Want to finally know the truth

[JackBurton]

Am I too tough a nut to crack? The long delays in guidance have made it hard to keep up the focus, every day I spend long stretches inquiring into what is behind the thoughts of a "me" or the reactions/beliefs that seem to stem from a "me." Always coming up empty, knowing there is nothing there and yet somehow not REALLY knowing. It makes no sense. It doesn't seem like there is any fear of letting it go, in fact there's an eagerness to in many ways...but then again, these things like wanting, or feeling frustrated, or any of it - what's behind that, aside from just more thoughts? Nothing, apparently. So what is really wanted, and who is actually frustrated? But there is still the identification with both that won't drop.

If it were easy, I guess everyone would be doing it.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin, sorry for the slower responses, I'll try and keep this more regular. I appreciate your patience.

Am I too tough a nut to crack? The long delays in guidance have made it hard to keep up the focus,

No, I think you are doing very well Kevin. I know that may sound weird but it's true, I'm here with you until this nut cracks, it just won't be you or me who cracks it :) your diligence and curiosity are your friends here. Trust them and keep looking.

every day I spend long stretches inquiring into what is behind the thoughts of a "me" or the reactions/beliefs that seem to stem from a "me."

How are you doing that exactly?

I think you could refine the questions - ask instead IS there a ME.
Is there a me behind the thought of a Me?
Is there a me from which the thoughts / reactions seem to stem from?

Can you see the difference? Maybe it's just the way you wrote it but it's an important distinction.

I think I could use something to help clarify this, I am not understanding the question really.

Ok let's try an exercise:

1. For the next 10 seconds, take note of what the thoughts are about (what they say, how you feel, or what you see it the thought space)

Pause for a few seconds, take a breath.

2. For the next 10 seconds - take note of what is experienced.
what can be seen, heard, smelled, and tasted? Which touch sensations are present?

3. Do 1. and 2. have anything to do with each other?

that's the ringing sensation in my head and the tingling in my arms. It is "dormant" most of the time but I just did what you suggested and it immediately flared up. It's getting kind of irritating honestly.

Tell me more about this experience. Would you say this is unpleasant? Is there a resistance to experiencing this?

I have personally experienced tinnitus for many years and at times there has been a lot of resistance to the ringing, not wanting it to be there which can make it seem a lot worse than it really is.

Can you open up a bit to this feeling? For example, tune your attention to feel the tingling in the arms, can you get closer to that, or the ringing? Are you curious to see it a bit closer?

If it were easy, I guess everyone would be doing it.

Right, it's not easy, it's actually impossible, but it still can happen. It's paradoxical but will be clear when it happens.

I can't stop picking at it until it's out. But it's also that same level of frustrating when it WON'T COME OUT, no matter what I do.

I know this a metaphor, but I will respond to that, maybe it will help maybe not - Give up trying to get it out. There is nothing there to begin with. Trying to remove it is only reinforcing the illusion of its existence. There is nothing to do. There is nothing to get. Stopping picking at it is the only relief that can be found.

[JackBurton]

"...every day I spend long stretches inquiring into what is behind the thoughts of a "me" or the reactions/beliefs that seem to stem from a "me."

How are you doing that exactly?

I think you could refine the questions - ask instead IS there a ME.
Is there a me behind the thought of a Me?
Is there a me from which the thoughts / reactions seem to stem from?

Can you see the difference? Maybe it's just the way you wrote it but it's an important distinction.

Generally it probably just ends up in thought. For instance, the first question is, "Who is the me that was upset by that?" Then there's just a blank, so the thoughts that come are the aspects of what happened that created a reaction, whatever they are. And an awareness that all of it is just thought, and confirming that there's no actual thing called a "me" there anywhere. But the problem is, since there's not an understanding of how to do this inquiry without it devolving into thought, it ends up in trying to unsuccessfully "reason/think" my way into it backwards, somehow. Which I know won't work. Hence the frustration that has been growing.

