Cesar Zapata

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

I only had the opportunity to do this this morning.

This exercise was quite powerful. At the end of the exercise walking around the corridor was really funny. I can see there is a very strong tendency to interpret the sensation of the face with the image I see in the mirror, even when not looking in the mirror there's a constant referring back to the sensations and a layer of thought imagining what I am looking like, like representing maybe the mood of the face or things like that.

Looking at the mirror I could notice as well the mind trying to work out/re-map reality and perceptions trying to find a place to land. Feels like perceptions are more fluid now, so I can see them change like trying to re-understand the sense of depth, and what the sensations feeling in the body are, and sometimes that little feeling of having no ground or legs, or back.

I'll try to look more into this, I find it fascinating.

Thank you for your help and guidance.

Cesar

[Elad]

Hi Elad.

I only had the opportunity to do this this morning.

This exercise was quite powerful. At the end of the exercise walking around the corridor was really funny. I can see there is a very strong tendency to interpret the sensation of the face with the image I see in the mirror, even when not looking in the mirror there's a constant referring back to the sensations and a layer of thought imagining what I am looking like, like representing maybe the mood of the face or things like that.

Looking at the mirror I could notice as well the mind trying to work out/re-map reality and perceptions trying to find a place to land. Feels like perceptions are more fluid now, so I can see them change like trying to re-understand the sense of depth, and what the sensations feeling in the body are, and sometimes that little feeling of having no ground or legs, or back.

I'll try to look more into this, I find it fascinating.

Thank you for your help and guidance.

Cesar

Beautiful

Here is another exercise to continue this exploration. Specifically with sight, which often is the sense that is most "entangled" with thought/interpretation...



Sight-Sensation Correlation Exercise



1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate...

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand). But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

You can repeat the exercise with all of body parts. For the head you can use a mirror.

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

Sorry this has taken so long. I did the exercise the first couple of days then life got busier and didnt manage to respond. I'll follow your initial advice from now on of responding even if it's not a very elaborate response at first.

I see what you mean by :

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

When I close my eyes, I feel thoughts/perceptions trying to form around the sensation, a very loose mind map or location, but if I relax thinking, then sensations lose shape completly, it's as if there was a curtin of sensation felt but not shaped.
When I open my eyes there is tendency of attributing a shape to sensations again, I can still see what I assume is what you are talking about, that the sensation appears together with image, but they are perceived separatly. Sometimes it feels like they are not linked, but then when there is a spasm on the hand, I can see a thought/perception shaping light a flash though imagining that the spasm is a nerve in the hand, which is really a concept as there are no nerves in the visual field and I cant possibly know what that sensation is.

I also notice when I move attention to the hand with my eyes closed, there's a sensation that seems to be the eyes in the head moving down, or pointing to where the hand is assumed to be if I openned my eyes, once that thought is relaxed then that sense of looking straight ahead and still feeling the cloud of sensations appear again.

It seems like a complex show of mapping sensation to image/thought.

Another thing that started to come more frequently to my perception after these last 2 exercises, is that there is still a strong feeling of a world out there, and I can see that in direct experience there is no inside and outside, so no outside object as well, although that's not an on-going perception in my experience, I can clearly see that how the visual field appears, and senstaions is not localised anywhere, and that I have never experienced any objects outside in my entire life. There has never been anything experienced outside of this. But there's a really sticky desire to believe the world cannot only exist in my experience only, there must be something outside of this experience.

Regards,

Cesar.

[Elad]

Great investigating here.

But there's a really sticky desire to believe the world cannot only exist in my experience only, there must be something outside of this experience.

What if you don't hold on to a view that "it is only in your experience" and also don't hold on to a view that "it is outside", then what is there?


Also do/re-do these exercises. Do as many as you wish each day and let me know what is seen. Make sure you look freshly and not from what has been concluded before.



Simple Individual Exercises

1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?
It's always interesting to see the difference between thought content and what really happens.
“Can you see a self making the body leave the bed?”

2. 'On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.' Dead simple.

3. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

4. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

5. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

6. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

7. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

8. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on
​Ask the client to go to another room, pick a random object and bring it back to the
computer. Ask questions to why they decided to choose that object.
breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?


