Lifting the veil

[Sarah1973]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self that I feel to be real- thoughts, perceptions, ideas etc. is an illusion constructed by the mind. That I am trapped in this view because I can’t stop identifying with my thoughts.

What are you looking for at LU?
I have been through this process before and the self dropped away. Unfortunately, I didn’t keep looking. Over the years, the layers of self have started to hide the truth again and I can see that I am trapped once again in the egoic self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am hoping a guide can offer me support and guidance back through the process to help me reawaken to what was once so clear. I have tried with the book to do it myself, but last time I found the ability to ask questions so, so helpful.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have many years of spiritual seeking behind me. Mostly in the Buddhist tradition, but more recently with non dual teachers and some branches of Hinduism. The seeking stopped for quite a while after going through the gate quite a few years back, but I feel like I have lost my way a bit and have maybe got caught up in too many different methods of enquiry. I feel like a direct approach will help me to see though the spiritual chatter.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[indranet]

Hi Sarah,
My name is J.P, I would be happy to work with you.

It would be helpful to post daily.

[Seeker01]

Hi JP
Thank you for your message.
I am very grateful for your time and would certainly be delighted with a daily post.
Sarah

[indranet]

Hi Sarah,

Is there any time during your daily life when you feel something other than trapped in the mental chatter?

Meditation, being in nature etc.

J.P

[Seeker01]

Hi JP

I can’t seem to figure out the quote option. Do you have instructions please?

For your question, yes- there are times when there is a space around the mental chatter and between the mental chatter. This can be during meditation or just when I am sat still and attentive. There is a sense that I have to look for that space though.

Thank you.
Sarah

[indranet]

Sarah,

This is the link for the quote function guide.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

yes- there are times when there is a space around the mental chatter and between the mental chatter. This can be during meditation or just when I am sat still and attentive. There is a sense that I have to look for that space though.

looking for that space is ok. When you look for that space, can you always find it?

J.P

[Seeker01]

Hi JP,

When you look for that space, can you always find it?

Yes, the space is always there and can always be found when I look for it.

Sarah

[indranet]

Sarah,

I can see that I am trapped once again in the egoic self.

From what you are telling me of your experience , I don't think the above statement is true.

I would like you to try and access that "silence" as you go about your day. You may need to take mini-breaks to do that at first.

Try it for a day and tell me how you got on.

J.P

[Seeker01]

Thanks JP,

Yes- maybe that response was a bit hyperbolic 🤣
It’s hard to express in words how I feel. I think what I was clumsily trying to express was my feeling that the silence that seemed so clear previously, now needs to be really sought after to access. Day to day activities and the thoughts that arise in response fully engage me to such an extent that I identify more with the thoughts than the silence. This is different to how it was.

I have only just picked this up as I have been at work all day, so I will post again tomorrow evening after a day of accessing the silence as much as possible.

[Seeker01]

Hey,
I have tried to access the silence throughout the day. I have found that my ability to access it varies depending on my circumstances. When it is quiet, such as during the weekend, I find I can access it quite easily. However, today it has felt evasive. There’s an intellectual knowing it is there, but it feels crowded with thoughts and sensations. Whereas in still times these seem to arise from the silence, today, they seem to be at the forefront of my experience. I am feeling frustrated that I can’t access it which also isn’t helping.
I have just been sat in a very quiet place with a candle for a while and this has allowed me to find it, but it isn’t easily accessible in normal day to day circumstances.
Sarah

[indranet]

Sarah,

There are really only two aspects to living beyond the known.

The first is being able to access the silence, which you obviously can do. I know it is frustrating at times when you feel overwhelmed by your everyday mind.
I suggest you find some time everyday to allow yourself to fall into that silence.


Secondly, you have to be crystal clear that you are not your thoughts and feelings.

I think it might be good for you to put in writing your thoughts and around your relationship to the mind. Try not to use any learned answers that you may have acquired. Write from your own experience.

J.P

[Seeker01]

Hi JP,

I suggest you find some time everyday to allow yourself to fall into that silence.

Yes- this is great advice. When sitting in silence regularly, the thoughts arise, fall away and I can see the whole system at work. But this is a temporary state and although I have glimpses of it in my everyday, it is not consistent.

Secondly, you have to be crystal clear that you are not your thoughts and feelings.

I think this may be the problem. It once seemed very obvious to me all the time; life just flowed and there was no doer, but now, I’m not so sure.

put in writing your thoughts and around your relationship to the mind

I assume you mean in this message :)

Outside of meditation or just sitting, thoughts arise and although I recognise they appear from nowhere, they are corresponding so closely to the feelings in the body (mostly the heart centre) and are so immersive, that they seem to be me. Alongside this, and in many ways more persistent, is the sensation behind the eyes of a me - a someone. Now of course, when I stop and have the time to see the process in action, I can recognise the absurdity of this statement.

I don’t understand how I can know so certainly on one level that there is no me and my thoughts/ feelings aren’t me, but at the same time be fooled by them in my everyday experience. I can only assume that I don’t fully accept it- that somewhere there is an element of doubt.

Is it just a case of not stopping and questioning it enough?
Thank you
Sarah

[indranet]

Sarah,

There is an element of mystery to your current predicament, it makes it difficult for me to give guidance.

I know from my own experience that change can come when least expected and without any particular spiritual "work"

I feel that when one is ready to fully accept truth or reality it will happen naturally. I know this can be an infuriating thing to read as it seems to leave one without resources. Essentially it comes down to wanting it enough. I think you can trust the seeking impulse that has brought you this far.

Having said that, there are areas of inquiry that I think are useful. I think the advaita vedanta model of the self vs the identified mind, is helpful. What is the knowingness that observes the movement of mind and body?

J.P

[Seeker01]

Hi,
Thank you for your message. It resonates a lot. After I went through the gate last time, there was a prolonged state (at least a week) with no doer and just a sense of flow, no self and unity- it was a complete shift in perspective. Over time this has faded and I wonder if I was hoping that another dialogue through LU would snap me back into it.

I just want to clarify to ensure I have understood fully.

Do you feel that LU has fulfilled its purpose in enabling me to see experientially no self, and that now it is up to me to take the time to sit in beingness as much as possible and look for it as much as possible to enable maturation of my understanding?

What is the knowingness that observes the movement of mind and body?

Is this more of a direction for me to pursue than a question you want me to answer in this thread? I have spent many hours looking into this and what arises is a deep and fully immersive sense of love and peace. Like a feeling of being in love with all that is. It stays a while afterwards, then eventually leaves.

I am just trying gauge if you feel this is something I need to now do by myself rather than as an ongoing dialogue with you. I fully understand if this is the case. You are not here to provide me with full spiritual guidance 😊
I appreciate your comments and it has given me much to think about.
Sarah

[indranet]

Sarah,

I feel you are beyond the stage of seeing through the individual self, you already had that experience. The challenge now is to develop the confidence in your understanding. It's a bit of a different challenge because you are not being swept along by that spiritual high that makes it all seem effortless.

what arises is a deep and fully immersive sense of love and peace. Like a feeling of being in love with all that is. It stays a while afterwards, then eventually leaves.

This is a beautiful expression of your understanding and depth of experience.

I think it would be helpful to continue our dialogue. I think sharing ideas and experience can illuminate what's really happening

Maybe that sounds a bit vague and not much of a plan. I don't think plans help when you are plunging into the unknown.

Of course it your decision .

With love
J.P