What if

[John78365]

Thank you for your understanding 🙏

What makes you drawn to more handholding? Are you worried you may "miss something"? Are you worried you may do things wrong?

Yes. Weirdly though, I'm more worried about missing something than doing something wrong. I fear I might just continue to go in circles and overlook what I need to see. One analogy that comes to mind is looking into a lake and failing to see your face reflecting on the surface, until someone points it out. I can hear and conceptually understand that these thoughts are the very thing that are keeping me under the spell, but I'm not experiencing it - and part of me seems to not accept it.

When you look now, do you find anything in your experience called "stuff you may have crafted and are not aware of that is holding you back"? Or is this just something you imagine, and then worry about?

Yes to the latter. If I stop entertaining those thoughts and look at the blanket in front of me, those thoughts lose a lot of their substance and power. But there is still in the background a kind of echo, at least for a while, and the nagging sense that "I should really be paying attention to them". As I indulge these thoughts, I have to consciously rebuild the narrative, which ironically doesn't comes naturally. In a sense, I do experience that stuff in the form of feelings, like a shortness of breath in my chest.

"I don't know what I don't know" comes to mind from the real of conceptual understanding. Not being aware of non-duality being a possibility sounds like it would reduce the chances of looking and experiencing it. Apparently this happens in rare cases still, but doesn't seem to be the norm. This is one of the base assumption that is fueling all this. In the same way, there might be more ideas/concepts my mind hasn't been in contact with which paradoxically would soften its grasp. There is also the assumption that the answer is in the "doing". I really don't like that one being challenged.

It sounds like you're looking for reassurance, like you want a checklist of conditioning that you can tick off so you can feel like you're making progress and getting closer to "awakening" or whatever you're looking for here.

Yes. I could argue I'm not after a checklist that guarantees success but more of a "due diligence" kind of checklist, "I did my part". This sounds like a refinement to try and work around, hide or justify the need for reassurance though.
Processes reassure me, as they relieve me of the responsibility of mistakes to some extent. They are also predictable. So yes I naturally find myself mapping processes onto life, to try and manage what can be automated (including at the level of thoughts).

If there's anything you should investigate, it's this

I'm not sure I get it, what does "this" refer to here? Not avoiding the sensations that arise?

Bring up these uncomfortable situations. Tell me why you think they're uncomfortable. Tell me how you reacted.

As I'm writing, two of those uncomfortable situations occurred. People coming to my desk and interrupting my train of thoughts. I think what makes this uncomfortable is:
- risking to lose an important thought
- exerting effort to find it again
I think I see thoughts as currency, and effort as a resource, both of which feel limited and precious, and not to be squandered. These are resources I use to assert my value, be seen and appreciated. I could venture this might go back to childhood, where getting good grades was a way to access my parents love.

How I reacted?
Inside, I feel an immense impatience and rage, again in my chest. I just want to scream.
From the outside, I think I come off impatient, cold and distant, since I'm doing everything on the fringe of being socially acceptable to end the interaction as fast as possible: monosyllabic answers, not sustaining eye contact, impatience in my tone.

Note that this is even before any content is exchanged. The content itself might aggravate this discomfort further. For instance, the interruption might somewhat turns into an argument, or is something I disagree with. Then another layer of urge surfaces, proving the other wrong and destroying them through the power of thoughts. You can imagine the layer of self-judgment that comes with this.

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Some meta points: I'm unhappy about these answers. They feel like two steps back. There is also probably a lot of repetition from previous answers. I was somehow starting to feel some relief from from the need to understand and conceptualize, but as I kept writing, only the conceptual stuff poured through. Even now, I'm debating the "shoulds" of how I approach it, and this feels important and in need of attention. And I can sense of level of recursion going on, fuelled by "maybe this should be approached differently", "maybe looking at it differently should be looked at differently", etc..

A part of me is amused by the nonsense though, another part is exhausted by the unmanageable complexity.

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Thanks for the follow-up questions, let me get back to you in a bit on those.

[ty0]

What if I told you there's nothing I know that you don't know, and there's nothing I see that you don't see? You're trying to "see something", "do something", "realise something", but what if the difference between us isn't what I've done/realised/seen, but rather what I don't do that you do?

