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.
The things that happened in the past cause things to happen in the now. Everything that took place has a weight in what happens next. This includes past thoughts, intentions, actions. It is only that in the present moment there is no "self" that is causing things to happen.

I want to finish writing this response, that is an intention. When the conditions are not right (I am traveling, tired, sleepy), it the writing does not arise to happen. Then when I am awake, and the conditions are appropriate, then the action of opening the laptop, finding the post, understanding it, crafting a reply, all happen moment by moment. Each subsequent action follows as more likely, until something else happens to create a change. For example, hunger, or completion. Then those conditions cause different actions.



What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
The first answer is that "I" am responsible for nothing since I do nothing - then I see that it is naive.

A more complex answer is that all future states depend on current states, where intentions, exposure to different stimuli, all shape future states. So choicelessly (and "self"-lessly maintaining right view, right intention -> each then contributes to the next domino.

So while the "Self" is responsible for nothing, there is still intention, effort, and action, which are happening on their own which can be setup to be right.
6) Anything to add?
Thank you May for patiently walking me through the questions, to see through this illusion. It has been such a blessing!

Warm Regards,
PK.

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Maylson
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby Maylson » Fri May 09, 2025 1:30 am

Hey KP,

There’s a rare clarity in what you’re seeing, the absence of doer, of control, of ownership. That’s beautiful!!!

But there are a few remaining subtleties I’d love to explore with you.

You said:
“Future states depend on current states… dominoes falling forward…”
And:
“There is still intention, effort, and action… which are happening on their own, which can be set up to be right.”
I understand this might just be the way language comes out, not necessarily a belief. But it's worth checking:

Is there still an underlying sense that cause and effect unfold across time as something real, or is that just more weather, too?

Does anything truly persist through time?
Or is “past, present, and future” just another mental lens, like the sense of self, once assumed to be real, but never actually grounded?

In direct experience, is there ever more than THIS?

Who or what is “setting things up”?

Even without a self, what exactly is doing the aligning? Isn’t that just thought interpreting the flow after the fact?

Is there really a forward movement. a path from here to there?
Is reality unfolding like dominoes... or is that just a story appearing within what never moves?

Just questions. no fixing. Let them sit and see what stirs. :)
May.

"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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this2passes
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby this2passes » Fri May 09, 2025 2:59 am

Hey KP,

There’s a rare clarity in what you’re seeing, the absence of doer, of control, of ownership. That’s beautiful!!!
Thank you! The clarity feels like a solid rock..

But there are a few remaining subtleties I’d love to explore with you.

In direct experience, is there ever more than THIS?
No. In direct experience, there is only the present moment, sensations, thoughts arising/passing.

You said:
“Future states depend on current states… dominoes falling forward…”
And:
“There is still intention, effort, and action… which are happening on their own, which can be set up to be right.”
I understand this might just be the way language comes out, not necessarily a belief. But it's worth checking:

Is there still an underlying sense that cause and effect unfold across time as something real, or is that just more weather, too?
There is no thing called cause and effect. What is happening in this moment and what is happening in the next moment can only be tied up in the mind in thought. There is no real direct experience between the two. There is one moment, set of sensations/thoughts/observations. Then a next moment with it's set of sensations/thoughts.

Does anything truly persist through time?
Or is “past, present, and future” just another mental lens, like the sense of self, once assumed to be real, but never actually grounded?
No, nothing persists through time in direct experience. There are sensations coming in. They change moment to moment. Some of the sensations are given labels in thought. There are thoughts from memory that compare these labels over time. There are thoughts of how they could be related. Nothing of this is seen in direct experience.
Who or what is “setting things up”?

Even without a self, what exactly is doing the aligning? Isn’t that just thought interpreting the flow after the fact?
There is definitely no self that is aligning or setting things up.
These are all thoughts interpreting what might be, based on the idea of dependent origination. I do not have direct experience of how this works.

Is there really a forward movement. a path from here to there?
Is reality unfolding like dominoes... or is that just a story appearing within what never moves?

Just questions. no fixing. Let them sit and see what stirs. :)
There is no forward moment. There is only experience in the moment. Then experience in the moment. Experience in the moment. Something arises and something passes away in the moment. The thought, or sensation, arises from nothing, and then passes away into nothing.

Thank you,
KP

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this2passes
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby this2passes » Mon May 12, 2025 6:21 pm

Hi May,

Over the weekend, and today, had times where there was no sense of self, few to no thoughts, little "stickiness" to thoughts, easier identification of emotions coming and going.

Lots of relaxation/loosening up of tight areas in the upper/lower back, during meditation as well.

More presence and wider awareness and stillness as well.

Thanks!
Prasanna

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Maylson
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby Maylson » Tue May 13, 2025 10:12 pm

Hey KP, how are you right now?

That sounds really spacious, a lot of settling and clarity coming through. The softening in the body, the lighter quality of thoughts, and the shift in how emotions are seen, all of that points to a deepening recognition of what’s already here, without ownership.

Just stay open and curious. No rush at all.
Even what seems like “no self” is just another appearance, nothing to hold on to. Let everything come and go, including clarity itself.

I’ve shared your previous responses with other guides so they can take a look too. Sometimes it takes a little while for them to respond. It’s just part of the process here on the forum to support the investigation from different angles and help confirm what’s been seen. :)

Really glad to see this unfolding.
May.

"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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this2passes
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby this2passes » Wed May 14, 2025 12:01 am

Hey KP, how are you right now?
I'm at an event and speaking with people and listening to talks has been so different. I'm comfortable just taking things in. There are thoughts objecting to things people say, and they just go away by themselves. Previously I would have been stuck/spiraling with those thoughts and forgotten the train of what the other person was saying. Now I stay engaged with the speaker and listen and if a response comes up I speak it. It is a lot easier and a lot less tiring/stressful.

As an introvert, many excuses come up to not speak to people, and now I can see those are either thoughts or fear or feelings of lower self worth, that can just be felt and then go away.. Don't need to treat them as special or as true..

Some interesting insights coming up as well about work and my interests as well.. treating those as thoughts as well, and noting some of them for future working through..

Most of the time there is wider awareness, few to no thoughts, absorbing what the speaker is saying while enjoying the beauty of the weather and the scenery...

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Maylson
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Re: Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

Postby Maylson » Wed May 14, 2025 12:47 am

This is it, my, friend!
Not a peak. Not a state. Not a spiritual experience.

Just life, lived without the burden of a “me” interpreting, defending, resisting, or improving it.

What you’re describing isn’t something you’re doing.
It’s what happens when there’s no one left doing.

No fight with thoughts.
No need to fix emotions.
No story of self-worth to maintain.

Just this! unfolding, engaging, effortless.

And there’s no need to hold on to this, either.
Let it come. Let it shift. Let it vanish.

Because nothing needs to be kept and no one is here to lose it.

This is not a new you!
It’s what was always happening... now simply without resistance.

Let’s just stay in touch from here.
No more fixing. Just living!
May.

"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti


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