Request to work with Elizabeth

[lalla]

Well, here it is Sunday.
Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Please look and describe what is found.
Although many automatic thoughts still refer back to the I throughout the day, when looking is present, no I can be found What is found is hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling...and thoughts arising and passing away, a process breathing itself.

2) Explain in detail what 'your self' is and how it works. How on earth did it come to this?
The self is a largely unchallenged cultural thought construction reinforced by conditioning since birth (probably even in utero). Born with no sense of separation, the infant is named, personal pronouns are used over and over again. At some point just around the age of 3 years--I’ve just watched it with my grandson--the idea of being a separate individual is solidified and reinforced.
Don’t know how it came to this, but referring to a self is enormously convenient, probably necessary, for navigating life in this culture. When I think about it, it’s hard to imagine life any other way. How could there be stories without separation and duality? oops, did this question refer to a specific self?
What is ‘my self’ and how does it work? The story of my self is a view I bought into but often wondered about. It is a continual layering of thoughts and stories about an imagined separation with the usual sorrows and joys and dramas and with interjections of humor and questioning along the way.

3) How would you explain this 'no you' thing to a high-achieving, yet distressed student ?
I would begin by asking her or him to show me their I. I would point out the physical life processes--breathing, eating, pooping--that demonstrate fuzzy borders and a lack of separation. I would ask what becomes of the oxygen breathed into the lungs and the carbon dioxide which is exhaled, or the nutrients absorbed from the food and then the stuff that’s excreted that looks pretty different than the what was eaten. Perhaps I would demonstrate with a piece of paper. Is it really a piece of paper or the tree that produced the pulp or the person who planted the tree, etc. (This explanation of no self which can be found in Thich Nhat Hanh’s writings provided me with my first experience of understanding/knowing no-self) Then I might return and ask about who/what breathes, hears, sees, tastes, etc. I think the best way to explain is the way it works on this site--by asking questions so the student has the opportunity to look for her/himself.

From this moment's perspective, is it clear that awakening has happened?
I must say that I had an expectation that it would be different that what I’m experiencing. I think I had expectations about being more engaged in the present moment and less likely to get lost in thought. :-o

And, gosh, over the course of this interval, I’ve really missed the dailiness of engaging in this conversation.

Much love to you dear Elizabeth.
Linda

[lalla]

Elizabeth-I woke up this morning and wanted to add to the explanation to the high-achieving, yet distressed student...forgot to tell her/him about thoughts and how convincing they can be. Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, etc...in a rush out the door. Happy morning to you. Love , Linda

[Elizabeth]

Linda, I am highly tempted to pass this as perfect answers, but am going to hang out here a little longer. Perfect answers is not facing directly into the knowing.
Give a you a little more time to look at the perpetual seeking and doubt machinery.
Is anything wrong with seeking and doubt?
Love, a lot. E

[lalla]

:-)
It's so obvious when you ask the question.
A bow to you masterful wordsmith and dear heart, Elizabeth.
In deep gratitude and with much love, Linda
And sitting with the perpetual seeking and doubt machinery to see if anything else comes up for a few days sounds like it could be useful.

[lalla]

Dear Elizabeth,
Attention floating away here after an intense weekend of looking--am thinking that returning to engagement in dialog which requires writing which creates clarity might be more effective than just sitting. Just really worked myself into some knots around semantics...can there really be that much attachment to the story? Is anyone ever just pissed off to see there is no I? that it's just an enormous layering of thoughts and stories? just doesn't seem that it could be this little of a shift...Maybe I shouldn't be reading all these other stories/exchanges...always scouring for a clue that will allow the magical shift. The perpetual seeking and doubt machinery is in much too good working order. Oh the mysterious causes and conditions. It's a relief to be back here. One hundred thank yous and much love, Linda

[Elizabeth]

Hi Linda, Was just thinking of you, and here we are :-) Hug to a you.
Yes, it is entirely possible to be pissed on seeing the big joke.
Mostly just amazed at how, yes, it can be this simple. It's all thought. Turtles, all the way down.
If it's all a thought, is any of it true?
Is any thought true?
Try to find ONE thought that you can absolutely tell us is true. Incontrovertible.
Please give at least one example of a thought that you are trying to prove out.
Love, Elizabeth

[lalla]

Hi Elizabeth, I can see and know that if ‘it’s all a thought, then none of it could be true.’ However, here there is a physical sensation in the head which accompanies the thought, “Does not compute. Does not compute,” as a response. I’m still trying to wrap my mind around this idea and it’s not happening. (an unwillingness to let go?)

