Having moments of liberation - wanting more!

[BlueRacoon]

With lots of looking I am aware that I could never describe the body from the sensations alone. I wouldn’t believe there was a boundary. It just feels like space where various sensations appear.

I saw a post from Ilona this morning that is feeling more and more true and I will keep looking at this as well:

The conscious mind is not playing the game; it is not the doer. Its role is to describe and make sense of what is happening on the field. The description does not move the body; it simply tells where and how the body moves and explains why.
The mind is more relaxed when it understands that what is happening is here to be witnessed, lived, and felt fully as it is, without judgment. It is not the mind that is responsible for making the future unfold in a certain way.

I woke up with anxiety and did the meditation you suggested and it’s completely released. What came (and feels true) was that it was an old childhood anxiety - the way I protected myself from feeling and displaying other feelings. I froze myself in anxiety to stay safe. Sadness rolled through and I feel pretty peaceful now.

I am sensing a quickening from the universe - pointers keep coming and I am enjoying that. Thank you for your support and guidance. I’m glad we’ve met as your guidance feels very right for me at this time. Feels meant to be.

Thanks!

[Anastacia42]

It is my pleasure, Katty. This is the most fun I have all day.

Keep practicing ButtChair and posting what is found (or not found!). You're right. It's just space.

Very glad the anxiety pointer worked for you and that you remembered to use it.

There are a couple of pointers about the body. Do you want those are are you getting overloaded?

Loving,

[BlueRacoon]

I would love the pointers about the body. I'm ready for it - I feel like I am taking things in and able to use them; what's not important now falls away.

I will keep looking at ButtChair (and I am generally looking at body sensations when I do that - I assume that's okay?)

Thanks!

[Anastacia42]

Great. So here's the first one.


Introductory Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Loving

[BlueRacoon]

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No to all of those. Without images, I notice the sensations move around. I also noticed that it was hard to focus on the sensations - the longer I looked the more vague the sense of anything I was looking at became and it made it hard to look - similar to it being hard to focus the eyes when an image is blurry. On weight - I can notice an intensity in sensation where the butt is on the seat, but it is just in the area of imagined contact and the idea that that means there is weight is just that, an idea.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No. If I don't bring in the mind to make pictures of the boundary, it is just a fuzzy awareness of something, when I can find that. Sometimes there is just nothing at all.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

With eyes closed, no. There are just sensations in an imagined space.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

With eyes closed and thoughts turned off, body either doesn’t exist or it is just a collection of sensations that appear here and there. It is amazing that when images of the body are dropped, how vague and fuzzy everything becomes!

Thanks for the pointers - I will keep at it.

I just noticed a “notify me when a reply is posted” - it is checked now, but I think I may have inadvertently unchecked that before on something more global that I just checked earlier. We will see. Fingers crossed.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning

I hope you get the notice.

Good seeing. Here's another on body:


Deeper Body Investigation

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.

Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Loving,

[BlueRacoon]

Can't remember if I told you - I'm getting the notices again. Must be that somehow I accidentally turned that off so glad I found it and got it back on.

I can feel my mind resisting where this is going...

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

If my mind doesn't glue things together, there is no connection.

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

There is a link between sensations and movement, but that's about it. The sensations don't clearly seem like a "hand," they are just sensations.

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Same as with the mirror.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

I am still having difficulty not putting the idea of an object on to things I see. So intellectually I can see it's all just colors and shapes and shading, but I am still seeing things. But I'm aware my mind is the one separating images out in to things.

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Definitely only thoughts. There is nothing seen that could tell me what is outside of the image.

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

Only sensations. No body.

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

This one was weird. I have never noticed before that there can be very little sensation while walking. We have a two story and going down the stairs was again like being a ghost. When I was going upstairs, there was more sensation that I connected to labels of knees, feet, thighs...

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Just thoughts and some sensations that could be fit in to the thoughts.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

Well, the obvious internal sensory experience says no. No to body. No to walking. Just a mental concept of both, and sensations stuck on it.

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

My direct experience would say the latter - I can't prove that the room is there or that there is a body moving through it. Just sensations, colors/shapes, and thoughts that glue it together.

This is what my mind is struggling with. So am I (a being) not here? Is there just awareness with sensory/thought input making all of this up?? Has this all been a sham? Is my body (and my whole life) just a figment of my imagination? My direct experience is pointing to that being true. And that is making me feel a bit anxious and crazy. My mind wants to flip it around and say that taking it all apart is the illusion (a little like a picture you can look at two ways and see something that isn't there). That you can't take things apart that way; to not let my mind paste things together is a problem.

But I can't deny that the solid "body" is not experienced as a solid thing. Vision seems critical to putting it all together (what does a blind-from-birth person do?) and then constructing in all in to an experience.

