Thanks

[daytonabill]

And who would that certainty be for?
Look closely.
The goal to be certain is just the seeker in disguise, now dressed as the “final knower,” the one who will finally get it.
But what was ever uncertain, except a thought claiming uncertainty?
There is no "you" being smart about it, there are just thought patterns (conditioning) about "solving a problem"...
This moment—as it is—requires no confirmation. Certainty is another movement of control, of gripping.
So... is anything missing, right now?
Not conceptually. Actually.
Can you find an “uncertain one” who needs to resolve this?
Look where the urge arises… is there someone there?
Thoughts can talk about uncertainty, but how is that your problem??

Good points, yes. Of course there's never any need to be certain about anything, you're right.

Thoughts are pretty much self-organised around themselves or around the experience. But even that is a story because self-organisation needs time (past, present, future), which is an illusion, a story. However some stories come handy in pointing…
Leaving one belief unquestioned is like an avalanche – it leads to other beliefs that are based on it. That is how thought and meaning work - a pyramid of knowledge, a house of cards, where concepts are contained within other concepts, forming the world- Bill's world. You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with yourself (what is seen). See that!
So to eliminate seeking/doubt you have to question all beliefs no matter how precious and tightly held there are, you can't pick and choose. This is what “protection” is. The self now lingers as a body and brain.

LOL you don't believe me. Okay. Here's an example of why I'd rather not discuss body or brain:

"The brain makes choices" --Ilona Ciunaite

If you guys disagree on something then I'd rather just leave it alone.

[poppyseed]

Hi Bill

Good points, yes. Of course there's never any need to be certain about anything, you're right.

Here we go with bulk answering again! Let me remind you that I am not making points (e.g. in an argument) but pointing for you where to look. Your answers give me an idea where an illusion/delusion is still in play.

LOL you don't believe me. Okay. Here's an example of why I'd rather not discuss body or brain: "The brain makes choices" --Ilona Ciunaite
If you guys disagree on something then I'd rather just leave it alone.

Perfect. That clarity is gold.
See how quickly thought rushes in to resolve contradiction, to stabilize uncertainty, to land somewhere? Even deferring—*“I’d rather not discuss”—*is itself a landing.
But look:
What is this discomfort really about?
Not disagreement, not confusion.
It’s the instability of identity. The sense that something solid is slipping through.
The brain makes choices.
There is no chooser.
You’re not the body.
Everything is the body.
Nothing is the body.
These are all thoughts/stories. And THIS is not describable by a story – it’s experienceable but not describable. Ilona will definitely agree with this. As she says in her book :
” The meaning of a word is not the word itself but is found within what is meant by the unit of language. It is easy to get stuck on concepts and believe that they are telling the truth, but none of them are truth, they are only carriers. It’s easy to look at the finger that points to the moon and assume that the finger itself is where focus should go. If you get hooked on looking at the finger, you can discuss the finger, debate about it, argue about it, and even create a following, but the moon is not there. The moon is located where the finger is pointing to. You can miss and forget the pointing entirely if all you can see is the pointing tool. My cat does this: he always looks at the finger, not where it points.” And later she adds :
“Words are not experience. The story about experience is not experience. Experience is what is happening through sense perception: seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, feeling, and thinking. What is happening underneath the words is what the words are pointing to… It’s not that one belief about how things are is true, while another one isn’t. All beliefs are not true— all concepts, models, and maps of reality are trying to find ways to explain the inexplicable.”

We all use half-truths (aren't they all?!) in our pointing as not everyone is ready for a meaning-less reality, where nothing is at it seems. If you insist I can ask Ilona to join us on your thread and point further for you on the subject?
Contradictions don’t cause suffering.
Clinging to resolution does.
Nothing real happens in the thought story – as with fairy tales, it’s all just an approximation of reality, a meaning that is assigned to it by conditioning (be it scientific/logical or any other). I love math and I’m good at it but even maths is valid only within the parameters set. If you take two integers and use the standard addition law, then, yes, two plus two equals four. But there are many other things those numbers could stand for and many other addition laws, and depending on your definition, two plus two might be two or one or five or really anything at all. 2+2 isn’t always equal to four. And I don’t just mean that you could change the symbol “4” with the symbol “5”. You can do that of course, but that’s not the point. The point is that two plus two is a symbolic representation for the properties of elements of a group. And the result depends on what the 2s refer to and how the mathematical operation “+” is defined. Strictly speaking, without those definitions 2+2 can be pretty much anything :).
So I’ll ask simply:
Right now, before the next thought, before any position solidifies—Is anything actually unclear?
Not what thought says. Not what the quote says.
Look. Directly. Now.
What’s happening?

