Let's go!

[warissem]

Dear Ceylan

Here is a link which about dealing with the fear, I hope it will help.
http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=fear

I think this is starting to settle within me, in that I can see this.

There is no you to begin with.

(I realise I am doing the 'i' and 'me' thing but it's tricky haha.) But then I feel baffled, because all this time I have felt like I have some kind of control. That I can make choices and do things that influence what will happen next. That is not so? There are just things happening. Nobody is in control no controller just things happening. And awareness of the things arising in the field. And that awareness isn't ‘mine’ it's just thought and beliefs that ‘i’ exist.

Really glad to read this. Here is an exercise to deepen the seeing of no control :

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Nour

[Ceylan]

Hey Nour

How is the movement controlled?

When I look I see that there isn't really control, it is just a specific order of actions playing out each one triggering the next to occur. But there isn't someone or anything doing that, it is just happening. There are moments when it is clear there is no ‘i’ controlling anything and a second later the thought comes ‘i’ and then it, My mind keepls emptying/ blanking. The brain is so uncomfortable with these questions, they feel like riddles.

Does a thought control it?

No, it doesn't seem that way when I look closer. Mm i cant tell. My hand is turning up and down and im not thinking about turning it up and down im thinking about these questions but it is still turning.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Erm, well it feels like if i want to stop i can and it does stop. It feels as if I am in control. Ok what is ‘i’ Haha i dont really know when i look i can't actually find what ‘i’ is or who or what it is pointing to. Feel disorientated. It does feel like there is a controller.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Its is less of a decision it feels like more of like a domino effect, that this next experience or decision, thought, feeling is simply just in succession after the previous. cause and effect cause and effect. Seems the thought is making the decisions. Yes each thought but whose thoughts are they? are they controlled or are they just arising, do they belong to anyone. What one where is the one?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Mmm, it feels like i am choosing. ‘I’ being this mind and body. I don't know, I feel confused and different every time I do it. I can't answer with certainty. In one moment it feels like there is a choice and in the next it feels like there isn't at all.

Ceylan

[warissem]

Good morning

You have done good observations but here are some comments :

Erm, well it feels like if i want to stop i can and it does stop. It feels as if I am in control.

Is there an "I", a you wanting to stop?
Do you see that the thought "I want to stop" has already arisen when it is seen?

Ok what is ‘i’ Haha i dont really know when i look i can't actually find what ‘i’ is or who or what it is pointing to. Feel disorientated.

There is no you to feel disoriented, LOOK.

It does feel like there is a controller.

Is it only a thought or is there a sensation in the body?


To clarify the confusion about thoughts and choice, I invite you to do this investigation :
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Wish you the best

[Ceylan]

Hey Nour
I haven't completed the exercise yet, but here is my response to your other questions. Once The exercise is completed i will write to you with my findings. Thank you for your patience

Is there an "I", a you wanting to stop?

Haha well this is it ‘I’ is being flung around alot but when I actually look I can't find much ha but the identification with it is strong.

Do you see that the thought "I want to stop" has already arisen when it is seen?

Lol now I see. This was a good one thanks. Wow haha

There is no you to feel disoriented, LOOK.

The thoughts that are arising are full of confusion. I can see there is no ‘me’ to feel. But that is how it feels haha

Is it only a thought or is there a sensation in the body?

Only a thought. I think.

Ceylan

[Ceylan]

Hey Nour
After completing the Exercise here are my responses

Where are they coming from and going to?

Nowhere. They just arise, and then merge back. Like a wave in the ocean.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Not that i could see.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No. I don't think so. They just come. The thought that I can control them arises then I realise that is also just another spontaneous thought.

Can you predict your next thought?

No haha

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Not in my experience

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No. They come as and when. I'm guessing as a result of the storyline of the character.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

No in my experience it was quite chaotic. There was no logic. No order. Just lots of different thoughts spontaneously arising. Sometimes it would appear that they were arising in a logical order or taking content from previous thoughts but not for long before another thought would arise. Completely unrelated to the previous, other than them both being thoughts. lol so no

Ceylan

[warissem]

Good morning

Good observations of thoughts.

