Who am I really?

[razorsedge]

Thank you again,

It very well could be that the recognition happened that was gradual and I just didn’t notice it. It’s quite clear that life over the last several months has changed in many significant ways. What you said here feels like, at least at some level, an accurate description of what is happening:

And with no magical disappreance of egoic patterns and tendencies, but that there is somewhat more capacity to see it now and that it gets dropped by itself more often, just out of simple trivial recognition that trying to stand out from experience and control it doesn't work, can't really be done? And that yet, paradoxically, all normal efforts and processes of learning and maturing and unlearning continue...


The doubts that come up are almost all comparison related, which I know is … what it is, but I don’t know how else to try to be completely honest with my experience without comparing it to expectations.

When I see others who have had a clear shift speak about it, they have so much more certainty. Maybe this is because they’ve had longer for it to sink in, but it feels like their understanding of no-self also comes with a sense of, as Angelo Dilullo describes it, a shift in identity towards feeling more identified with everything or nothing rather than as an individual. I honestly can’t say that that’s the current situation here.

I can’t find a self when I look. It’s mostly clear that thoughts aren’t it and the body isn’t it but I sure don’t feel like there’s been any “self-realization” or “no-self realization” anything like that. I suppose I’m still expecting a clear moment of recognition and I feel nervous to stop looking until that’s clearer. I don’t know if it’s “true and genuine” yet.

I to avoid complacency while also avoiding the unnecessary angst of constant seeking.

I want to face all fears—let life bring all the fear! But when there is no fear, I want to be open enough for love.

I want to be open to life knowing nothing for certain except that what I am is not a separate self.

[Elad]

Marcus,

Your honesty and commitment to staying with direct experience are clear. The recognition that something has changed, even without a dramatic moment of realization, shows a willingness to trust what is actually happening rather than what is expected to happen. Your openness to not knowing is also evident - this is crucial, as any finality in "knowing" is another story.

Now, let’s look at some blind spots and assumptions:

You say comparison-related doubts arise, but that you don’t know how to be honest about your experience without comparing it to expectations. Who told you that honesty requires comparison? What is actually here, right now, before any comparison arises?

You mention others having more certainty and speaking of identity shifting into "everything" or "nothing." Do you actually need this shift in identity, or is that another way of reinforcing a seeker identity? What happens if you experiment with dropping any beliefs about how it "should" feel?

You say you can’t find a self when you look, and thoughts and body aren’t it. But you don’t feel like there’s been a “self-realization.” If there’s no self to realize all ready, it is just this absence of any solid self, evident in your experience every time you look, what exactly is supposed to happen?

You are open to knowing nothing for certain, except that you are not a separate self. So you know that there is no unicorn that is you, and there is no separate self in control and responsible, that is you... What if that's it? How does it feel to let that in?

This is it. Look.

[razorsedge]

Who told you that honesty requires comparison? What is actually here, right now, before any comparison arises?

No one told me that, I think what I’m referring to is wanting to be honest about labeling a “seeing” correctly as such. As an example, your name in this forum is red and mine is green. If I were to say “yes, it’s now seen clearly, turn my name red so I can change roles and begin helping other people experience no self in the same way I’ve been helped” I’d want that to be a statement made from a place of relative certainty, otherwise it’d be doing a disservice to someone who came here for help seeing clearly. That’s pretty contrived, I realize, but maybe illustrative of what I mean?

As far as what’s here right now before comparison arises—there are all kinds of thoughts about still wanting to get something etc. and at the same time a recognition that the thoughts are simply arising. What’s here outside of them is not grasping and doesn’t need to be defined and doesn’t need anything to be different.

You mention others having more certainty and speaking of identity shifting into "everything" or "nothing." Do you actually need this shift in identity, or is that another way of reinforcing a seeker identity? What happens if you experiment with dropping any beliefs about how it "should" feel?

There are lots of stories about how that shift is the first step—the gateless gate. Clearly the mind wants to “get something” from passing that gate while at the same time knowing it’s not something that can be experienced by mind. It’s like the mind just doesn’t quite believe it. It’s like “yeahhh but I’ll know something otherwise how could all these people go on Youtube and describe it so clearly. They say it’s nothing their mind can understand, but then they go on about it for 20 minutes.”