As a therapist, I see how people construct erroneous stories all of the time. This says we're all constructing an erroneous story of the most basic nature. It does fit with what Quantum Physics tells us - that things aren't solid the way we think they are.

Okay, I know that is a lot of thinking tacked on to the experience. I'll stay with the experience but it is a challenge to not get sucked in to all of the chatter.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Katty,

Yes, this can be really hard for a trained therapist who has set so much stock in what minds say (see my sig quote below). But you're right. Isn't that what you came to see? That there is no "self?" Let go and relax into that. It's safe. I promise. It has always been this way. Nothing is changing, except your perspective.

We are looking for a shift in perception - either gradual or mind-blowing - that you can point to and say, "I get it now. There is no separate self." Read "Gateless Gatecrashers" or completed threads in the Archive here for examples of what that sounds like.

So am I (a being) not here? Is there just awareness with sensory/thought input making all of this up??

Correct. There is no "self."

Has this all been a sham? Is my body (and my whole life) just a figment of my imagination?

Correct. Did you see "The Matrix?"

My direct experience is pointing to that being true. And that is making me feel a bit anxious and crazy.

It IS true. Honestly, you've been crazy your whole life. You are now becoming sane. You are seeing what really is.

You must be relaxed to SEE. It is likely to sneak up on you when you are not looking.

You might enjoy reading, "A Mind at Home With Itself," by Byron Katie at this point. Not required, but it might be helpful.

Keep looking at this new reality. Here is another way to do that. This is a pointer that may force you to look, not think:

ButtChair

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?


It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just LOOK.

Then write what is true.

I did only this and nothing else for 3 months and then saw. It crept up on me while I was sitting at a stoplight. Seeing often happens when we are simply relaxed and looking. I should say, it ONLY happens when we are relaxed and LOOKING. All of this thinking is useless. Truly.

Loving,

[BlueRacoon]

Thank you for your quick response. It is reassuring.

I will keep LOOKing. I feel like a kid who has just found out there is no Santa. Anxious -> then mad -> then sad -> then relaxed. A bit of "Fuck. I've believed all of this. I've suffered so much believing this shit. None of it exists" but there's no one to be mad at.

[Anastacia42]

Exactly! We use the Santa analogy often here.

Much love,

[BlueRacoon]

I was able to attend Vince's meeting today - that was good for me. I feel more settled now. I need to re-watch the "falling" video because I'm there now in a way I haven't been before. I can see how I will have to re-organize a lot. Thanks again for your support. I will keep at the experiential butt-in-seat.

[Anastacia42]

Katty, can you now say 100% there is no separate "self? "

Loving,

[BlueRacoon]

Yes, it is settling in but I see it. I woke up without anxiety this morning - I wondered but now I think it was so - the anxiety was about waking up. Funny you mentioned the movie The Matrix because I thought of that movie yesterday and thought of the moment Neo “popped” (threw up) when he realized the truth. It feels like I popped too - the part of me holding on finally let go.

I’ve heard that can happen (anxiety/existential dread) but couldn’t imagine why. Now I see. Everything changes and all the pointers make sense while nothing changes. But “it is all just happening” and Rupert Spira’s dream and movie screen analogy now make more than intellectual sense. My mind worries I will loose it, but another knowing part feels restful and says it will just get stronger.

:-)

Unless I am mistaken, you’ve guided me through the gateless gate. I am not here. Nothing is here - or maybe more correctly, who knows what is here. Vision was really keeping me stuck but I see through that now. And I can see that this is just the beginning. Any suggestions for the journey ahead would be appreciated.

Thank you Stacy.

[Anastacia42]

Oh Katty, I think you are right!

We have some traditional checkpoint questions. Other guides will read your answers and may have questions.

I suggest The Work of Byron Katie for questioning untrue thoughts that pop up and take us off our center.
www.thework.com

Take some time to be with your new awareness. Yes, this is just a beginning.

Then try these. Remember to quote one question and answer underneath, as you go.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving,
Stacy

[BlueRacoon]

I wanted to answer these to see where I am at, and help me shape my experience. I feel very in and out of focus. It is hard to digest what I now know, but my recent experiences make things I was thinking about (e.g. that color doesn't really exist) so much more understandable and truly relatable. I get it. None of this can truly be known other than direct experience, and the mind (if it exists) constructs the rest. It's just hard to keep that centermost in the mind.

Here goes:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Not only is there not a "self," it can't be known that there is a body, a mind, a world. There is just experience/awareness. It is impossible to truly know anything else. That is so fascinating.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

What it is and when it starts: The separate self is a belief that there is This Body that exists, separate from That Body that exists, and that there is an I that is This Body and a You that is That Body. The I is intertwined with thinking - the fusing of thinking with experiences (sensations, tastes, etc). I suppose that starts somewhere in early childhood but I don't know when. Parents immediately teach children the dream they are having by giving the child a name, and teaching them about objects and you versus me, etc.