9. What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

I have been exploring controll quite a bit this last week with the exercises you have shared.

What if you don't hold on to a view that "it is only in your experience" and also don't hold on to a view that "it is outside", then what is there?

This makes total sense, just the experience of what is directly here.

1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?
It's always interesting to see the difference between thought content and what really happens.
“Can you see a self making the body leave the bed?”

2. 'On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.' Dead simple.

3. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

4. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

5. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

6. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

7. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

8. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on
​Ask the client to go to another room, pick a random object and bring it back to the
computer. Ask questions to why they decided to choose that object.
breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?


9. What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?

The more I look at control using these, I notice that things are just happening, there's nothing controlling, there is just the "sensation" of control, usually some bodily feeling that seems to suggest a will.

I'm not sure what to comunicate how things are unfolding here right now. It seems that these past couple of days, there has been a lot of being in the head, but also less desire or effort to look/investigate. I think there are some subtle things changing, like noticing that however experience is showing up, there's nothing I can do about it, so stop struggling with it. And changing the way I relate to life, like this spiritual search seems to be losing it's drive and accepting that there's nothing to do, or losing the desire for things to be different.

Not in a apathic way, I have actually been quite fine, just normal, but I think there's something getting tired of this persuite and realising I can't make anything happen.

There is still looking sometimes with curiosity, sometimes it just comes on it's own, the other day I also started to have some glimpses and see how there is no internal world and external, that all distance and separation are happening in the same place, thoughts appear in the same place as sound, and this type of thing.

Cesar.

[Elad]

Cesar, read your own words carefully:

“There has been a lot of being in the head, but also less desire or effort to look/investigate.”
“This spiritual search seems to be losing its drive.”
“There’s nothing I can do about experience, so stop struggling with it.”
“Seeing there is no internal world and external, that all distance and separation are happening in the same place.”

Is anything missing?


“I think there's something getting tired of this pursuit and realizing I can't make anything happen.”

Yes. The seeking energy is wearing out because there is nothing left to seek. There never was. What happens if you let go completely of the idea that anything needs to change?

Right now, take one honest, direct look:

Is there a ‘you’ who was ever looking?
Was there ever a ‘someone’ trying to find truth?
Or was there just the thought of a ‘someone’ arising and being believed?

Sit quietly for a moment. Don’t go to the mind. Don’t analyze. Look.

Is there a separate Cesar anywhere? Was there ever?

Is anything not clear and needs to be sought?

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

Right now, take one honest, direct look:

Is there a ‘you’ who was ever looking?
Was there ever a ‘someone’ trying to find truth?
Or was there just the thought of a ‘someone’ arising and being believed?

Sit quietly for a moment. Don’t go to the mind. Don’t analyze. Look.

Is there a separate Cesar anywhere? Was there ever?

I think this is clear now. There was never a person here, I can see clearly there are processes going on, and these seem to be slowing down. The intuition to just stop. And there has been deep moments of piece to just sit and relax.
The mental processes that take part of attention and were commonly referd to as Me/Cesar are seen more clearly now, and seem to be clarifying more and more.

Is anything not clear and needs to be sought?

There's no longer any feeling of having to figure something out, it seems just a natural process of engaging life and looking at things for what they are. The old patterns and tendencies still happen, but I can see it seems like just a natural process of unfolding.


Cesar.

[Elad]

Hi Cesar, read your own words again:

“There was never a person here.”
“The mental processes that were referred to as ‘me’ are just unfolding naturally.”
“There’s no longer any feeling of having to figure something out.”

This is it. There is nothing more to get.

Now, let’s check one last thing:

Is there any subtle belief that something is incomplete? (when you write "I think" this is clear rather then "this is clear", why? Is the seeing direct experience or an interpretation?)

Is there any expectation of how life should feel after seeing this?

Because if not, then that’s it. No loose ends. No self. Just life, happening.

Of course discovering will continue, shadow work will continue, without seeking and straining.

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

Is there any subtle belief that something is incomplete? (when you write "I think" this is clear rather then "this is clear", why? Is the seeing direct experience or an interpretation?)

Is there any expectation of how life should feel after seeing this?

