Looking for guidance on the pathless path

[GrilledChees]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The concept of self is created in the mind and is self-affirming. It is an automatic, reflexive attachment of "I" to thoughts, emotions, and beliefs. It's a shift away from direct experience into thought.

What are you looking for at LU?
I imagine this process like the sun melting an iceberg. The iceberg itself is the self structure. Most of it is below the surface (subconscious), and a small part is above the surface (conscious). The sun shines on the part that is visible and it slowly melts and reveals more. This is the process of life revealing the working of the mind. When mind-identification occurs, it's as if clouds block the sun and prevent melting.

I have a desire to do this work. I have read a lot, watched a lot, attended my first meditation retreat, and more. I have done a lot of work on my own. But I am seeing that this work is so much more profound in relationship with others on the path. Working with others has shown me so much I might never have realized on my own. It's like holding up a mirror where I can see the self structure more clearly, illuminating what was hidden. The sun shining on the iceberg, slowly melting.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
The ideal time and setting would be a one-on-one video conferencing call conversation at 6AM Central time (GMT -6:00) on a weekday at least once a week. As far as content, I imagine a conversation. Maybe I describe my internal internal experience in the moment and receive pointings at the discretion of the guide.

I did not expect this question. I expected to be told what a guided conversation would look like. Knowing nothing about what's typically done, this is what I imagine. Of course, I'm open to a range of possibilities, like conversing over text much more frequently or video calls at other days and times.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been seeking my whole life. I have held a profound sense that something is not right for a long, long time. I followed my curiosity on a variety of paths, but this current path started gaining momentum about two years ago. I hit a very low point in life. I came upon a meditation practice that I resonated with and experienced deeper peace, and at the same time realized how much background anxiety was here my whole life. I have continued to meditate since, with varying regularity. Almost a year ago I discovered Michael Singer and steeped myself in his books and lectures. I didn't realize at the time that I was doing a form of inquiry and noticed a significantly more positive affect over the next four months. Then I came upon Angelo DiLullo, whose teaching really resonated in me. I read his book and experimented with more inquiry, with mixed success. But through Angelo I learned of a lot of other teachers. I attended my first 7-day meditation retreat in December with Dan Schmidt of Awaken the World. This is where I started to see the value of working directly with others. At that retreat I learned about Dyads, which I continue to do weekly. I feel that there is a momentum that is increasing. Just in the last few weeks I have started to learn about the fetters, which is how I ended up here.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

Hi GrilledChees (love those! ) ,

First, and yes, I know I'm shouting:

THERE IS NO ICEBERG!

as you will soon see.

Now. I have not done any video guiding. I've preferred the freedom to post guidance at 3 am, if I'm up. I have been guiding here for about 7 years on this forum.

I'm wondering if you'd be open to a mix of video & forum?

If so, here's my usual introduction with some information & instructions.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Also, you write:

Knowing nothing about what's typically done, this is what I imagine.

Please read other posts here on the forum and begin reading "Gateless Gatecrashers " downloaded from Resources, Books here on this page. That will show you what we do. I use more pointers than a lot of guides do. My own guide used only one. There's lots of variety in styles.

Much love,

[Anastacia42]

Hope you see this in time.

This Sunday. 6 to 8 pm UTC +4 Mauritius Time

Deep looking is for you if you have an ongoing issue that makes you feel stuck, if you are looking for peace but cannot find it, if your heart is longing for something deep and meaningful, but nothing satisfies that longing.

Come to a meeting with a small group and we can explore together, giving space for tension to unwind.

You can use the old link, that you have or email me at admin@ilonaciunaite.com and I will send it to you.

See you there! (Ilona)
✨❤️✨

[GrilledChees]

Hi Stacy, my name is Ryan. Thank you for taking me under your wing in this process.

I read through the the disclaimer, FAQs, and the first account in Gateless Gatecrashers. No problems here.

I'm wondering if you'd be open to a mix of video & forum?

Yes, for sure. When I filled out the application I hadn't looked at the forum at all. I have since read a few accounts and understand the process a bit better. If we can make video work, that's great, but I would be fine if all of our communication was here on the forum.

How will life change?

I don't think life will change that much. At times I had fears of leaving my family or some other traumatic life change, and the truth is, I don't know, but whatever changes that come should flow with life as it currently is, not tear me away from it.

How will you change?