What struck me in the questions you asked me to use was "Is there a me behind the thought of a me." And it seems like there is, which is I suppose consciousness. Whatever is aware of the thoughts or noticing them, and either identifying with them or not...allowing them to influence it somehow, or not. I actually can't tell if there is a me that the thoughts or reactions stem from, anymore. They just seem to come, which is confusing because so much of what is taught is about controlling thoughts...yet somehow now, it seems like they're just coming on their own and not being created or "thought" by "me." So what's left is to either pay attention to them, or not...and then that begs the question, who is paying attention? Something is noticing everything, experiencing everything, and is whatever that is also doing the thinking, in part or all? Is some of the thought from "me" and some of it not? Is this why it seems like there are entire conversations that happen in thought, with two sides arguing or debating? *Sigh*

Ok let's try an exercise:

1. For the next 10 seconds, take note of what the thoughts are about (what they say, how you feel, or what you see it the thought space)

The thoughts: "What is this for? Why? Do you know what he's doing? Where is this going?" Typical.

Pause for a few seconds, take a breath.

2. For the next 10 seconds - take note of what is experienced.
what can be seen, heard, smelled, and tasted? Which touch sensations are present?

The sound of my computer fans, the feeling of my fingers interlaced and resting on my stomach. The ringing in my head. Pressure of my butt in the seat.

3. Do 1. and 2. have anything to do with each other?

Nothing at all, that I can tell.

...ringing sensation...

Tell me more about this experience. Would you say this is unpleasant? Is there a resistance to experiencing this?

I have personally experienced tinnitus for many years and at times there has been a lot of resistance to the ringing, not wanting it to be there which can make it seem a lot worse than it really is.

Can you open up a bit to this feeling? For example, tune your attention to feel the tingling in the arms, can you get closer to that, or the ringing? Are you curious to see it a bit closer?

It's not tinnitus, it's not in the ears. At first I thought it was, but it's not...it's more up in the head, in a way. Started when, in inquiry, I peeled away everything that was "not me" until nothing was left, but then realized that it wasn't nothing. Then suddenly realized that the "nothing" I was, was also what everything else was, too. So then making the discovery that I was also everything, because of that. The energy tingling happened at the same time, in my arms...mostly my forearms and hands.

One night it seemed particularly insistent and when I got home and pulled into the driveway, I parked and turned off the car. Then I reclined with my eyes closed and sort of mentally just said, "Okay whatever it is you're going to be, just be." The energy sensation expanded throughout my whole body and sort of seemed to exceed the limits of the body somewhat, and then contracted back in until it was gone again. It was a weird thing where I opened my eyes slowly, wondering if something was going to be changed...but nothing was. I sort of just thought, "Well that was weird," but after that, the ringing seemed to happen all the time and mostly seemed to happen when I would do inquiry. Almost every time I read one of your posts it "goes off." It's annoying to me not because of the sensation, but because I wish I knew why it was happening...wondering if there is something I'm supposed to be "getting" or it's trying to do something, and maybe I'm not allowing it somehow? I don't know.

My wife has also suggested I meditate when it's happening and just "open up" to it the way I did that time in the driveway, and I do sometimes just close my eyes and "listen" and "feel" what it is, but nothing is elucidated by that. It just is.

I know this a metaphor, but I will respond to that, maybe it will help maybe not - Give up trying to get it out. There is nothing there to begin with. Trying to remove it is only reinforcing the illusion of its existence. There is nothing to do. There is nothing to get. Stopping picking at it is the only relief that can be found.

Then what am I doing, going back and forth with you like this lol?! ;)

There are so much about this that is frustrating, but then the first question is "Frustrating to who?" I don't know. There is a thought that it's frustrating. The thought that it's frustrating stems from a desire to "get it." The desire to "get it" is ego-driven. What is the ego? The supposed "self" that I'm trying to find, but can't. So if it's not there, and is just a thought, how can the reactions exist? How can the feeling of frustration exist? The "thinker" must be the one "feeling" too, but I can't find the "thinker/feeler" either. I close my eyes and feel sensation, but it's not linked to anything. It's just sensation, floating there in the ether somehow. I listen, and it's sound...and without thought, the sound just floats there. Noticed, then defined, but that's it.