That used to be a pretty big source of frustration. At this point I would not say that the seeking mind has stopped—there’s still a desire to listen to videos because it feels relaxing and sometimes there are insights that come up while listening to them. For the most part though it’s not a grasping at trying to “get it” or feeling bad that I don’t.

All that seems to be a long way of answering your question to say “no.” I don’t necessarily need that shift. There are stories about wanting it so I’ll have more clarity about what’s the grasping mind and what’s the natural flow of life etc., but without the stories, outside of thought, everything is fine.

it is just this absence of any solid self, evident in your experience every time you look, what exactly is supposed to happen?

I think I’ve touched on some of the “supposed to’s” above and… there’s still a bit of a story that “it should be clearer” but again, without the story I don’t feel like I need to grasp for more than the sufficient-present.

What if that's it? How does it feel to let that in?

Honestly in the moment, it feels, a bit disappointing if that’s it. And confusing because of all the books and videos and stuff and the way they describe life “after” they woke up. I’m not really looking for anything exceptional. I’ve never been into having big spiritual experiences. I don’t want to have something I can tell people about or start a youtube channel about.

There’s just this intuition that having a clearer understanding of no-self would also come with a clearer sense of understanding for the ACIM “Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God.” There’s still a sense here of something to protect. On one hand when I look, I find no evidence for a self. On the other hand when I look at how deep the feeling of “nothing real can be threatened” is, I wonder if no-self is still more of a conceptual understanding than an experiential one.

That’s what comes up now… catch me tomorrow and I don’t know if I’ll agree with any of this. Thank you again.

[Elad]

It's great - crucial - you stay so sincere and true to your heart.

What is it that you feel you need to protect, that you wish you did not feel a need to protect? And how would you exactly wish you would feel about it instead?

Be as concrete as possible. And look at it with fresh beginners heart eyes. Not recycling just beliefs.

[razorsedge]

What is it that you feel you need to protect, that you wish you did not feel a need to protect? And how would you exactly wish you would feel about it instead?

I can see when I watch the body move that it’s definitely not “me” doing it. It’s just doing. When I’m talking to someone and step back, I can often tell that the talking is just happening. Sometimes it’s almost surprising. Right now I can tell that thoughts are totally out of control. They sure as hell still “feel” in a lot of ways very convincingly like they’re me, but even a cursory look reveals that they are just there, coming and going. The thing is, even if it’s noticed that there’s no controller of the body or mind, it doesn’t seem to show anything or change anything. It doesn’t feel like whatever it is that is actually aware that anything’s happening “is” or isn’t anything at all. It still feels like all the tension of being a “me” is there and it’s still mostly just as uncomfortable as ever.

It doesn’t feel like there was a realization.


It doesn’t feel like there was any shift in identity. It almost feels like a slight loss of attachment to an identity that still has to maintain itself in the relative world. It still has to keep up appearances for work and family and friends etc. Sometimes the inevitability of is more or less obvious, but it doesn’t really feel like there’s any relief in that. At least not right now.

It feels like there’s an intentional letting go now and at every possible chance, but not a collapse of perspectives and attachments. Not a release or sense of relief.

It doesn’t feel like there’s non-duality. It feels like there’s life from the perspective of a self but not really anyone controlling it. It mostly feels like the self is just doing its thing naturally, but still separately.

Basically almost none of the “good stuff” from all the non-duality books, speakers, etc. doesn’t seem to be here. Not none, there has been more gratitude, less suffering, more equanimity. I can’t help but laugh at how I say there’s none of the good stuff then I mention the good stuff. I guess there’s just not a feeling of clarity.

There’s really still just a wish for a moment of waking up, kensho, satori, samadhi, gateless gatecrashing, realization. Why the wish? I guess because of the comparison thing. It seems like everyone who’s had it knows they’ve had it. I can’t really think of almost any exceptions from the zillion and one people I’ve listened to talk about this. That’s the one commonality—there’s no ambiguity as to whether there was a moment of truth, a holy instant, etc. There’s a mistrust that if I haven’t seen that way that I’m off-track. Fooling myself. Conceptually understanding, but still only conceptually. Mentally. Imaginary. Doubt arises. Like I know everyone says it’s not what you expect, but they also say you’ll know it when you see it.

[Elad]

I'll resopond to all this within a couple of days.

For now, please re-read the questions I asked you in last message and try and answer them in as precise a way as possible.