How do you feel that there is no controller of thoughts, no one choosing thoughts, no thinker?

Now about the thought "I", "me", "mine" : is there you, someone behind these thoughts saying them ?

Is there you, a separate self in any shape or form, was it ever?

Waiting for your insights

Nour

[Ceylan]

Good Morning!

How do you feel that there is no controller of thoughts, no one choosing thoughts, no thinker?

It feels liberating. But even though I have seen this, can see this, the feeling that there is a thinker is still there. Will this slowly fade? Or have less weight? I feel the same. I thought I'd feel a little different.

Now about the thought "I", "me", "mine": is there you, someone behind these thoughts saying them?

No. I can see there isn't but there is some confusion. Because it still feels this way. That there is someone behind the thoughts, responsible for them.

Is there you, a separate self in any shape or form, was it ever?

Mmm well this body and this mind and these thoughts and beliefs it feels like they all belong to a “me”. I don't think in actuality there is a “me”. whenever I look I do not find. But I can't shake it off. It feels quite solidified still. I can see how this is all just thoughts and that they just arise, like every other phenomena being experienced. Coming up and returning back again but, it still doesn't feel like it has completely clicked/settled. I feel like I am still on the other side of the gate. There is still a feeling of incompleteness, a searching, and waiting for something.


I smoke marijuana on occasion and I find when I smoke I can SEE clearer. its alot more obvious. there is more of a relaxing and opening. It clicks alot I experience the lack of ‘me’. But when I haven't it feels more like conceptual understanding rather than experience.

Ceylan

[warissem]

Dear Ceylan

It feels liberating. But even though I have seen this, can see this, the feeling that there is a thinker is still there. Will this slowly fade? Or have less weight? I feel the same. I thought I'd feel a little different.

Feeling = sensation + label
Does "the feeling that there is a thinker" is only a thought OR is it accompanied by sensations in the body? In other words how is this feeling expressed? (a thought, a sensation)

Is there a you in the first place to feel different ? LOOK at how thoughts are so deluding.

Now about the thought "I", "me", "mine": is there you, someone behind these thoughts saying them?

No. I can see there isn't but there is some confusion. Because it still feels this way. That there is someone behind the thoughts, responsible for them.

This answer is far away from direct experience which is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (or sensations). There is a need to discriminate between thoughts and what is here now in direct experience. Would you formulate the answer after having LOOKED AT direct experience?
The goal is to SEE what is as it is : a thought is a thought, a visual appearance is a visual appearance, a sound is a sound, a sensation is a sensation, ... without adding labels on what is here now. So simple.

Mmm well this body and this mind and these thoughts and beliefs it feels like they all belong to a “me”.

Is there a link between this concept "me" ant the body or the thoughts or the beliefs? LOOK and give answer through direct experience.

I don't think in actuality there is a “me”. whenever I look I do not find. But I can't shake it off.

Is it only a thought or is it seen for sure that there is no you?
Something which does not exist won't be found : how long will the search will last till you SEE for sure that there is no you in the scene?
Can an "I" which is a concept can shake off something?

It feels quite solidified still. I can see how this is all just thoughts and that they just arise, like every other phenomena being experienced. Coming up and returning back again but, it still doesn't feel like it has completely clicked/settled. I feel like I am still on the other side of the gate. There is still a feeling of incompleteness, a searching, and waiting for something.

What is noticing (being aware) of thoughts, body and beliefs?
Describe this "I" which is still on the other side of the gate?

I smoke marijuana on occasion and I find when I smoke I can SEE clearer. its alot more obvious. there is more of a relaxing and opening. It clicks alot I experience the lack of ‘me’. But when I haven't it feels more like conceptual understanding rather than experience.

The more clarity is here when there are less thoughts. It is not about the lack of "me" but its absence. There is no you even before you begin this dialog. You just need to see the truth of this statement.