So then the feelings of discouragement come because this thing that the ego says "You should get" is not something that CAN be gotten, not through effort and not through thought. As you said, something that is impossible and yet somehow still happens. So if it's nothing that can be caused, then it's possible to do this for the rest of this body's physical life and never get through the gate. Letting go of the belief that it can be caused, or the desire to cause it, is the challenge. It's that old issue of the desire for controlling how things go, or having the ability to influence or cause something to happen.

This is getting hard. Very reminiscent of how I felt about Algebra II in my senior year of high school. "I just don't get it."

[JackBurton]

I also had an observation that many times, when I (whoever is doing the inquiry) am paying attention to the space where thoughts arise and waiting for them, they oftentimes refuse to come. There will be something like a "mental jumble" of unclear stuff, hard to describe but if it were sound it would be like turning a dial through an FM radio spectrum really quickly, I guess. It isn't until focus is removed from that space that anything actually intelligible starts coming. Sometimes it'll be an answer or comment related to something I just read or asked, sometimes just completely unrelated to anything. But putting focused attention there seems to stop it in its tracks somehow.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin,

I'd written a long response to all your questions,
But I'm not going to post that, maybe it will come in helpful another time but I want to keep this response more focused.

It's annoying to me not because of the sensation, but because I wish I knew why it was happening

I get that. Honestly, I don't know why that's happening either, but it does sound like it could be Kundalini energy. I have similar experiences, not quite as you described, but they initially came on during meditation, and there was uneasiness, fear even because i didn't know what it was either. In fact i never knew - it has always been deeply mysterious, even after many years of it happening. Eventually however, I did begin to trust it. I think what you described about surrendering to it - just letting it be what it is may be the best way to engage with it. I also wouldn't hold any exceptions about what it's 'supposed' to do. In my experience, it had nothing to do with seeing through the illusion of self, but maybe it will help you feel into the body more deeply - only you will know, by experiencing it.

Also, my mentor has some advice to add as she also has experienced similar phenomena:

Re Kevin, the first thing I would address are his Kundalini phenomena. They are harmless and help in the awakening process. It's best to just let it happen as it happens. Should it disturb his life too much, he could devote 30 min. in the morning and evening to it, allowing it to do what it wants to do. It opens new energy channels and is mostly pleasant. It can lead to peak experiences like feeling one with everything or the other insights he mentioned. If it gets too intense and uncomfortable, it would be good to not engage in any spiritual or mental activity but rather do some repairs that have been waiting around or clean the garage. Physical activity is the most helpful when the energy is too intense or doesn't allow him to get the sleep he needs. There are more instructions on this website: www.kundaliniguide.com

---


Regarding the inquiry:
Let's make this as simple as possible.

A flat surface with legs has the name "table" in English.
Which sensory experience does the name "I" belong to?

That's all you need to find out. You don't need to dive deep for this question, rather stay in everyday experience.

[JackBurton]

Thanks for the insights, from both of you. My wife and I thought it could be Kundalini after doing some reading, but it doesn't behave the way everyone always describes Kundalini (coming up from the base of the spine, etc...) so I wasn't sure. Up until all of this, I have ZERO experience with anything remotely mystical and was honestly very skeptical anything like this actually DID happen. Of course, until I experienced it for myself. If it's going to help me with this process, I sure wish it would get on with it! (As I type this, it flared up again...always seems to whenever I'm discussing or pondering something overtly spiritual in nature.) I'll take both of your advice and just let it be whatever it is, and try to stop worrying about it. I think I had given myself some fear while reading about Kundalini because so many gurus and others said that if it "awakens" it can lead to health problems and pain for an extended period of time. So far, it has just been that strange energetic feeling in the arms and the ringing sensation, and it has only been a distraction in that I dwell on what the meaning of it is, or whether I'm supposed to be doing something related to it. I guess I will just leave it be, as you guys suggest.

A flat surface with legs has the name "table" in English.
Which sensory experience does the name "I" belong to?

I'm really struggling to answer this one. I can't assign a single sensory experience to "I" because it sort of has become a catch-all term that includes everything that makes up the experience of living this life in this body, with these thoughts and feelings and etc...