What is it that you feel you need to protect, that you wish you did not feel a need to protect? And how would you exactly wish you would feel about it instead?

Be as concrete as possible. And look at it with fresh beginners heart eyes. Not recycling just beliefs. Be as concrete as possible. Don't tell me your habits. Tell me when you look NOW with all your heart and clarity.

What exactly is it that you really find NOW that you feel you need to protect? And how exactly would you wish to relate with it differently NOW?

[Elad]

Time opened here for more response...

I appreciate your clarity in seeing how experience unfolds on its own, without a controller. You are noticing directly what is here, and you are sincere in not settling for second-hand ideas or half-clarity. That sincerity itself is invaluable.

At the same time, I sense how expectation is shaping your experience, looking for a "shift in identity", something that will confirm to you beyond doubt that you are “there”. This expectation pulls you toward comparison, toward stories of others rather than what is actually happening now. It turns awakening into an idea rather than what is simply, obviously here. I have a sense you particularly using Angelo Dillulos languaging/poining as a bench mark. This can be valuable in so far as it motivates to keep looking and taking your direct experience seriously, and not buying into a BELIEF that "you are awake". At the same time it keeps orientation towards fantasy land rather full hearted engagement with just what is here.

It would be helpful, maybe, to notice that somehow a big part of you is more interested and engaged in the story of you and the stories of awakening and its charms, then in WHAT IS HERE AND WHAT IS NOT HERE. It would not help to try and deny or scold or forcibly change this. It will help to notice it as clear as possible without doing anything about it. Then it is just another movement in the awakening process.

I also sense a lot of feeling behind this letter, maybe anger, frustration. That may be something important to fully allow into awareness. Not to explain or analyze - just to be with, and again allow as a natural, even juicy, part of the awakening process.

I am with you.

[razorsedge]

Hey Elad, thank you again.

What exactly is it that you really find NOW that you feel you need to protect? And how exactly would you wish to relate with it differently NOW?

Right now at this very moment it is clear there’s nothing that needs protection. At this moment there is just sitting here in a chair typing and there’s nothing wrong, nothing needs to be different.

Of course if I sit here asking “what do I need to protect” tons of stories arise about the future but I’m pretty sure that’s not what you’re asking for. Right now, everything is taken care of freely with no effort.

There’s no need to relate with anything differently right now. There are different feelings in the body, some of them “good,” others aches and pains but even those are ok right now.

At the same time, I sense how expectation is shaping your experience, looking for a "shift in identity", something that will confirm to you beyond doubt that you are “there”. This expectation pulls you toward comparison, toward stories of others rather than what is actually happening now. It turns awakening into an idea rather than what is simply, obviously here.

Yes, I can see that too. I can see it’s a belief and a story and even sitting right here looking at it, it feels solid. Like my tendency is to start rattling off more stuff about how this particular belief is okay. Like if I ask “do I 100% know it’s true that there needs to be a shift in identity” the answer is…. no, not 100% but damn near that. Like if there’s not that then I understand literally nothing about any of this. But let’s go with the wee bit of doubt that arises to make it 99.7%. How would it feel to drop the belief that there has to be a shift? Well, it would feel probably like a big relief. Like I could just enjoy what this is right now without having the pressure of getting to the next step. Maybe there doesn’t need to be an identity shift. Maybe there doesn’t need to be one right now anyway. Maybe it happens but it’s gradual. Maybe it’s something else altogether that can’t be conceived of now. Maybe it’s already here.

After writing that it feels a bit looser and more open. Definitely some relief. Could also be the caffeine kicking in :)

I also sense a lot of feeling behind this letter, maybe anger, frustration. That may be something important to fully allow into awareness. Not to explain or analyze - just to be with, and again allow as a natural, even juicy, part of the awakening process.

Thank you for pointing that out. There was definitely frustration and probably anger. Allowing it feels good and I love how you describe it as a juicy part of the process. That feels freeing.

I’ll be out of town through Monday. It’s quite likely I’ll have some time to write some or all of the days but if not, I’ll be back Tuesday.

Thank you again.
-Marcus

[Elad]

How would it feel to drop the belief that there has to be a shift? Well, it would feel probably like a big relief. Like I could just enjoy what this is right now without having the pressure of getting to the next step. Maybe there doesn’t need to be an identity shift. Maybe there doesn’t need to be one right now anyway. Maybe it happens but it’s gradual. Maybe it’s something else altogether that can’t be conceived of now. Maybe it’s already here.

