Cesar Zapata

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

What happens in the moment when selfing arises? Can you describe a specific instance where responsibility/selfing was believed and then seen through?

What is the FELT difference between being caught in the selfing versus seeing it as just another arising phenomenon?

For example, the other day I had a thought about how I had talked to my son earlier in the day and doubt thoughts started to come up, thoughts like "have I been fair with him? Did I behave correctly?" and then guilt started to arise (some sensation in the heart and a feeling like wanting to cry) so I observed that, once the sensations moved through, I recognised all the narrative and the idea that I was responsible for how I behaved, but looking again, it's clear that things could only happen the way they happen, and that the story the narrative tells is made up, as I have no idea of all the things that actually influence life to unfold the way it does that does not appear in conciousness.
When selfing arises, it has a stronger feeling of me, contractedness and usually it's very clear there is a narrative, a point of view from which things are being looked at that is farther from the direct experience of the senses. So attention will not be in what is directly felt in the body, instead it focusses on the thoughts.

When the desire for something better arises, what does it actually feel like in direct experience—before any thought labels it?

Is there any sense of a “someone” still desiring, or is the desire just appearing? If there is a sense of someone, how exactly is that experienced?

Feels like a feeling of lack in the body. There is this "itch" somewhere that doesn't even feel like it's in the body, it's like an urge, a pull, it is felt in the sense field, but doesn't seem like it has a location. Maybe if I can feel anything it feels like it's behind the heart but not quite felt in the heart. Maybe like an energetic blanket.
Also a sensation of restlessness in the arms, like a pull to do something, eat, distract, etc.
There is still a sense of an observer, but the urges feels impersonal, like it's just something appearing in experience that is unwanted, not like something I want to do, it's more like something I want to get rid of/don't want to be with.

When that “adrift” feeling comes, what is actually present? Is it a story about meaning, or just a sensation?

What if there never was a point to any of this—no grand meaning, no finality—just this? What reactions come up?

It was a story, much of it related to awakening, feeling like there's nothing else to seek, but feeling like this is not good enough, and at the same time feeling powerless to change anything, looking directly at the disconfort and realising it's already here, and there's no way to avoid it.
With this there has been also a deeper acceptance and a feeling of okeyness with the unconfortable sensations, like, if there's nothing I can do about it, at least there is no fighting it, as it's futile, so I first experienced a wave of disconfort and after a little wide this acceptance and feeling it more directly came into play. It feels like a new miscle that is being precticed, initially there is resistence to the sensations and soon wanting to be closer to it and accept it.

[Elad]

Is NOW not good enough?
Is THIS not good enough?

My suggestion would be that if that is the experience, there is still unconscious identification with a belief happening - not only sense field phenomena. And that this would be good to work with in the shikantaza way suggested in last message.

In parallel, it might call for shadow work/psychotherapy to maybe soften and work through unconscious emotional layers, unconscious resistance and unconscious relational stuff and trauma and maybe more. The shikantaza style work will help with that also.

[Elad]

One more thing for now, regarding your example with your son. First, thank you for the openness.

I find it helpful to differentiate between healthy guilt (also called remorse) and neurotic or deluded guilt.

Deluded/neurotic guilt says "I am bad". It only darkens things, benefitting no one, including those one may have hurt, acctually making one less available for love and repair. This kind of guilt is often a defense and actually can cover genuine guilt, but also other feelings such as anger, sadness, desire, etc etc.

Healthy guilt/remorse, does not hold a belief that we are bad, but rather is a heartful and painful feeling we get, when we there is a percieved experience of having treated others hurtfully/unskillfuly. It is connected to internal sense of love and care, and comes naturally with the wish or impulse to repair, apologize, etc.

Same goes for anger.

Deluded anger says "they are all bad" and wants to destroy/hurt them.

Healthy anger does not hold a devaluing belief about the other, but is an energy that comes up when others do something that pains us or violates us and naturally comes with the wish or impulse to protect our bounderies or stand up to what is percieved as destructive action.

I have no idea what kind of guilt it was in the example with your son. I am mentioning this because sometimes people who see through self (or come to BELIEVE in that there is no self and no one responsible) end up mixing up these things and deny and devalue everything that has to do with these feelings and constructive action related to them. For this reason also it's really important to keep looking until insight clearly hits at a level that is beyond belief... Much psychological research shows that an internal locus of control (I can change things, it is up to me) is broadly healthier then an external locus of control (everything happens to me, beyond my control). This of course some kind of simplification, but it points again to the risk of adopting "no doer" as a belief.