Here is an exploration of the sense of self.
Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:-

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

Best for you

[Ceylan]

Hey Nour

Does "the feeling that there is a thinker" is only a thought OR is it accompanied by sensations in the body? In other words how is this feeling expressed? (a thought, a sensation)

It is both. Or rather i noticed every sensation was kind of labelled “i”, im not sure im explaining clearly. But i think i need to sit with the question more.

Is there a you in the first place to feel different ? LOOK at how thoughts are so deluding.

Ha no there isn't.

The goal is to SEE what is as it is : a thought is a thought, a visual appearance is a visual appearance, a sound is a sound, a sensation is a sensation, ... without adding labels on what is here now. So simple.

ha it is so simple. I can see thank you for this pointer. That has helped alot

Is there a link between this concept "me" ant the body or the thoughts or the beliefs? LOOK and give answer through direct experience.

No. i cannot see a link In direct experience. but conceptually yes they are linked like separate pieces of the same puzzle that is the concept of “me”. Not sure if that makes sense.

Is it only a thought or is it seen for sure that there is no you?

I don't think it has been seen for sure. mmm i think actually it has been seen, in very fleeting moments. But it is also a thought.

Can an "I" which is a concept can shake off something?

Lol only conceptually haha not in actuality, because what would be shaking and what would it be shaking off ha

What is noticing (being aware) of thoughts, body and beliefs?

I don't think anything is being aware. It is just awareness itself. it is all just things arising. that's it

Describe this "I" which is still on the other side of the gate?

A bag of thoughts and sensations haha

The more clarity is here when there are less thoughts. It is not about the lack of "me" but its absence. There is no you even before you begin this dialog. You just need to see the truth of this statement.

Mmmm, thank you.

Here is an exploration of the sense of self.
Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different.

Yes thank you. This is very helpful and is all understood apart from:

This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Does the sense of self have a location?

Behind the eyes and face/head, and the upper chest whereever attention/awareness goes within the body mind.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

It takes the size and shape of whatever body part a sensation is being experienced

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

Fear. which is just a label i have applied to a sensation. No it doesnt i dont think. But not sure

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Well its not communicating anything it just depends on the label or belief i have about the sense experience.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

Feels closed and rigid

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

It is ‘made’ of an experience of all of the above together with a label slapped on the tin. Like soup ha


Thank you for your patience
Eternally grateful
Ceylan

[warissem]

Good morning

You are doing a good job here. Here are some comments :

It is both. Or rather i noticed every sensation was kind of labelled “i”, im not sure im explaining clearly. But i think i need to sit with the question more.

What remains when all the labels (me, I, …) are gone?
What is this “I” noticing sensation ?
Is a sensation aware?

No. i cannot see a link In direct experience. but conceptually yes they are linked like separate pieces of the same puzzle that is the concept of “me”. Not sure if that makes sense.

Please stay with direct experience, the thoughts know nothing.

What is noticing (being aware) of thoughts, body and beliefs?

I don't think anything is being aware. It is just awareness itself. it is all just things arising. that's it

Yes, how do you feel to see this?

Describe this "I" which is still on the other side of the gate?

A bag of thoughts and sensations haha

How can thoughts and sensations go on the other side?
Is there awareness of these thoughts and sensations?

Is there a you, a separate self knowing thoughts and sensations ?

Look at this sentence : I want to go through the illusion of a separate self.
Is this sentence SEEN as a thought?
OR
is there an "I" saying it?
Is there an entity behind the "I" which is wanting something?

Look again at these pointers and give answers through direct experience :
Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

It is ‘made’ of an experience of all of the above together with a label slapped on the tin. Like soup ha

When there are no labels « sense of self », what is here in direct experience ?

Thank you for your patience

You are much welcome

Nour

[Ceylan]

Good Morning

What remains when all the labels (me, I, …) are gone?

Mmm simply awareness itself

What is this “I” noticing sensation ?

It is a thought.

Is a sensation aware?

No awareness precedes sensation. sensations only exist because there is awareness for sensations to arise in.

I don't think anything is being aware. It is just awareness itself. it is all just things arising. that's it

Yes, how do you feel to see this?

It feels good, like a release. A relaxing.