As I just had my eyes closed and trying to find something, a memory came up from a near fatal car accident I was involved in, back in 2017. As the other guy launched the front end of his car into the air off another vehicle and he came hurtling straight for my driver's side windshield, time slowed down. I remember distinctly having a profound feeling of peace and calm...I characterized it as "resignation" when talking about it in the past, but in that moment there was a complete absence of this "I" belief or feeling - I'm actually not sure what to call it anymore - that is so illusory and yet seems so real for some reason. It was the sudden and complete lack of a need to preserve or protect this body and mind, maybe...like the sudden absence of attachment and identification that is normally so strongly felt. Don't mean to get off on a tangent but that was what came up.

Truth is, it seems like the "I" has sort of become a catch-all term that is meant to encompass everything involved with the experience of living as a body-mind in this world. But not one single sensory experience covers it.

[JackBurton]

Some after-thoughts as I have continued with my eyes closed, trying to feel this question and answer. When the questions or statements including "I" are thought, the "I" being referred to is a collection as it relates to whatever the thought is. Like for instance, "I need to figure out how to pay these bills." The "I" is a collection of thoughts on what to do, what actions is the body going to take, and then associated emotions (fear, anxiety, worry). It's the thoughts, the body, the actions, all rolled up in a package called "I".

[JackBurton]

Listening to someone talk about Awakening today, they made a comment that stuck with me. They said it's like an eyeball searching for itself, and I realized that a self can't find itself. It will find everything other than itself. So as I'm letting that sink in, it's apparent why no matter where I look, I can't find the "me" anywhere. Everything that I can find in my experience or in the senses cannot be me. But then, I end up circling back around to being the experiencer or receiver, which also can't be seen. It feels like it's just right in front of my face but so far away somehow.

[JackBurton]

I'm now reminded of the exercises in the senses and the question of whether those things exist inside or outside. If everything exists "inside" (which it must, because outside of what?) then EVERYTHING is actually me and so there is nothing else to be found, when looking for a "me." My awareness or consciousness, which is where everything is seen, heard, felt, or experienced. This is that same recognition I had the first morning all of this really started, but is maybe less abstract now due to these various other avenues of inquiry we have pursued. If everything is "me" than there is nothing else to point at and call a self, because there IS nothing "outside". And if there's no outside, then there's no inside either.

The thing that confuses me is the existence of "others" in the experience who operate and experience everything separately, with a completely different perspective than the one had here. It creates the case intellectually for separation, for discreet selves, of which I would then be one. But then I suppose the next step is realizing that THEY are all me too, in the "macro" sense. Then in that case there are no others, either.

I'm unsure how much of this has been thought, and how much has been feeling or intuition. Some of both maybe.

[JackBurton]

It seems as if consciousness, or the actual "I" that exists, has created this interaction and kicked all of these things off, and is creating this whole sequence of events in this process called "Awakening". It's weird that the feeling of being a person swept up in a process called awakening is currently giving way to actually BEING the process, itself.

This is a weird sensation. I need to sleep on it. Maybe it's sleep deprivation lol

[JackBurton]

Feels like I should add, no big lightning strikes or profound blissful experience or anything. There is a sense of being what is happening, rather than being a "person" being swept along in something and clawing for control. Everything that is experienced, felt, and thought here is what I am. There's nothing that can be singled out as "me". The typing starts and then this stuff is flowing out. Consciousness is responsible for all of it and that is what I am, ultimately.

Inside thought and emotion now there is fear as this stuff is being written out, it is easy to identify as the fear of being "wrong." Not knowing, somehow feeling "less than" when others know or experience more, or experience differently. A desire to be right, or correct. A worry that because it isn't exactly as others have felt/described, it's not right or real. Kind of the same way the kundalini stuff was being seen.

Apologies for the wall of posts. Just feels like it needs to get out and be seen. When re-reading it, seems like it keeps triggering further exploration. Maybe stuck in an inquiry loop now? Any thoughts from you or your mentor would be welcome at this point. The sense of uncertainty seems to be rapidly shrinking though.

[filtah]

Hi Kevin, thanks for your replies.
Clearly you have been looking very deeply into this. And it's good to get it out as you say. It definitely sounds like something is happening here!

no big lightning strikes or profound blissful experience or anything

I'd be surprised if it was anything like that - this is just a thought!

Are there other expectations?

Inside thought and emotion now there is fear as this stuff is being written out, it is easy to identify as the fear of being "wrong."