I sat in my living room yesterday and looked without considering any previous opinion I had about awakening, just seeing as clear as I could, and there was another level of rawness/directness that arose, I can say I can see clearly there is no self, no person doing this, there is just life as it always has been, and a process of recognising more and more of the misconceptions that have previously been believed.

I feel now I just need to allow intuition guide and continue to engage in a soft way as this process unfolds. Relaxation and stillness has been quite present in my nights, no need to practice, just relax and allow the looking naturally, things start to unfold and be revealed that way it seems.

Thank you so much for being a part of this process with me Elad. I truly appreciate you.

Cesar

[Elad]

That's it Cesar, beautiful! I will now send you the checkpoint quesitons that we give in LU, when towards the end of the process. Your responses migh evoke a little more exchange between us, and if I have nothing to ask, I will let some other guides look too, who also might have deepening questions. This is the last part of the LU process. Take all the time you want with these questions, no timeline :) You have answered most if not all of these questions before in one way or another. Allow beginners mind, take it as an opportunity to look and discover again, and answer freshly.... And please answer all in one message, quoting each question separately and answering below, for ease of reading for other guides.




1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

8) Anything to add?
[/quote]

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

Here are the answers to the questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

What it is: the illusion seems to be a bundle of different experiences, that with the capacity of cognition, memory, creating concepts in thoughts, then strings together these experiences in a way to seem a single thing. The mind also has the hability to augument the senses with layers of interpretation which seem to give even further reality to the sense fields making it feel incredibly real. The very core idea that there is a person in the center of it, and how the world is being perceived is part of this illusion and was unoticed for a long time. There also seems to be unconcious things that go on, I cannot be sure but as we
break beliefs there's usually some form of emotional processing that happens, so emotions seem to also be strung together in all this making is sometimes really hard to question something that feels viscerally real even though when investigated we cannot find any proof of it.
When it starts: in my experience, once some layers of this start to peel off, this just seems to come and go on it's own. So far I could not recognise patterns of when it starts or stops, and even if I did, to me it seems there is no real way to know, it sometimes happens, and sometimes it doesn't. The mechanism though seems to be that attention or focus, get's narrowed to a certain view, and then life starts to be lived via that filter/narrative until it's no longer. It just seem to happen naturally for me, it seems to be a conditioned habbit that is slowly losing it's strength and a new habbit is arising to move attention out of thoughts.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It seems an on-going integration is taking place now, the concepts of world/reality starts to be deconstructed, the relationship with ideas, thoughts and concepts start to change.
In summary life is still experienced in the exact same way. New experience continues to arise, the contents of experience are never the same, keeps changing.
There seems to be a lot of changes going on in relative terms especially "internally", like this re-arranging of ideas and concepts, but ultimatly it's seen that experience was never a continuous thing, it was always changing, there was just this tendency to create a timeline to make things seem constant and known.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

To me it seems like something very progressive is taking place, as if I was looking at a blurry image, and little smudges at a time start to clarify, then blur again, then some understanding starts to arise, then confusion, then some more is revealed of the picture, and continue to unfold in this cycle.
From a relative perspective, it can seem like some particular events made a difference, but now it's seen that these are all interpretations of certain experiences that happened.
I have a feeling that a shift took place a long time ago, and it was so subtle that it was completly overlooked, and only now I can see the relevance of it, like a little change in steer that on the long run changed completly the course of things. But it would be impossible for me to know.
What has been constant in my practices is allowing emotional release feeling more and more emotions that come up, challenging beliefs, and inquiry.
There has been so many moments that seemed like shifts that it's hard to tell how this happened, sometimes this thought even pops up in my mind, like "how did I get here, how did this happen to me?".
Even though I was seeking it, at the same time it seems like the seeking brought me here, and at the sme time it didn't.
I think the last shift that felt most significant, and I notice a trend on this, was letting go, deeper and deeper,
and for me it seems like only life was able to make that happen for me, because getting sick in christmas time forcing me
to drop all practice and having a massive surge of unexpected emotions that I had no control over and couldn't understand
where they were comming from, seemed like a key turning point to see I was not in control of this process or anything at all.
So I would probably say the feeling of control seems to be the last one that started to disolve.
Another thing that comes to mind, is realising that this flip/flop in experience, is just two aspects arising,
this feeling of time and narrative. When doing deep sited investigation, insights seem clear, and when in movement living daily life it's not clear.
Being able to come back to the moment and look at what is going on now has helped see that it's all just an illusion/perceptions trick.
And seeing through the belief that this had to change and that experience would feel a certain way when we wake up was also key.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