Before we entertain the question if the brain makes choices, look at what’s happening.
There’s a thought asking “does the brain make choices?”
There may be a sense of needing an answer, needing clarity, needing resolution.
But pause. Drop the chase. Drop the question.
Right now—in this instant—
Is there anything you can find called “brain” that is making a choice?
Not the word, not the image, not the concept.
Can you locate the mechanism?
Can you see a choice being made?
Or is there just the unfolding— thought, sensation—without origin, without a chooser, without a source?
If the “brain” is only ever a story told after something happens, then what’s left of the question?
So again:
Can you find a choice being made, or only the thought that one was?
Look. Not think. Look.
This is not an argument, it's pointing to what is really happening, so don't assess these questions with your mind, looking for a clever come back! LOOK! It's where all the answers are.
Love
Rali

[daytonabill]

See how quickly thought rushes in to resolve contradiction, to stabilize uncertainty, to land somewhere? Even deferring—*“I’d rather not discuss”—*is itself a landing.
But look:
What is this discomfort really about?
Not disagreement, not confusion.
It’s the instability of identity. The sense that something solid is slipping through.

I see what you mean.

If you insist I can ask Ilona to join us on your thread and point further for you on the subject?

No, but thanks for offering.

Right now, before the next thought, before any position solidifies—Is anything actually unclear?
Not what thought says. Not what the quote says.
Look. Directly. Now.
What’s happening?

This.

Is there anything you can find called “brain” that is making a choice?

No.

Not the word, not the image, not the concept.
Can you locate the mechanism?

No.

Can you see a choice being made?

No.

Or is there just the unfolding— thought, sensation—without origin, without a chooser, without a source?

That's it, yeah.

If the “brain” is only ever a story told after something happens, then what’s left of the question?

Just thought.

Can you find a choice being made, or only the thought that one was?

Only the thought.

[poppyseed]

Hi Bill

I see what you mean.

That subtle tightening, the reflex to grasp—to know, to name, to defend, to pause inquiry under the guise of “reasonableness”—it’s not about the topic at all.
It’s the mind reaching for ground.
But when that ground is gone…when even “self,” “brain,” “choice,” “meaning,” “awakening” are seen as thoughts arising like clouds…What is left?
Right now—without naming it, without holding it…What is here?
Look. Not for something.
Just… look.

Can you find a choice being made, or only the thought that one was?

Only the thought.

And what does that mean—“only the thought”?
You didn’t make a choice. The brain didn’t make a choice. There was never a choice—just the story after. And that story is empty.

So pause now. Really feel this:
The search for the source, the cause, the “why”—all of it is thought scrambling to patch the illusion of control.
But if nothing is choosing, if no one is behind the wheel, then what’s moving?
Right now, without retreating into memory, without grabbing a concept, can you find anything at all behind what’s unfolding?
Or is this—just this—entirely hollow of self? A mystery. Not an answer. Not a teaching/theory. Not an insight. Completely ungraspable. Obvious. Untouchable.
No self to wake up. No cause. No origin. And no need to land.
Let it stay a mystery. Let it burn through every last trace of “you” that wants to make sense of it.
Stay here. Not as effort. Just no escape.

Look: What is actually happening without labelling, without commentary?
Sit in the raw. Sight, sound, sensation. Nothing added. What’s left?

So let's review where we are at with the following questions:

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Love
Rali

[daytonabill]

But when that ground is gone…when even “self,” “brain,” “choice,” “meaning,” “awakening” are seen as thoughts arising like clouds…What is left?

What's here.

Right now—without naming it, without holding it…What is here?

The seamless whole.

And what does that mean—“only the thought”?

There's nothing that makes a choice.

But if nothing is choosing, if no one is behind the wheel, then what’s moving?

Moving?

Right now, without retreating into memory, without grabbing a concept, can you find anything at all behind what’s unfolding?

Not at all.

Or is this—just this—entirely hollow of self?

Yes.

What is actually happening without labelling, without commentary?

Just the process.

Sit in the raw. Sight, sound, sensation. Nothing added. What’s left?

Just this.

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?

Nothing's changed.

