Breaking the selfing pattern

[Ovid]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding of 'self' is the idea that there is some concrete "thing" that owns all of experience, makes decisions, and controls the body and the thoughts. That "thing" is refered to when I use the words "I", "me", "mine".

What are you looking for at LU?
I read Gateless Gatecrashers about a year ago and have been doing inquiry since then. I feel like the sense of self has loosened somewhat but it's still there, no matter how much I look. I never find a self, and yet the identification continues. Now I am looking for an LU guide as it seems clear to me that I cannot do this alone.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Someone who can help me to see that there really is no self; not just as a fact of that moment but as a deep knowledge that I can accept permanently.

From having read other people's threads I expect regular communication and daily tasks, which I am committed to performing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I meditate weekly at a Zen Center. I do inquiry daily, usually sitting at home or when I'm out walking. I've mostly been getting my teachings from Simply the Seen and Angelo Dilullo.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ovid, vince here.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Someone who can help me to see that there really is no self; not just as a fact of that moment but as a deep knowledge that I can accept permanently.

You're asking for deep, lasting clarity—not just a passing realization but something undeniable, something that sticks. The key isn't in grasping a concept but in seeing, directly, that the self was never there to begin with.

Right now, where is "you"? Not as a thought, not as an idea, but in direct, raw experience? Look carefully. Don't settle for an intellectual answer.
Where is this "I" that needs to accept anything?
What is holding on?
Look now.

vince

[Ovid]

Hello Vince. Thank you for taking time out of your day to help me.

Right now, where is "you"? Not as a thought, not as an idea, but in direct, raw experience? Look carefully. Don't settle for an intellectual answer.

There isn't "me" here - that much is clear. There are just sensations, thoughts and movement.

Where is this "I" that needs to accept anything?
What is holding on?
Look now.

When I look, there is nothing that is holding on.
Holding on isn't even a "thing" that can happen. There are thoughts about holding on, thoughts blaming "me" for not doing a good enough job at seeing through this.

There isn't an "I" that needs to accept anything either. In my direct experience there aren't any conditions for acceptance - all "conditions" are just more thought-content.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ovid, it looks like you are already 'home', but lets check if there are any areas that need cleaning up.
Answer from your current experience. Be a bit concise.
Do you think that an inherently independent self exists?
Do you feel that an inherently independent self exists?
Is there an actual past or future?
How do you relate to your thoughts?
How do you relate to your emotions?
Has your relationship to other people changed?
How do you react when conflict/ problems arise?
what is your relationship to life?
Are there doubts? if so please describe them.
If you are not the separate self who/what are you?

Thoughts, concerns, comments ?

with love

vince

[Ovid]

Hi vince,

I got your message today. Sorry for not responding sooner.

I am replying from instinct here, the first answer that comes up. I can reason myself into seeing things differently, but as soon as I let go of the inquiry this is what my beliefs default to.

Do you think that an inherently independent self exists?

Not when I sit down and think about it, no.

Do you feel that an inherently independent self exists?

Yes. I feel and behave like that whenever I'm not thinking about the existence about the self.

Is there an actual past or future?

Yes. I can find reasons for why they don't exist (e.g. "the past is just a thought"), but as soon as I let go of that I think and behave as if there is a past and future. It seems that past and future exist whether I believe in it or not.

How do you relate to your thoughts?

The thoughts are representative of 'me'.

How do you relate to your emotions?

They are my emotions. They are representative of what 'I' feel.

Has your relationship to other people changed?

I'm a bit more patient with other people.

How do you react when conflict/ problems arise?

I often take them personally, though if I am very aware and present, I'll do it less so than before.

what is your relationship to life?

I don't quite understand this question, but life seems like a struggle where I have to achieve things.

Are there doubts? if so please describe them.

I doubt that I'll ever permanently see through self.

If you are not the separate self who/what are you?

I don't know. Awareness maybe?

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ovid,

Do you think that an inherently independent self exists?

Not when I sit down and think about it, no.

Ok, let's examine this further.
To start with, thoughts have no validity. They are stories. They may or may not reflect accuracy, but that is not what we are looking for here.
Thoughts that describe experience are ok, but no deductive conclusions.
So, can you find an actual self that is in control of outcomes?
i hasten to add that a SENSE of self will be experienced. Well, not actually. Sensations will happen that the mind will say is a self, so without the logical conclusion, can those sensations be anything more than sensations?

Yes. I feel and behave like that whenever I'm not thinking about the existence about the self.

If it were possible (it is) for feeling and behaviour to happen for other reasons, would you still conclude that it is a self behind it?