Decision: decisions still happens, there are decisions being made, but I cannot find who or what makes them.
If I look really close, I can only find sensations, thoughts, and a feeling of agency, but cannot find anything behind it.
I also cannot know what decision will be made.

free will: free will seems like an idea to me. Seems like the same idea of being able to make decisions.
In one level, when there is a sense of being someone, there is this apparent hability to make choices, but that is entirely dependent of believing the idea that there is separation, that there is someone here making choices. There is life happening as it is happening, if there is no need to claim who is chosing, that question doesnt even arise. If there are choices being made, that's what is happening, but ultimatly what is a choice if not another compartimentalization of a single aspect
of experience, into a concept. I don't say I am chosing to see, but I say I am chosing to make a certain movement. There is movement happening, there is claiming of ownership of the movement, where is the one claiming it? I cannot choose what arises in my experience, I cannot choose to suddlenly just be in another dimention. I cannot choose to stop existing.

control: I think the both arguments above covers this as well, it's all the same ilusion to me.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

I think this will forever stay a mistery :D
That is, if when you say "things happen"? You are talking about the fact that "there is" something rather than "there isn't anything".
That there is an experience being known, that there is "knowing" at all. Knowing/experiencing/appearances.
From that perspective, I just see there is an existence, but impossible to know "what" or "how" it's possible or happening.

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Responsibility seems directly attached to the idea of agency as well.
On relative/practical/conventional terms, I can say or behave like I am responsible to raise my son. But if I have no control of anything how can I be responsible? Life doesnt need me maintaining it to continue to happen, it's gonna happen either way. I can take responsibility for my actions but who is responsible to make that decision to do so? The same idea of agency/decisions come into question.

8) Anything to add?

It was very helpful to me as I have had very subtle shifts, which seems very different from all the non-duality content I have consumed, like internet videos, books, etc. And I consumed a lot, and questioning these ideas was helpful.
I know the last place I wanted to look into is the beliefs I had created about this process, and sometimes it can be deflating, and scrary, I got attached to the struggle, or the idea that this process needs to take a life time, or that I needed to go through a lot more before I am ready and all sorts of things in that line.
It has been very helpful for me that Elad asked me a few times during the guidance if there were beliefs about this process and doubt.
This was very relevant for me, to questions even the ideas of practice.

[Elad]

Hi Cesar, lots of sincerity and clarity here, you are attending to direct experience and differentiating that from expectations and wishes, that is key!

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

Decision: decisions still happens, there are decisions being made, but I cannot find who or what makes them.
If I look really close, I can only find sensations, thoughts, and a feeling of agency, but cannot find anything behind it.
I also cannot know what decision will be made.

free will: free will seems like an idea to me. Seems like the same idea of being able to make decisions.
In one level, when there is a sense of being someone, there is this apparent hability to make choices, but that is entirely dependent of believing the idea that there is separation, that there is someone here making choices. There is life happening as it is happening, if there is no need to claim who is chosing, that question doesnt even arise. If there are choices being made, that's what is happening, but ultimatly what is a choice if not another compartimentalization of a single aspect
of experience, into a concept. I don't say I am chosing to see, but I say I am chosing to make a certain movement. There is movement happening, there is claiming of ownership of the movement, where is the one claiming it? I cannot choose what arises in my experience, I cannot choose to suddlenly just be in another dimention. I cannot choose to stop existing.

control: I think the both arguments above covers this as well, it's all the same ilusion to me.

Your answers are clear: decision happens, but no one is making it. Free will is just an idea. The recognition that claiming ownership over movement is a thought-based illusion is well seen.

The deepening invitation here: Look even closer at micro-decisions—like the choice to scratch an itch, move a finger, or look at an object. Is there even a “moment” when a decision is made? Or does movement just arise?