I won't fight the flow of life. I'll be able to surrender to what is at all times. I don't think I'll struggle as much with some of the issues that have plagued me throughout my life. Maybe I'll be able to get to the root of those problems. I will trust myself more. Doubt myself less. I will break out of my old habits. I'll be more confident.

What will be different?

I'm not sure. Maybe more peace, more equanimity. Less fear and anxiety. Maybe I won't have this sense of being a bad person. There will be less suffering in my life and the lives of my family.

What is missing?

I am having trouble answering this one. When I ask myself "what is missing in this moment" I can't find anything other than the mind offering ideas to see if anything sticks. Conversely, when I ask "what is wrong with this moment" I also can't seem to land on anything in particular. Just ideas.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Ryan. I am in USA central time, GMT -6:00.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

I wanted to speak to this. I have a tendency to ruminate on my responses in text communication. I have a hard time letting what's inside flow onto the screen. I'll second-guess, double back, type and retype. Then doubt creeps in and I'll delete whole paragraphs or start from scratch. I'm putting it out there as I see these tendencies arising in this context.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Ryan,

i am an hour earlier than you in Mountain Time near Boulder, CO, so your 6 am is 5 am to me. I get up pretty early, but usually not quite that early. And I work at a 40-hour per week job. We ask you to post daily or nearly daily to keep the momentum going, not just once a week. Let's do some basics here and if you still want a video meeting, we can. I would obviously prefer the weekend.

Your expectations and pretty reasonable. Nothing will change, but everything will be different. That will make sense later.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Answer that and then this:

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[GrilledChees]

Let's do some basics here and if you still want a video meeting, we can.

Let's stick with the forum for now. Thank you for your flexibility and offering your time. If I really feel like I need it, I'll bring it up.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

I am almost surprised that this doesn't sound strange. When I think of it in terms of self-inquiry and my direct experience, I know that when I look I will not find a separate self. But when I think in terms of physical reality, "I" and my body seem distinct from everyone else and every other physical object. I can't imagine how I am the same as the desk, chair, carpet, or other people.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

I'm grappling with this a little. I think I have some identification with having a good memory about certain things. I actually have a clear memory of putting my socks on this morning and could have told you they were blue. Other times I would not be so confident. But my mind is resistant to the suggestion that it might not remember something that it thinks it remembers.

Now, if the mind had to describe more information about the socks, like the kind of weave, a more detailed description of the color (is there a gradient? a pattern?) Then looking would be needed. Also, if it was challenged on the color and it had to take another look, it might cede that from a distance the sock looks blue, but close up there are clearly some white threads. So is it really just blue?

Also, the mind can see that if I went to a sock factory and asked them to recreate this one pair of socks and all I described to them was "blue", there's no way they'd make a pair identical to the ones I'm wearing now. Knowing my socks are blue doesn't actually encompass much about them.

Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)

This is a helpful distinction. Recalling past self-inquiry, I recognize that I would often label a sensation when I could recognize it. Fear, anxiety, bliss, nausea, etc.

Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Whew, this is tough. I think I could use some clarification here. I'm not sure what a thought is. Like what is it, exactly? Is a thought not the content of the thought? Is it energy? Does it take different forms? I think I experience thought as different things. Sometimes words, images, or movement of energy.

[Anastacia42]

Sounds good. We will work here.

Whew, this is tough. I think I could use some clarification here. I'm not sure what a thought is. Like what is it, exactly? Is a thought not the content of the thought? Is it energy? Does it take different forms? I think I experience thought as different things. Sometimes words, images, or movement of energy.

The pointers I give you will meet the requirement of making this much clearer. Let's start with this one:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[GrilledChees]

Stacy,

I have done this a few times since yesterday.

Eating dinner:
Seeing the food, table, family sitting there, simply= image/color
Smelling food, simply = smell
Feeling the food in the mouth, fork in hand, body in contact with the floor and chair, simply = sensation
Tasting the food, simply = taste
Hearing ambient noises, conversation, simply = sound
Thought about eating the food, simply = thought

Taking a shower:
Seeing the running water, simply = image/color
Hearing the water and circulating fan, simply = sound
Feeling the warmth of the water on the skin, simply = sensation
Tasting saliva, simply = taste
Smelling soap, simply = smell
Thought about taking a shower, simply = thought

Sitting at desk:
Seeing the office, simply = image/color
Hearing the computer fan, distant conversations, printer, simply = sound
Feeling hands clasped, bum and back on the chair, feet on the floor, simply = sensation
Tasting saliva, simply = taste
Smelling indistinct office air, simply = smell
Narration in the mind, simply = thought

[Anastacia42]

Good, yes.