After writing that it feels a bit looser and more open.

Beautiful. And paradoxically, as you let go of stories and rest in THIS, at some point it might feel right for you to call it "identity shift", this will probably come at the point where the interest in THIS is felt as clearly superior to the interest in the ego story/enlightenment story.

Thank you for pointing that out. There was definitely frustration and probably anger. Allowing it feels good and I love how you describe it as a juicy part of the process. That feels freeing.

Perfect! Let yourself swim in the juicy enjoyment of the steamy anger and all the other alive stuff...

[razorsedge]

Hi Elad,

where the interest in THIS is felt as clearly superior to the interest in the ego story/enlightenment story.

I like that. There seems to be a noticeable back and forth between thoughts and stories of a character on a trajectory to make life better and interest in “this.” It seems like trust is slowly being built up, or said differently, attachment is slowly being let go of, to the idea that there is a need to maintain the story for life to “work.” Again and again I can see that it’s simply not necessary and the interest in it gets less and less.

The feeling of frustration seems less right now. It seems to dissipate when expectations are dropped. Right now it feels fine to keep attention on reality as it is and the interesting way it seems to be completely self-sustaining without the need for a controller yet also still somehow fully engaging.

[Elad]

Hi Elad,

where the interest in THIS is felt as clearly superior to the interest in the ego story/enlightenment story.

I like that. There seems to be a noticeable back and forth between thoughts and stories of a character on a trajectory to make life better and interest in “this.” It seems like trust is slowly being built up, or said differently, attachment is slowly being let go of, to the idea that there is a need to maintain the story for life to “work.” Again and again I can see that it’s simply not necessary and the interest in it gets less and less.

The feeling of frustration seems less right now. It seems to dissipate when expectations are dropped. Right now it feels fine to keep attention on reality as it is and the interesting way it seems to be completely self-sustaining without the need for a controller yet also still somehow fully engaging.

Beautiful!

Now explore: Is there any real contradiction between enjoying stories of self and future fantasies, playing with that on the one hand, and on the other hand THIS? Or can even the stories be enjoyed as a natural movement of the mystery?

[razorsedge]

There is a story that unless I'm completely aware of being aware that that's not being "awake." I notice though I can be lost in activity or even thought and not suffering, or even selfing at all. Life is happening unimpeded and it's fine.

There is also a story that filtering reality through thoughts and stories is not being awake. When that story is challenged, thoughts come up that say "if that's not the case, then what's the point of all this?" I guess though that even that is being awake.

The only distinction between being awake and not awake still seems to come down to having an unquestionable understanding of no-self. I can see how that could make attachment to stories lighter or how it could help life to feel less serious or fearful. I can also see that without that certainty THIS is still just as much THIS as it would be with it.

Yes, it would probably be nice to have that certainty but I can sort of see how it's not really a special thing. It feels sort of scary to say that because "then what's the point" but... at least at the moment it feels hard to see what the difference is.

The story comes up that as soon as suffering comes back, I'll see the difference real fast, but there's been plenty of suffering lately and even that has already been OK.

Anyway. That's what's here tonight.

I will again be out of town tomorrow until Sunday night for a funeral but will check in and possibly write while I'm traveling.

[Elad]

It seems like you are very much still evaluating the whole process through thoughts... Which is never the level where awakening happens.

Maybe it would help you with a simple approach at this stage. Stay with one simple question, could be one of the following:

What am I?

Is it true that there is no doer?

What is aware?

What makes things happen?

Is there a self apart from this?

....

Or another question of this sort that speak to your heart. And just stay with asking that question until clarity and conviction beyond thinking dawns.

No thought reaction or sensation is "the answer". When you ask the question, whatever comes up in terms of thoughts, emotions, etc is fine, its just part of the flow... AND, critically, you don't stay focused on that thinking.

Would it make sense to you to work like this?

[razorsedge]

Yes. Ok, thank you.

That sounds like a good approach to me as well.

I'll use "what am I?"

Simple and direct. I will keep "in mind" not staying focused on thinking when that comes up.

[Elad]

Great!

And just be aware of the conflict or difference between what is directly experienced when inquiring on the one hand and all the ideas and beliefs on the other. Be aware of the conflict or difference without trying to make it go away.

I am here whenever you feel it is time to share again.