I think and behave as if there is a past and future. It seems that past and future exist whether I believe in it or not.

Thinking and behaving AS IF there is a past and future is fine. It has practical uses. How does this make them actual?

The thoughts are representative of 'me'.

If there were no 'you', is it possible that thoughts would reflect circumstances. (both external and historical - what is learned and stored in the brain.)

I'm a bit more patient with other people.

I get what you are saying as a general thing, but we need to be more specific to investigate this.
Are you saying that you are less opinionated (judgy) when interacting with others?

I often take them personally, though if I am very aware and present, I'll do it less so than before.

So what has changed?

life seems like a struggle where I have to achieve things.

This is a big one. Could it be that it's not life but your interpretation of it that creates the experience of struggling?

I doubt that I'll ever permanently see through self.

That will only happen if you give up.

If you are not the separate self who/what are you?

I don't know. Awareness maybe?

The "I don't know" described experience. (it's a good answer)
The "Awareness maybe" was a reflection of something you have read or heard. Second hand knowledge. Of no value here.

much love

vince

[Ovid]

To start with, thoughts have no validity. They are stories. They may or may not reflect accuracy, but that is not what we are looking for here.
Thoughts that describe experience are ok, but no deductive conclusions.

I think (heh) that this is what I get stuck on. I keep jumping into deduction.

I understood recently that the only thing that can say if a thought is true or false is another thought. So thought-content exists off in its own world, while direct experience is true just because it's there, it proves itself so to speak.

There is an uneasy feeling that arises when I think about how thoughts are not valid. I don't know how I would navigate life without believing my thoughts.

i hasten to add that a SENSE of self will be experienced. Well, not actually. Sensations will happen that the mind will say is a self, so without the logical conclusion, can those sensations be anything more than sensations?

So if my mind says something like "I exist", the raw sensation is that thought of "I exist". But having the sense of self doesn't prove that a self exists, because it requires some deduction like "Thoughts are true, therefore the thought 'I exist' proves that the self exists".

If it were possible (it is) for feeling and behaviour to happen for other reasons, would you still conclude that it is a self behind it?

Then there wouldn't be a reason to believe that there is a self behind it. I don't know what it would make me conclude.

Thinking and behaving AS IF there is a past and future is fine. It has practical uses. How does this make them actual?

If past and future are not actual, how can it have a practical use to behave as if they exist?

I get what you are saying as a general thing, but we need to be more specific to investigate this.
Are you saying that you are less opinionated (judgy) when interacting with others?

Yes. As an example my mom has a tendency to talk a lot about things that don't interest me. Before it would bother me, but now I can often accept that this is just how she is.

So what has changed?

Understanding that my ideas of right and wrong are stories allows me to be more flexible with them. It doesn't seem like the universe has to conform to my thoughts as much as before.

This is a big one. Could it be that it's not life but your interpretation of it that creates the experience of struggling?

Certainly. I often note that I'm caught up in a story of my own struggle even when it's a beautiful day outside, the birds are singing, I have food on my table, nothing to worry about here and now. Still, I don't know how to let go of the story.

That will only happen if you give up.

Thank you, that is reassuring.

The "I don't know" described experience. (it's a good answer)
The "Awareness maybe" was a reflection of something you have read or heard. Second hand knowledge. Of no value here.

Thanks. I'll do my best to stick to the facts.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ovid,

I think (heh) that this is what I get stuck on. I keep jumping into deduction.

Good. Caught in the act.
That reflex to “figure it out”—that’s the trap.

Right now—drop the thought loop.
Don’t solve. Don’t trace logic.
Scan direct experience again.

Where is “you” in sensation?
Not the word. Not the idea.
The thing. The self.

Is it there?

Don’t explain. Just look. Report what’s actually here.

There is an uneasy feeling that arises when I think about how thoughts are not valid. I don't know how I would navigate life without believing my thoughts.

No self is needed to navigate. It never was.

Look at today. Breathing happened. Movement happened. Words formed.
Did “you” direct each blink, each heartbeat, each micro-decision? Or did it just flow?

Life doesn’t need your belief in thought.
It needs your presence in this—raw, unfiltered sensation.

That unease you feel? It’s the death cry of the controller illusion.
Let it scream. Let it burn. And notice—life still moves.

You’ll navigate.
You always have.
Just without the lie.

So if my mind says something like "I exist", the raw sensation is that thought of "I exist"

You're reasoning again. Do it now. Say "I exist" (with meaning) and watch the body to see if any sensations are revealed.

having the sense of self doesn't prove that a self exists, because it requires some deduction like "Thoughts are true, therefore the thought 'I exist' proves that the self exists".