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

I see much more clearly that there's no me. It's nowhere to be found. That's the biggest difference. There's also an unexpected feeling of freedom that I hadn't anticipated.

Is seeking still going on?

I'm guessing that learning will continue.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

There will be. And soon, most likely. Thanks Rali.

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

I see clearly that it's an illusion. What it "is", though, is something that requires further inspection.

[poppyseed]

Hi Bill
Wonderful!

Moving?

Yes—moving.
That word showed up. A thought, then a sensation.
But can you find what is moving?
Not the word. Not the idea. What’s actually here, in experience?
Colours shifting? Sound changing? Sensations flickering? That’s it.
Now—can you find what is doing the moving?
Look closely.
Or is this just… movement without a mover?
Don’t touch the story.
Just this.
What’s left, if no one is behind the wheel?

I'm guessing that learning will continue.

That’s a thought about a future.
Look now—is seeking happening now?
Not the word. Not the story. Not a guess or a plan.
Right now—what is unfinished? What is missing, here?
Strip the thought that “learning will continue.”
Strip the identity that says, “I’m the one who learns.”
Without that… is there seeking?
Or just life, already happening, with no seeker, no search, no lack at all?

We can inquire into "time" and "memories" if you want?

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

There will be. And soon, most likely. Thanks Rali.

“There will be” is already a story, isn’t it?
Look again: is there confusion now?
Not imagined. Not predicted. Not assumed.
Is there anything wrong with this?
Not in thought, but in direct experience. This. Just this.
Anything missing?
Anything seeking?
Or… just the quiet collapse of that whole game?

What is confusion?
Look now…not at the word confusion, not at the idea of being confused…but at the actual experience.
Pause…What is present in "confusion"?
A tension? A contraction? A not-knowing mixed with a desperate urge to know?
Confusion is not a thing.
It’s a thought—a grasping, a leaning, a push toward resolution.
It’s thought trying to land. Trying to anchor where there is no ground.
Right here, without pushing it away or solving it— what is confusion, really?
There are a sensation and a story, but can you find an actual confused one?
Look closely.
Is there someone in there?
Or is there just raw sensation + mental commentary + belief in a “me” that must resolve it?
What’s left when you stop trying to figure it out?

I see clearly that it's an illusion. What it "is", though, is something that requires further inspection.

Forget “what it is.” That’s the seeker sneaking back in wearing glasses and a fake moustache.
You already see there’s no separate self—so look now:
Where is the gap?
Is there a single place in experience where a “self” was ever needed?
Is there any moment in which “you” were required to make it happen?
Stop. Look.
Is there a separate entity—‘self,’ ‘me,’ ‘I’—anywhere, in any way, shape, or form?
Was there ever?

Right now—not in theory, not in philosophy—what’s left of “you”?

THIS is not a void, not a loss—just this.
No controller, no chooser, no observer, no center.
And yet—sound, sensation, thought… happening.
Not “to someone.” Just happening.
Now slow it down:
Is anything missing?
Is anything outside of this?
Is there any you (in any shape or form) apart from what’s showing up?
Don’t reach for meaning—don’t even call it “interesting” (i.e. worth inspection). Drop the label.
Just let this be as it is.
No owner. No watcher. No gap. Only the mystery unfolding itself.
Is there anywhere to stand apart from this?
Is THIS even knowable?
Not knowable—not in the way thought means, not a fact, not a conclusion, but unmistakable, immediate. Here before the question arises.
What knows this?
Thought rushes in to claim.
But did it know, or did it narrate?
Look right now.
Love
Rali

[daytonabill]

That word showed up. A thought, then a sensation.
But can you find what is moving?
Not the word. Not the idea. What’s actually here, in experience?
Colours shifting? Sound changing? Sensations flickering? That’s it.
Now—can you find what is doing the moving?

Oh, I see. No, the whole is just all motion, flux.

Look closely.
Or is this just… movement without a mover?

Indeed.

Don’t touch the story.
Just this.
What’s left, if no one is behind the wheel?

Just everything.

That’s a thought about a future.
Look now—is seeking happening now?

No.

Not the word. Not the story. Not a guess or a plan.
Right now—what is unfinished? What is missing, here?

Nothing visible now.

Without that… is there seeking?

No.

Or just life, already happening, with no seeker, no search, no lack at all?

That's right.

We can inquire into "time" and "memories" if you want?