How can thoughts and sensations go on the other side?

They can not. ha because there isn't an other side. just awareness. and that is already here and always has been.

Is there awareness of these thoughts and sensations?

Yes there is awareness of the thoughts and sensations.

Is there a you, a separate self knowing thoughts and sensations ?

No. there is only awareness

Look at this sentence : I want to go through the illusion of a separate self.
Is this sentence SEEN as a thought?
OR
is there an "I" saying it?
Is there an entity behind the "I" which is wanting something?

No i can see now that that is just a thought being seen, the “i” is also just a thought.

Look again at these pointers and give answers through direct experience :
Does the sense of self have a location?

No, i cant locate it

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

How can it have a shape or size, its just a thought? All i can find for evidence of the sense of self is just the thought.

When there are no labels « sense of self », what is here in direct experience ?

Just awareness, and within that awareness, thoughts, sounds, visuals, etc.


Ceylan

[warissem]

Dear Ceylan

Glad to read your last post.
Is there a you, a separate self in any shape or form, was it ever?

Is there a you, an entity to whom experience happens?

Is there a chooser, a decision maker?

Do you have free will?

Best wishes

[Ceylan]

Hey Nour

A few posts ago you said

This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

can you explain this i don't understand what you mean. start and end of what. what expectations?




in reply to your latest post.

Is there a you, a separate self in any shape or form, was it ever?

I cannot find a 'me', only sounds, sensations, thoughts, visual appearances

Is there a you, an entity to whom experience happens?

I cannot find an entity. only the happening. nothing for it to happen to.

Is there a chooser, a decision maker?

i find only thoughts. and then movements or action/sensations/visual appearances.
no. there is no i to have free will. there is just happenings


I see this clearly when i sit and focus and LOOK but in daily life this isn't seen, will it slowly integrate? this new vision?


Best wishes
Ceylan

[warissem]

Dear Ceylan

This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

can you explain this i don't understand what you mean. start and end of what. what expectations?

In the early post, I asked questions about your expectations regarding the seeing through the illusion of a separate self. Your expectations are quite realistic. That is why I haven't come back to them. "start and end" of our dialog.

I see this clearly when i sit and focus and LOOK but in daily life this isn't seen, will it slowly integrate? this new vision?

it is not a new vision but a noticing of awareness : being aware of being aware. Anyway, when this is seen it cannot be unseen. The seeing through the illusion of a separate self is the beginning of an exploration not an end. There are ancient habits, beliefs, conditioning which are still operating.

Now, I invite you to explore the body.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Nour

[Ceylan]

Hey Nour
Sorry for the delay

I am a single parent and it can be difficult to find time. life appears to be moving fast ha. I also often fall asleep when trying to focus or meditate haha which looking at it now might actually just be resistance too! Anyway here are my findings.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No, just sensations. And a thought that labels it as heavy or light. Mmm i don't know. Because the body does have weight? Im confused im finding these exercises trickier.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Mm it feels like there is shape, but i am not sure if it is old thoughts, or like the shape etched in my mind so when i close my eyes i can still ‘feel’ a shape. but after a second look it feels like it is just endless space no shape or edges.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

When the eyes are closed i cannot find a boundary only a sensation and it is hard to find the edges of the sensation. But with eyes open I am looking and can see a clear boundary between body and clothing.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Again, with eyes closed only a sensation is found, but with eyes open there is definitely a boundary. But i can see that within awareness there is no separation just the content of awareness can seem separate. The seer and the seen

Is there an inside or an outside?

I wouldnt know or couldnt tell its just like a vast open field. Sensations are felt but its only the mind that is labelling them as inside or out. I can see they are just happening within the field of awarenss

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

Mm no i cant really tell or find an inside other than a label or thought

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

i cannot find an outside edge. when my eyes are closed my referral to 'my body' i can see is just a label i have given to the field of experience.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

The field of experience?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The actual experience of the body is just ‘experiencing’ itself. Mmm it is thoughts and visual appearances and sensations and sounds.


Thank you
Best wishes
Ceylan