It's all tricky because words at best point well, so when we use words like anger and guilt, we don't necessarily mean the same.

Hope this is helpful, if it doesn't feel relevant for you feel free to disregard it.

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

I had the same thought that it could be related to trauma.

I have been uncovering a lot of things in the last 2 years as I have been doing some form of therapy with a facilitator once a week a mix of IFS Nd Kiloby Inquiry type thing.

I have experienced in the last 2 or 3 weeks a deep sense of okeyness that I haven't in a really long time, like back to childhood. But I always get these waves of emotions coming up again every now and then and sometimes contractions which I take to be normal.

Also thank you for pointing that out in regards to the guilt. I have been learning about healthy and unhealthy emotions as well, for example in the past I could only recognise anger as a destructive energy, and I have heard similar to what you shared about guilt from Irene Lyon as well. But it's always good to get reminded again as the tendencies have been in the past to self deprecation/punishment for me.

Thank you again for supporting me in this process.

I will play around with the shikentasa, I have been doing some form of this a lot in the last couple of months, just not looking at the wall like you instructed, I just sit in the living room listen to some calming music and look at the objects around (lava lamp for the win :p ) but will try the way you mentioned without any stimulation.

Regards,

Cesar

[Elad]

Beautiful. Have a good feeling about your process. With you.

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

I did about 1h of that shikentaza yesterday and there's one thing that caught my attention so I decided to write.

I started to notice what you meantioned, with an intention to discern what is thought and what is direct senses. At some point the voice in the mind started to chat, and I kept my attention divided in both the thought space and sense fields (visual, hearing and sensations). Then what becomes more obvious is the "split" between the thoughts and the "non-thinking experience", and how the thoughts that are usually correlated with the "me" thoughts and "me" feelings start to get more distinct, with that, attention moves more towards direct experience. This is not something new to me, but I notice that in general I have a more active attention in the head/thought space than the direct sensations.

Then I relaxed and let the mind just go whereever it wants to go and I noticed a capacity to be aware even when the mind is somewhat "distracted" which seems to start to integrate other aspects of experience that usually are more uncouncious, and I start to see how or rather what it feels like to be "unconcious/distracted".

So I feel my curiosity telling me investigating more around this aspect of thought would be beneficial, and how distraction/condicioned views are forming this feeling of a different reality or the idea of having 2 distinct experiences, one that feels more "present" and the other more "unconcious".


Regards,

Cesar.

[Elad]

Beautiful, this is clear, continue with that and let me know what is seen.

Also: Notice if direct experience "of the sense fields"/ "of sensation" is fully fresh or actually when attention is "in sensation" it is actually in the internal models of how it is to be in sensation (thought).

Is it fully fresh? Is nothing missing?

Or is it like: Now again in the sensation, this known "effort"...

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

Also: Notice if direct experience "of the sense fields"/ "of sensation" is fully fresh or actually when attention is "in sensation" it is actually in the internal models of how it is to be in sensation (thought).

Is it fully fresh? Is nothing missing?

Or is it like: Now again in the sensation, this known "effort"...

If I understand you right, is what you mean is that internal model of conciousness you are talking about?
I notice that when practicing this and I can see all notions being challanged, even the notion of "I know what this sensation is" there is a "what is actually this 'sensation'". I think it's as fresh as I can experience, not sure if it get's fresher, but I can see this feeling of curiosity and actually looking at sensations as an unknown thing, like I look at what it is made of, but I notice I don't actually know what they are, or there might be a sense of their location in relation to the head, but I also notice where that is appearing has no location. When I look at the wall itself, there's a sense of "what is actually this that is appearing" I was going to mention that in my last message but thought it was irrelevant. After looking at a blank spot in the wall for some time, when I looked at the light swtich it seemed as if I had looked at that switch for the first time, and it didn't feel real, like physical. It looked like an augumented reality object, then I could see the perception trying to adjust and moving from solidity to that weird augumentation.

I get a sense that there is some form of filtering in the visual field, but I don't know how to look more directly at it. I also try to not strain, just let these things come and go and change, and not cling to any conclusions.