Now try this:



Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?


Loving ,

[GrilledChees]

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

I am not sure. What is truth? How can I say that one is more true than the other? I might have some thoughts about the difference between the two, but not necessarily seeing how one is more elevated than the other in some way.

2. What is here without labels?

Thoughts and senses.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels take away from the true nature of the experience. Labels only have meaning when compared to past experiences of the mind. Therefore the label will have a unique meaning to each person. That is to say, labels encompass a bit of experience as interpreted by the mind and so are a thought. They are not an experience beyond the existence of the thought itself. So I would say that labels just describe experience.

However I would say that the act of labeling does affect the experience. Like the mind takes a slice of experience, makes some assumptions and simplifications, then stows it for future reference. Having a labeling thought and identifying with it does definitely affect experience. Then experience is not being fully experienced.

This is a tough question. I don't feel super confident about the answers above. Like the mind is trying to settle to a point of knowing but it's a spiral of questions that lead to more questions to infinity.

Labels do affect the experience because they make what could be unconscious thought, conscious. I can see clearly what the mind is saying, which creates a gap.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

It was hard to recall the difference so I did the exercise in a slightly different way. Doing the first half a few times, then switching to the second half, and back a forth a few times. There was a feeling of constriction in the head when doing the first half.

[Anastacia42]

Okay, let's look at some of this.

#2 is good, yes.

#4

There was a feeling of constriction in the head when doing the first half.

Yes.

Let's look at truth & lies.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you feel when you omitted "I.

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[GrilledChees]

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

I am recalling little lies I'll tell my daughter to help her feel better in the moment.

What is found?

There's a feeling of constriction in the chest, neck, gut, and head. I can recall an "icky" feeling that I always ignored. Something was off, but I was ignoring it.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.
Do you see that?

Are constriction and expansion not also labels? "peaceful" is passive while "constriction/expansion" are active or dynamic. Is that the difference?

Another scenario: The kids have been put to bed and there's a mess in the house. I will tell myself multiple lies to avoid the discomfort/resistance to approaching the work that needs to be done. There will be a contraction in the body and the rest of the evening will be spent in diversion. However, approaching the work and giving space for the resistance/discomfort that is there, energy and expansion arise.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Noticing the lie and truth feelings will help you to notice when you lie that there is a "self," and when the truth dawns as an expansive feeling, you will be more likely to recognize it.

Are constriction and expansion not also labels? "peaceful" is passive while "constriction/expansion" are active or dynamic. Is that the difference?

No, there is no difference, really.

ALL words are lies.

Just made up labels. We have chosen a few to use, in order to communicate, but we want to focus on the 5 senses much more than thoughts/words. We want you to LOOK, not think. Thinking will never get you where you want to go. (Not that you "go" anywhere. There is no "you." :) )
[/color]

Here is an exercise that makes it clear that labels are not the things they refer to. They are merely the content of thought that we made up.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with something called "reality." But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like "good" and "bad" are inherent characteristics of "things." But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?



Loving,

[GrilledChees]

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

There is a recognition of the word and a feeling of dissonance. Quickly it's recognized the color and label don't match.

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

The mind is stumped by this. The mind wonders what is experience. It can't really grasp it.

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

The mind is throwing its proverbial hands in the air. How is it supposed to know? There's a sense that by giving up it doesn't have to inquire further.

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Ah, yes. What's here now is image/color. The mind is accustomed to making meaning of labels and that they correspond to reality. The mind can accept that the image and label don't have to match. But the process of taking labels and correlating them to something is pretty automatic and subconscious.

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

Green is just a word label on the experience of the red color. And seeing a word is a label on the experience of certain images labeled as letters. And labeling a letter is giving meaning to a certain shapes of lines. And giving certain meaning to an arrangement of lines requires a label of "line" and a differentiation between the foreground and background. Maybe there are other layers to it as well, but eventually you get down to just seeing.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Ah, shit. This is a whole other layer cake of meaning. There is a correlation in the mind between the color red and the label "bad". Bad has its own meaning in the mind. It's associated with a feeling of constriction. There's a sense that there's a lot of association in the past with that label, and it's mostly unconscious.

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The mind is very good at connecting the label and color and extremely quickly running it through a host of assumptions, distillations of experience, hunches, etc. from the past. It's dissonant to correlate the color with "good", and less dissonant to associate with "bad".