Yes. How can thoughts prove anything? They are always ABOUT something. They are never it. They are story.

I don't know what it would make me conclude.

You might (hopefully) conclude that you don't know.

If past and future are not actual, how can it have a practical use to behave as if they exist?

I got a phone call yesterday about a meeting tomorrow...

but now I can often accept that this is just how she is.

Excellent. This acceptance of what IS, makes life much more pleasant.

It doesn't seem like the universe has to conform to my thoughts as much as before.

This is a really big one. Almost all suffering rests on the foundation that the world should be how we think that it should be.

Still, I don't know how to let go of the story.

Good. That honesty cracks the shell.

You don’t need to “let go.” That’s more story.

Just stop feeding it.
Right now—feel the pull to go into the narrative.
Pause. Don’t follow it.

Bring attention down—into the chest, gut, hands.
What’s here without the story?
Just sensation. Tension. Sound. Breathing. That’s it.

Stay here. Don’t touch the next thought.

Now tell me—what happens in your body when you stop following the story, just for a few seconds?

I'll do my best to stick to the facts.

Good. Stay with facts. Facts are sensation.

Right now:
What’s happening? Not in thought. In the body.

Where is tension? Movement? Heat? Stillness?

Don’t name. Just describe what’s physically happening.
Right now. Report it.

with love

vince

[Ovid]

Hello again Vince. I've been following your instructions to look.

Where is “you” in sensation?
Not the word. Not the idea.
The thing. The self.

Is it there?

Don’t explain. Just look. Report what’s actually here.

In the visual field there is color and movement. No self to be found there.
There are sounds, but no self in the sounds either.
In the sense of touch, there's only touch. No self here either.
And the thoughts, they have the same sensation as sound. I don't find a self here either.

Those are all the sensations I experience. I don't know where else I would look.

Look at today. Breathing happened. Movement happened. Words formed.
Did “you” direct each blink, each heartbeat, each micro-decision? Or did it just flow?

It just flowed. Even when it seems like I am in control, that's just another thought that came out of nowhere to say that I am in control.

You're reasoning again. Do it now. Say "I exist" (with meaning) and watch the body to see if any sensations are revealed.

There's the sensation of the thought "I exist", and the sound when I say it out loud. In the body there's only the sensation of my speech organs constricting to make that sound.

Bring attention down—into the chest, gut, hands.
What’s here without the story?
Just sensation. Tension. Sound. Breathing. That’s it.

Stay here. Don’t touch the next thought.

Now tell me—what happens in your body when you stop following the story, just for a few seconds?

When I stop following the story, the body calms down. Tension dissipates.

Good. Stay with facts. Facts are sensation.

Right now:
What’s happening? Not in thought. In the body.

Where is tension? Movement? Heat? Stillness?

Don’t name. Just describe what’s physically happening.
Right now. Report it.

There is pulsating tension, heat, movement and stillness. It's a jumble of different sensations. Without naming, I can't even say where those sensations are located. But they are very clearly perceived.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ovid, i like all of your answers. Here are some questions to reveal anywhere we need to look further;
Here. Run through these—slowly. Don’t answer from thought.
Let each one land in the body. Notice what shifts, what resists, what contracts.

1. Right now—can you find a self in direct experience?
2. When a thought arises, who is it for? Who’s listening?
3. Can you find the one who chooses the next thought?
4. Is there a center? A location of “you”?
5. When emotion arises, where does it start? Can you locate its source?
6. Can you stop awareness? Or start it? Where’s the switch?
7. Does anything in direct experience need a “you” to happen?
8. Can you find the border between what’s “you” and “not you”?
9. Is the sense of “I” anything more than sensation + thought?
10. If you stopped thinking completely—what’s left? And is anything missing?

Report from the body, not the mind.

much love

vince

[Ovid]

Hello again Vince.

1. Right now—can you find a self in direct experience?

No, I cannot find a self. My throat and neck muscles contract when I sit with this question.

2. When a thought arises, who is it for? Who’s listening?

There is just the experience of the thought. Nobody is listening. The thought isn't "for" anyone, it just is.

3. Can you find the one who chooses the next thought?

No. Only thoughts about the next thought. But those don't have a chooser either.

4. Is there a center? A location of “you”?

No, there is no center.

5. When emotion arises, where does it start? Can you locate its source?

It just arises. I can't find a source.

6. Can you stop awareness? Or start it? Where’s the switch?

I can't stop or start awareness. There is no switch.

7. Does anything in direct experience need a “you” to happen?

- Sensory impressions happen without a "me".
- Physical movements happen without a "me".
- Thoughts happen without a "me".