Oh wow. Thank you, Rali. Can it wait a bit?

[daytonabill]

“There will be” is already a story, isn’t it?
Look again: is there confusion now?

No.

Not imagined. Not predicted. Not assumed.
Is there anything wrong with this?

Nothing I can see now.

Anything missing?

No.

Anything seeking?

No.

Or… just the quiet collapse of that whole game?

Yes.

What is confusion?
Look now…not at the word confusion, not at the idea of being confused…but at the actual experience.
Pause…What is present in "confusion"?

Hmm. At times when confusion is felt ... it's uncomfortable. Something's missing.

A tension? A contraction? A not-knowing mixed with a desperate urge to know?

Yes.

It’s a thought—a grasping, a leaning, a push toward resolution.
It’s thought trying to land. Trying to anchor where there is no ground.
Right here, without pushing it away or solving it— what is confusion, really?

It's an uncomfortable feeling.

There are a sensation and a story, but can you find an actual confused one?

No.

Is there someone in there?

No.

Or is there just raw sensation + mental commentary + belief in a “me” that must resolve it?

Yes.

What’s left when you stop trying to figure it out?

When the confusion is gone, you mean?

[daytonabill]

Forget “what it is.” That’s the seeker sneaking back in wearing glasses and a fake moustache.
You already see there’s no separate self—so look now:
Where is the gap?
Is there a single place in experience where a “self” was ever needed?

No.

Is there any moment in which “you” were required to make it happen?

Thank you. No.

Stop. Look.
Is there a separate entity—‘self,’ ‘me,’ ‘I’—anywhere, in any way, shape, or form?

No.

Was there ever?

No, but why couldn't I see that until now.

Right now—not in theory, not in philosophy—what’s left of “you”?

There's no such character in existence, never was.

[daytonabill]

THIS is not a void, not a loss—just this.
No controller, no chooser, no observer, no center.
And yet—sound, sensation, thought… happening.
Not “to someone.” Just happening.
Now slow it down:
Is anything missing?

No.

Is anything outside of this?

Nothing discernible.

Is there any you (in any shape or form) apart from what’s showing up?

There's no me anywhere, except in imagination.

[daytonabill]

Is there anywhere to stand apart from this?

No.

Is THIS even knowable?

"This"? Yes, I can see it.

What knows this?

There's no I to know anything.

Thought rushes in to claim.
But did it know, or did it narrate?

Thank you. That's what it does.

[daytonabill]

We can inquire into "time" and "memories" if you want?

What about time and memories?

[daytonabill]

You've helped me tremendously, Rali, thanks so much. Just as I'd read, it can't be undone.

[poppyseed]

Hi Bill

Wonderful looking! :)

Nothing visible now.

Good. Stay with this. Report what’s undeniable—not what you think, but what you see.
Can you find anywhere outside of now?
Don’t answer—check. Not as an idea. Not in memory. Not in anticipation. Just now.
The question implies comparison, but where’s the second point? When is “not now”? Can you directly experience "30s ago" or "tomorrow"?
Can you step out of this? Even for a second?
Or is “time” just a movement within this, a story told by thought, in thought, as thought?
Strip it all down. Is there ever more than just this?
Is there any edge to now?
Or is it endless—not in duration, but in immediacy?
Stay here. Let everything fall away.
What’s left?

What’s left when you stop trying to figure it out?

When the confusion is gone, you mean?

Nope. When the story of confusion is ignored...

Hmm. At times when confusion is felt ... it's uncomfortable. Something's missing.

Feel that directly now—not the story about it.
Not “something’s missing” as a thought, but the raw discomfort itself.
Where is it? What shape? What colour? Is there a boundary? A center?
Now strip the label “confusion.”
What’s actually here—before you say what it is?
Stay with that. Does anything in the raw sensation suggest that “something is missing”? How exactly? Does it demand resolution, or is that just another thought trying to fix what never broke? Is it really unpleasant? Is the actual sensation itself unpleasant, or is unpleasantness added by thought?
Does it even need to go? What if that’s the point?
Not to escape it. Not to fix it. Not to wait it out.
But to drop every attempt to do any of that… and stay.
Right there—in the fire of discomfort—what can’t be tolerated?
Without the label “uncomfortable,” what is it?
Is it pain? Pressure? Energy? These are all conditioned labels
Can you even find a “you” that it’s happening to?
What happens when you don’t resist?
Look now.