Is there one thought that I can absolutely tell us is true? How about the thought that no thought is true? Or how about a thought like if I want “A” to happen I should do “B?” Or how about the thought that turning in a ballot will increase it’s chances of getting counted? (probably depends on what state ya live in ;-) I’m getting how names for everything aren’t true; they’re just labels. What about the thoughts around relativity? These give you an idea or how the mind has been racing in circles these last couple days. Yikes...okay I guess it will probably have to be conceded that no thought is true, but these thoughts here keep hammering on about semantics and what does true mean etc, etc. At the same time I see this life as an ongoing eruption of energy processes unfolding...I keep waiting for a kick, but maybe there isn’t one. Hope is a thing with feathers...exasperatedly yours with love, Linda

[Elizabeth]

One of my favourite poems!

I noticed that thoughts had me convinced that an I needed to hold onto to them, or something terrible would happen to a me.
They weren't real subtle about it :-)
That grasping is painful, isn't it?

The need to grasp, let's turn and look at that.
Please look at the hands. They are empty, yes? Make a tight fist. Now relax and open. Let the palms open outwards and the arms float up. Expand. The tummy will probably relax.
Every time you observe a contraction in the body/mind, look at what it is trying to tell you. Probably just trying to protect a you, in all innocence.
Ask it if it can let go, just for a moment. Allow the body to relax and expand. Now check back with the sensation/thought/emotion.

Is it OK to let go of it? Not needing to banish it or never feel or think it again, just, this time, let it go?
Do we need to hold onto thoughts for the world to stay a safe place?

Much love, Elizabeth

[lalla]

Yes, grasping is painful.
Dear Elizabeth,
I don’t think you’ve given me an exercise more heart opening and joyous than this one. That motion of opening the palms and letting the arms float up is magical. I love the gift of having this in the proverbial back pocket as an antidote to contractions. I did the exercise several times this morning then ran off to some challenging circumstances at work. I didn’t remember to do the exercise at work, but the challenging circumstances were held more as a puzzle than an upset. Now it’s just before bed; I’ve just repeated the exercise, and sit here with a grateful smile. namaste’
and much love Linda
p.s. "Do we need to hold onto thoughts for the world to stay a safe place?" No, tho this is often forgotten...will try to use this question as a little mantra.

[Elizabeth]

Well, OK. :-)
It's the joy, Linda. As far as I'm concerned, you are through. Will put this thread up for confirmation.
Really grateful for this conversation.
Love.

[lalla]

Gratitude overflowing back at you and much love, Linda

[Elizabeth]

Heh, one question from a really good guide (we check each other's work as we become partial to the people we talk to :-) )

"ask her again if it is clear now that shift has happened; any doubts, anything still missing?"

Much love, Elizabeth

[lalla]

Dear Elizabeth,
I can see now that the shift has been subtle and that I was expecting a bang. Also see that it’s only another threshold--a beginning to seeing more clearly the attachments to stories and positions aka thoughts. How it feels is that the implications are still dawning, and that is what (along with expecting the hallelujahs) fueled the doubt earlier.
Love all around, Linda

[Elizabeth]

Nice, dear Linda. My friend read that and wishes to know...
"if uncomfortable feelings like sadness, fear, jealousy,... arise, will that mean that there is a separate self? What will be the reaction?"

[lalla]

Dear Elizabeth and friend,
This was a perfect day for this question. If those uncomfortable feelings arise there won’t be a separate self. However, it doesn’t mean a strong I feeling won’t arise out of habit as happened earlier this evening. Grumpy (but beloved) husband told me that he would be bringing a 10ft rubber boat home in the next couple weeks, and, man, the I immediately identified with the story--being majorly pissed off at him for bringing more stuff(junk;-) (probably in need of repair) into our yard. In an annoyed tone of voice I let him know he’d have to get rid of “x” first and made a suggestion about where he might store it...still with annoyed tone of voice. Even with recognizing no I, I held on for several more minutes (in silence) unable to let go until it finally passed...I was driving, so couldn’t do that wonderful exercise, which I probably wouldn’t have remembered because I was so stuck...anyhow, it was one of those mind-boggling conundrums of seeing and still not being able to get off a position immediately. There was a thought of maybe not being through the gate after all. Now there is a sense of eye-rolling annoyance about the boat, but hey, I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. Much gratitude and love, Linda