It's ok. Can you welcome this fear? I think you need to go there. I'm glad you noticed this and brought it up. What is this fear protecting you from? Can you get a little closer to it - allow yourself to identify with it even. Go the other direction towards it, so to speak. Ask it directly what is identifying with this fear? Don't be scared to identify completely with it. Is identification actually possible? You have to let the fear show you, not just answer by thinking 'about' it. (Remember the coloured socks!)


I've drafted a message to my mentor and will get back to you asap with the inquiry. Hope you can get some rest! Relaxation is important, so give yourself that gift, if you can (I know it's not always that simple thoigh!)

[JackBurton]

Today everything still feels like conceptual understanding, not "knowledge" although something was definitely felt last night. Maybe a glimpse at what is actually happening here. Sometimes it feels like there is "progress" and then there's the realization soon after that no, the "I" is still there and nothing has really changed. Just a lot of thinking. Trying not to entertain the feelings of discouragement.

Are there other expectations?

Yes. There is an expectation that this will somehow transition in quality to a feeling of knowing, or a certainty...and there's an assumption it will be clear and there won't need to be any question of whether "I got it right" or not.

I

t's ok. Can you welcome this fear? I think you need to go there. I'm glad you noticed this and brought it up. What is this fear protecting you from? Can you get a little closer to it - allow yourself to identify with it even. Go the other direction towards it, so to speak. Ask it directly what is identifying with this fear? Don't be scared to identify completely with it. Is identification actually possible? You have to let the fear show you, not just answer by thinking 'about' it. (Remember the coloured socks!)

It seems very rooted in the ego, the desire to get it "right," the desire to accomplish/achieve what "I set out to do." The fear is like a warning that I "might be wrong" and will face disappointment, if that's the case. It definitely feels disappointing when it SEEMS like the truth is close, but gets missed or buried in thoughts. There's also the element of fear of potential embarrassment, of not wanting to be wrong and face some kind of judgment about it. Yeah, it's the "I/ego" trying to protect itself.

It almost feels like this defense mechanism is trying to convince "me" that "I" have figured something out and don't need to keep this inquiry up, anymore. Maybe the fear is meant to dissuade me from continuing to pursue it. Or maybe I'm overthinking it again...I don't know.

[JackBurton]

Yeah, the more I try to feel into the fear the more I realize that it's based on fear of judgment and being "wrong." There's disappointment sure, but it's a desire not to feel embarrassed mixed with a desire to be right, to have finally "gotten" it. *Sigh* This is a frustrating process. I don't think it's something I could stop at this point, though.

[filtah]

Hey Kevin.

I'm pleased you are able to check in with this fear and get clearer on what is about. It's ok to feel it. It's innocent really.

the desire to accomplish/achieve what "I set out to do." The fear is like a warning that I "might be wrong" and will face disappointment, if that's the case.

So this could be a fear that 'you won't succeed'?
Let's try something now:

Check now to see if there is an elephant in the room.
Really - actually look for it, not just think "there can't be a elephant in my room". It sounds silly right, but do it anyway - it illustrates something very very simple, which is being overlooked.

No look for this "I" - the one that is unsuccessful, the one that is 'wrong', the one that is 'disappointed'.

Look in exactly the same way as you looked for the elephant.

Do this when ever you feel 'i am [...]'
This is as simple as the inquiry needs to be.

There is an expectation that this will somehow transition in quality to a feeling of knowing, or a certainty...and there's an assumption it will be clear and there won't need to be any question of whether "I got it right" or not.

It may not be clear, but by 'wanting to know', to 'understand' is to look for an answer in an thought.

In my experience, there is no such certainty to be had, not like you expect or want it to be. It's not an understanding. You don't have to know what a tree is to actually see it. It's as direct and simple as that.

Only thinking makes this complicated, believing the thoughts really is the core of it.

To know there is "no-self" is dependent on thought. A thought can always be believed or doubted, so there just doesn't exist real certainty in thought. This doesn't change! Seeing there is no self, when it hits - this recognition is not dependent on thought, so even if there is thought - doubt, belief, whatever, it's untouched by that. It doesn't matter if you feel doubt, or fear because, well, where is this I ?