Here is an exercise that you can apply to any “unpleasant” sensation.
Just leave your thoughts in the background, turn the volume down and refer directly to the sensation.

If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something called, for example, ‘confusion’?
Is there any inherent confusion in the sensation itself?

Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘confusion’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?

Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘tension’/’confusion’))…what is the difference between them?...A little bit more intense, but apart from that – any difference?

Report back on what you found when doing this exercise.

When an “unpleasant" sensation, there are usually thoughts how things should be different and they should not be here. But these are just thoughts. Next time instead of concentrating on exploring the desire for the sensation to go away, try staying with it (the raw sensation), welcoming it -provided that is not life threatening of course. See what happens with it. Eventually belief in the truthfulness of any story drops away. The story is way more enjoyable without a "me" and the fear that something can happen to this “me.” Once it’s clearly seen that there is no actual me, there is no place for the story to stick (to form an identity). Whatever happens feels okay. Even pain :)
Relatively speaking (icons on the desktop), if an action could be taken, it’s taken (like taking a painkiller or some other medicine) and if not, just watch, smile, take notes, and release :).

Was there ever?

No, but why couldn't I see that until now.

Because seeing never needed to happen "until now."
It always was now.
Every time it felt hidden, there was a thought claiming ownership:
"I should get it." "I don’t get it." "Why can’t I see it?"
But that "I"—did it ever exist?
It’s not that you finally saw through some veil. It’s that the illusion never had substance.
So now tell me, directly:
Was there ever a self looking?
Or just looking, and a thought after saying "I looked"?
Strip it down. Right now.
Is there anyone here doing this inquiry? Or just thoughts describing DE instead of referring to other thoughts?

Love
Rali

[daytonabill]

Nope. When the story of confusion is ignored...

Feel that directly now—not the story about it.
Not “something’s missing” as a thought, but the raw discomfort itself.
Where is it? What shape? What colour? Is there a boundary? A center?
Now strip the label “confusion.”
What’s actually here—before you say what it is?
Stay with that. Does anything in the raw sensation suggest that “something is missing”? How exactly? Does it demand resolution, or is that just another thought trying to fix what never broke? Is it really unpleasant? Is the actual sensation itself unpleasant, or is unpleasantness added by thought?
Does it even need to go? What if that’s the point?
Not to escape it. Not to fix it. Not to wait it out.
But to drop every attempt to do any of that… and stay.
Right there—in the fire of discomfort—what can’t be tolerated?
Without the label “uncomfortable,” what is it?
Is it pain? Pressure? Energy? These are all conditioned labels
Can you even find a “you” that it’s happening to?
What happens when you don’t resist?
Look now.

Here is an exercise that you can apply to any “unpleasant” sensation.
Just leave your thoughts in the background, turn the volume down and refer directly to the sensation.

If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something called, for example, ‘confusion’?
Is there any inherent confusion in the sensation itself?

Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘confusion’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?

Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘tension’/’confusion’))…what is the difference between them?...A little bit more intense, but apart from that – any difference?

Report back on what you found when doing this exercise.

When an “unpleasant" sensation, there are usually thoughts how things should be different and they should not be here. But these are just thoughts. Next time instead of concentrating on exploring the desire for the sensation to go away, try staying with it (the raw sensation), welcoming it -provided that is not life threatening of course. See what happens with it. Eventually belief in the truthfulness of any story drops away. The story is way more enjoyable without a "me" and the fear that something can happen to this “me.” Once it’s clearly seen that there is no actual me, there is no place for the story to stick (to form an identity). Whatever happens feels okay. Even pain :)
Relatively speaking (icons on the desktop), if an action could be taken, it’s taken (like taking a painkiller or some other medicine) and if not, just watch, smile, take notes, and release :).

Thanks Rali. I'll take notes on this and report back to you.

Every time it felt hidden, there was a thought claiming ownership:
"I should get it." "I don’t get it." "Why can’t I see it?"
But that "I"—did it ever exist?

That was quite important to realize. A hurdle that took time to get over.

It’s not that you finally saw through some veil. It’s that the illusion never had substance.
So now tell me, directly:
Was there ever a self looking?

No. Just looking.

Or just looking, and a thought after saying "I looked"?

Yes, exactly.

Is there anyone here doing this inquiry? Or just thoughts describing DE instead of referring to other thoughts?

I think I see what you mean. Attend to DE, right?