There's nothing else I can think of looking for.

8. Can you find the border between what’s “you” and “not you”?

No.

9. Is the sense of “I” anything more than sensation + thought?

The sense of "I" is only sensation and thought. I would even say that it's only thought, that can appropriate some sensations.

10. If you stopped thinking completely—what’s left? And is anything missing?

Awareness, sensation, movement is left. Nothing is missing (except thoughts of course, but it doesn't make the experience incomplete in any way).

Best,
Ovid

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ovid, beautiful. i'm excited. Here's some more questions..

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

vince

[Ovid]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, never.

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

For me the illusion came from identifying with thoughts. In particular, the inner voice that says it's "me" and that "I" am figuring things out by thinking about them. Even after starting to look into ideas of no self, I believed that I was the thing that produced those thoughts, speaking to myself from outside consciousness.

It's a bit early to talk about how life has changed, but there are some issues I've ruminated on for a long time that seem to have a lot less power now. Instead of looking out at the world from the perspective of my thoughts, it's like the thoughts are just one more thing that pops up in the big soup of direct experience.

Also, the degree of identification with my body has shifted. Now if I look at my hand holding a cup, the hand doesn't feel more like "me" than the cup does.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I feel relaxed. The aforementioned rumination used to come with a clenching feeling in the throat, but that has barely been there for the last few days.

I also dreamed that it would be some big personal achievement for me to attain this understanding, but now there's no person to claim the achievement :-)

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

The post where you forced me to stop reasoning made a big impact. Before that I had been continuously checking back into thoughts, even when I thought I was just sitting with direct experience. From that point onward I forced myself not to reason about what I was experiencing, and that made a big difference.

As I mentioned above, I was inferring that there was a "me" that was producing the thoughts. Maybe neurons in the brain, for example, and that the "me" was encoded in those neurons. Your suggestion to consider other reasons that thoughts could appear was very helpful. Sitting with that allowed me to see that thoughts could appear for any number of reasons, so they aren't evidence that there's "anyone in there".

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

All these words point back to the same illusion, namely that there is something in consciousness that is making choices. In reality things just happen.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I don't know how things happen. In my experience things are just flowing. Bodily movements happen, thoughts pop up. What the source of that is, I don't know.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

"I" am not responsible for anything, because there's no one there to be held responsible. (That said "responsibility" can still have its practical uses, just like "past" and "future" as we discussed earlier.)

I haven't been in enough triggering situations recently for my desire to blame other people to pop up. But I'm definitely blaming myself less for things that happened in the past. And I used to beat myself up over making blunders in chess, that doesn't happen much anymore :-)

6) Anything to add?

Not really. I think I need to sit with this a lot longer to work out all the consequences, but the illusion is seen through.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ovid, i have submitted your answers to other guides to see if they find anything that i might have missed.
If there is agreement that you have experienced an initial shift and recognized the illusory nature of a Self.
It marks the beginning of a 'journey' that will continue while ever curiosity is active.
A good way to keep this alive is to guide (pay it forward) Tell me if this interests you.
To encourage and facilitate your discovery, I am inviting you to attend zoom meetings that happen 4 times each week where this (discovery) is experienced.
Email me if you woud like to be added you to the notification list. (vinceschubert@gmail.com)
There is a meetup every Saturday at 9 pm (Sydney Australia time)
and one each Monday 7 am ( Sydney Australia time)
and each Wednesday at 4 pm (Sydney Australia time)
and every Friday 8 am (Sydney time) - never published.
You can check your local time here: https://www.worldtimebuddy.com

Please note that it's always the same time on the same link. 
Arriving late and leaving early is fine.
Click here to Join Zoom Meeting 
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09
You're welcome to just turn up for these. (more than welcome - i encourage it)

much love

vince

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ovid, a clarification question emerged from another guide..

I haven't been in enough triggering situations recently for my desire to blame other people to pop up. But I'm definitely blaming myself less for things that happened in the past. And I used to beat myself up over making blunders in chess, that doesn't happen much anymore :-)

Are you still blaming yourself SOME or even A LITTLE for things that happened in the past? That would imply you still believe a little that you have a separate self, it seems...
Or is it rather that it still happens some or a little that thoughts about the past and selfblame come are triggered in certain situations and can be seen to be ultimately a spontaneous emergence without any ultimately separate self, i.e. a misunderstanding just happening?
In other words, next time such thoughts come (or you can invite/try to trigger them now for the purpose of investigation), please check if you still believe they are truly about the real separate you, about your ultimately separate self?

vince