You already see that control is an illusion, but keep playing with this in daily life: Is there ever a moment where control is actually ultimately happening? Beyond the conventional use of language where "we can control lifting the hand but not stop the beating of the heart".

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Responsibility seems directly attached to the idea of agency as well.
On relative/practical/conventional terms, I can say or behave like I am responsible to raise my son. But if I have no control of anything how can I be responsible? Life doesnt need me maintaining it to continue to happen, it's gonna happen either way. I can take responsibility for my actions but who is responsible to make that decision to do so? The same idea of agency/decisions come into question.

This is clear but could sound a little like a logical deduction rather than direct experience. Please look how it FEELS to say "I have no responsibly", what happens emotionally? Sit with that, see what happens...

8) Anything to add?

It was very helpful to me as I have had very subtle shifts, which seems very different from all the non-duality content I have consumed, like internet videos, books, etc. And I consumed a lot, and questioning these ideas was helpful.
I know the last place I wanted to look into is the beliefs I had created about this process, and sometimes it can be deflating, and scrary, I got attached to the struggle, or the idea that this process needs to take a life time, or that I needed to go through a lot more before I am ready and all sorts of things in that line.
It has been very helpful for me that Elad asked me a few times during the guidance if there were beliefs about this process and doubt.
This was very relevant for me, to questions even the ideas of practice.

You mention that subtle shifts are different from what’s often presented in nonduality content. This is valuable because expectations often create unnecessary seeking. The recognition that beliefs about the process were also a trap is significant.


So: Is awakening here now, is this it? If hesitation arises, what is hesitating?

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

I have been exploring this:

This is clear but could sound a little like a logical deduction rather than direct experience. Please look how it FEELS to say "I have no responsibly", what happens emotionally? Sit with that, see what happens.

The feeling of responsibility still arises, and if unnoticed believed. I see there is still a lot of selfing going on, but on investigation the stories can be seen to have no truth in them.

So: Is awakening here now, is this it? If hesitation arises, what is hesitating?

It is the only place and it is everything. Even the desire for something better that has driven this search.
There is more acceptance of what is now when it feels uncomfortable as well, as it's seen to be inescapable.
In this system it's been a difficult pill to swallow but necessary to start a movement towards stopping avoiding and future thinking and looking at what is really here, as it is all that is available.
There was so much hope for feeling better and wanting more, this is still being processed I think, many emotions and adjustments going on. That sense of being adrift and a bit pointless as there has been so much pursuit of an idea of something else.

Regards,

Cesar

[Elad]

Dear Cesar,

There is a great sincerity here. That is key. I have a sense that more work, more looking would help:

1) Selfing Still Arising – You mentioned, “The feeling of responsibility still arises, and if unnoticed, believed.”

What happens in the moment when selfing arises? Can you describe a specific instance where responsibility/selfing was believed and then seen through?

What is the FELT difference between being caught in the selfing versus seeing it as just another arising phenomenon?

2) Awakening Here Now? – You wrote, “It is the only place and it is everything. Even the desire for something better that has driven this search.”

When the desire for something better arises, what does it actually feel like in direct experience—before any thought labels it?

Is there any sense of a “someone” still desiring, or is the desire just appearing? If there is a sense of someone, how exactly is that experienced?


3) Residual Seeking & Meaninglessness – You said, “That sense of being adrift and a bit pointless as there has been so much pursuit of an idea of something else.”

When that “adrift” feeling comes, what is actually present? Is it a story about meaning, or just a sensation?

What if there never was a point to any of this—no grand meaning, no finality—just this? What reactions come up?


The key here is to bring the inquiry back to the moment, not to analyze. Let the questions trigger direct looking rather than answers based on thoughts, analysis, convictions and past experiences.

[Elad]

It came up here to suggest you supplement that with "shikantaza style" practice. Just sit facing a wall, back straight and relaxed, eyes open and soft. And nothing else, experience what is. And when thoughts come up - especially thoughts that tell you how the practice is going, or how this practice or life is in general, or what presence is "for you" - notice that these are thoughts, not the direct experience. Work with that for a while and let me know what is experienced and discovered.