How it works: Thoughts or other experiences arise, coming from somewhere. I used to think thoughts were "coming from my mind" and now after the mirror experiment, I realize I have no idea where they come from. They happen in awareness just like experiences do (sensations, tastes, smells). Then another thought comes along after the fact and says there is an "I" that created the unbidden thought or experienced the experience, rather than realizing that all of that just happens.

This is easiest for me to see with experiences. With thoughts, I can see but still am easily identified with my thoughts, even thinking right now that these are my thoughts. It is still a weird conundrum and I have to remind myself that these thoughts are just flowing - I can see that. There is no separate I needed for them to flow.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It was really upsetting the first day - made me anxious, angry, and sad. then some relief came. The second day, it felt really good and peaceful. There was a quietness in my mind, and everything was just so enjoyable with the mystery of it all. This morning there is more of a swirl and some anxiety - the falling I guess - of what does this all mean? My mind wants to "figure it out" and a part of me of course knows there is nothing or no need to figure anything out. But that is my mind's habit. For example, with my cancer, what does this mean for that? (Who can know?) What can I do? (Nothing besides what flows). There is some grasping for answers and uncertainty around what course to take. And a part of me knows that there is no decision in that.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I would say it was a building up of evidence over time. The hand-turning exercise definitely built on prior evidence that "it's all just happening." But then I thought there was a body that contained a brain that was making it happen. Still a physical being, if not a "me." Then the mirror exercise really had me question if the body exists at all or if that is just a construction. And when I realized the body can't truly be known, just like the apple can't truly be known, that just blew my mind.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decisions just happen and come from somewhere other than conscious thought. I can think "I am going to this" and even really want to do it, and I may do something else altogether. The other day I was planning on reading a book and sitting on the porch and instead I reorganized a closet. I was very aware in the moment that something was making that choice but that it wasn't my conscious thinking process doing the choosing.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

I would say that intention is a thought that came from somewhere trying to predict/control the future. For example, at the start of a yoga practice, instructors often ask you to set an intention. I often have a thought about being present in my body during the practice. Like decisions, that happens or it doesn't happen. There is probably research that says if you set the intention it is more likely to happen but my experience seems pretty random and most of the time, the intention doesn't happen.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

This is tied in with decisions. Free will assumes that we are conscious beings that make conscious choices throughout the day and throughout our lives that determine outcomes (fat/thin, this career or that one, etc). It's clear to me now that it is all causes-and-conditions and that while choices aren't pre-determined (in that someone (God?) thought them out beforehand), choices are driven by everything that came before including whatever innate preferences exist. For example, my first career was engineering. I had no idea when I was in high school what I wanted to do. My dad and I were playing a game, and he indicated I was really good at it and that required logic skills, so I should go in to computer science. So I did that. An "I" claimed that decision after the fact, but the decision just happened.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

I'm not sure how this is different from decisions?

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Oh God. I have spent much of my life trying to control things. Thinking that when it goes my way I'm in control and when it didn't go my way that I was out of control or doing something wrong or could have done something to get the outcome I wanted. Geez. What a trap. There is no control but just things unfolding how they unfold due to causes and conditions. Like a Rube-Goldberg machine.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I don't know. I have no idea what is really "out there." Maybe nothing - I am just consciousness in a vacuum. Maybe machines create the experience like in the Matrix. Given our science, I suspect consciousness (as in the self-aware universe) that physicists posit makes it all work. That makes more experiential sense now than it did before. That none of this is as it seems.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Nothing, really. If there is no I and it is just all unfolding, then what can I be responsible for? The question doesn't make sense. For example, if my husband does something that makes me angry and I yell at him, popular logic would say I have an anger problem that I am responsible for fixing. But who knows if I will work on that or not - I don't have a choice in the matter. I will or I won't. And even if I work on it, it will change or it won't. No one knows. I am the cook in the house, so you could say I am responsible for making dinner, but again, will I or won't I? We won't know until tonight comes around.

6) Anything to add?

I don't have total confidence that I have it. I think I do but I'm nervous to be set loose. Thoughts come - Maybe I am fooling myself? I'm aware those are all thoughts that came unbidden out of nowhere. That says I have it. But I have trouble listening to thoughts or tuning them out rather than thinking I am a thinker thinking them. I have lived my life mainly in my head (completely in the first 40 years!) and in the last 20 years, working on finding greater peace and truth. How can I know for sure? More thought! I am definitely further along the path. Stuff that didn't fully make sense (e.g. quantum physics telling us that which seems solid isn't) makes more complete sense now. Spiritual stuff makes more sense. But man, is it a huge departure from how I've lived my life!

Thanks for reading all of this. I'll be looking forward to whatever feedback you might have for me. Much appreciated!