[cesarzapata]

By internal model of conciousness I mean this concept of mind, thoughts, sensations, conciousness. I can also notice that, and that it's all made up as well, even though there seems to be some form of framework in place, I can notice that this is also concepts. I can't actually know what mind is, or thought, or sensation, even though they have textures to them and can be recognised, I can see that everything seems like a single movement, that take certain shapes/perspectives. Sometimes that seems more aparent, especially in the visual field, like I can see a central focal point, but I can notice that the entire experience is one thing. Like while attention is in the visual field, there's a feeling of looking ahead, and when attention moves to the body, like it has moved from one place to another place that exists apart from the previous one, but it all seems like just a movement in conciousness taking different shapes.

[Elad]

Yes, this is sounds the right direction. Point being that that the mind can take anything, including "direct experience", or "the now", or "this", any pointer really and somehow appropriate it, give it a feel of triviality and not-enough-ness, and the tricky part can then be to see what is the subtle thought that is being believed, that gets in the way of the full wonder of "this". Because you seemed to express something akin to disappointment, disillusionment or dissatisfaction with "if this is awakening", it makes sense to look for such a subtle thought getting in the way. I would go for a two pronged approach on the one hand being on the look out for anything that "covers the wonder", and on the other working with shadow.

There is this video with Angelo, you probably saw it, where someone suddenly sees a subtle thought that has been getting in the way for her for decades: https://youtu.be/aP7Ce-ZDX18?si=VieiiuqYf00oWIFZ

Might be a good re-watch.

[cesarzapata]

Yeah, I have seen this before, and I have watched again, I think this is very valuable. Thank you.

[Elad]

How is life and how is inquiry Cesar?

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

Things are well.

There's always constant change here, and I feel that some understandings are integrating deeper.
Going back to living life normally is a really interesting experience, as old patterns start to arise and with this new perspective, it continues to integrate and downing on me some further implications.
For example, when life situations happen and old habits of trying to think my way through things is directly seen to be just imagination, like seeing more and more how my narratives and world views are completly made up.

My gut feel tells me there is a realisation slowly downing on me. Angelo posted a video a few days ago, about how
everything is Mind. That had an affect on me, I think the word Mind resonates a lot here, more than conciousness, I know they are just words, but there's something visceral about this pointing, "everything is mind" that I feel a bit of contraction
and maybe fear arising. Which tells me to go there. My intuition tells me I'm still holding on, fear of going in the complete unknown. Also another inquiry that is really calling me right now is "is anything real?".

Now I noticed something, I don't know if this is doubt, even though there is this certainty beyond doubt that there is only direct experience.
It's this feeling of the one looking, the one navigating through life. The one deepening insights. This is hard for me to put my finger on it. I'm not very clear.
It's like, I cannot sense there is a belief that there is a real me, like a separate me. I can clearly see there is no outside to "this", that the way experience is experienced, is as one single whole thing, it feels like there is just "awareness". There's no longer a sense that someone is outside of this looking. But it seems like some point of view, or some will that is navigating through life, or trying to get more clarity. Something that is still trying to gather experience.
I would describe this maybe as a subtler "me" but feels less personal, although still intimate. It's like it's this life
is hapenning to someone, even if this someone is not a story, is not anywhere, it's not found. Like an invisible being.

Not sure if I make sense.

Regards,

Cesar.

[Elad]

Beautiful...

Keep pursuing the questions and pointers that are alive... Like "everything is mind" and "is anything real?" and let me know what happens...

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

The process seems to continue here, I think I have experienced some level of doubt recently, and that appears as thoughts about still trying to find something, like I'm still not clear, I'm not awake yet, or there's something that is not clear, and that feeling of seeking, but I notice also that now it's a lot easier to see that's just thoughts. But I notice I get sometimes in this narrative for a while, and then at some point, it's noticed.

I feel like I'm still in this slowing down train, like learning to just be, I notice there is still tendencies of seeking, and realy giving up look for something else. But this seems to have many different flavours.

I also noticed a lot has moved through in the emotion spectrum, some deep shame, and that seems to have caused an opening, and open up to more feelings of self love and peace.

I have also been doing morning walks in nature, and that seems to be very grounding, when I'm in nature I notice so easily this all-pervading awareness, and the feeling of being is different, it's like it's not so centered, and easier to recognise and just move around in that recognition of not being a body walking in an environment, it has more this tone of the environment is appearing in me, feels less that separation of what the world is and I am in the center as a body.

So I have been playing around exploring more the experience of thoughts, like imagining something, and noticing the difference between that experience and when attention is not fully placed in thought.

Regards,

Cesar.