I'm not sure I get it, what does "this" refer to here? Not avoiding the sensations that arise?

Kinda. Investigate the uncomfortable sensations that arise with uncomfortable situations. Investigate the thoughts that come up that perpetuate these uncomfortable sensations. I'm guessing you go into a "how to stop feeling this" mode when things get ugly, but that's where the money is at. That's when you should be paying the most attention.

"I don't know what I don't know" comes to mind from the real of conceptual understanding.

I don't know what I don't know either.

Yes. I could argue I'm not after a checklist that guarantees success but more of a "due diligence" kind of checklist, "I did my part". This sounds like a refinement to try and work around, hide or justify the need for reassurance though.
Processes reassure me, as they relieve me of the responsibility of mistakes to some extent. They are also predictable. So yes I naturally find myself mapping processes onto life, to try and manage what can be automated (including at the level of thoughts).

The only thing you can do is get in the way. You've efforted your whole life, and this is not an effortful endeavour. Difficult feelings come up, then you effort, thinking about why they came up and how to get rid of them. You imagine a situation that you wouldn't like to happen, then you effort, thinking about how it can be circumvented. Something nice comes along, then you effort, trying to figure out how to hold on to it and make it last longer. All your effort now is in the hopes of securing a more pleasant experience in the future by "seeing something" that you imagine must exist. But effort is hard to let go of. Effort makes you feel like you have some semblance of control. Effort feels like "you". Without effort, without trying, what would you be?

I think I see thoughts as currency, and effort as a resource, both of which feel limited and precious, and not to be squandered. These are resources I use to assert my value, be seen and appreciated. I could venture this might go back to childhood, where getting good grades was a way to access my parents love.

It's not possible for me to say "thoughts aren't valuable" and then your belief in them being valuable dropping instantly, so go ahead and feel what it feels like whenever that belief is triggered.

A part of me is amused by the nonsense though, another part is exhausted by the unmanageable complexity.

[ty0]

All the complexity is what you make up.

[John78365]

We can start with you feeling self-conscious about staring at the sky. What is this about? The sky is beautiful. Would you be self-conscious about listening to music? Why don't you go ahead and do it to find out more about this discomfort?

Staring at the sky looks curious from the outside, and invites a conversation, an interaction. I just can't pinpoint what it is easily. Yesterday, as I was standing outside, a relative passed by and pretty much ignored me. But I was ready to fight. I was already boiling inside, imagining how I could respond in a way that I know would hurt them back, by remaining private, and not opening up.

As I'm looking back, I'm trying to figure out if it is because of the difficult nature of the relationship with them. And for sure, in my head, the scenario plays out differently with different people, and with less intensity, but the initial movement is to recoil or push back.

It sounds like I'm trying to protect something, but I don't quite know why. Or is it just the fear of failure, judgment and rejection somewhat hidden underneath (underneath what by the way... ?).

I know and see this anxiety and aversion from real-time expression in many part of my life. I used to play an instrument, and the thought of performing a well rehearsed piece was already quite nerve-racking. Presentations, shooting demo videos, open conversations at work, etc.. are these days things I viscerally hate. They require a lot of effort just to be ok, and don't flow.

Even if I picture doing this in public, and somebody comes up to me and say "the sky is beautiful, isn't it?", this anxiety comes online.

As I'm writing this, somebody came into the room, and I had to switch windows, to not expose what I'm writing. Even if you - the receipient of this message - were to watch me type this, I would feel very uncomfortable exposing the painful process of how I got there, the edits, the pauses, the doubts, the pace.

I think I feel threatened by any way the inner workings of my mind can be exposed (and judged), probably like anything else I might identify with.

Investigate the uncomfortable sensations that arise with uncomfortable situations. Investigate the thoughts that come up that perpetuate these uncomfortable sensations.

What kind of movement is "investigate"? More of light, patient, silent and determined curiosity? Or more of a word based inquiry, with questions trying to clarify sensations and thoughts?
When I wrote yesterday about the sky (above), I went into full-on analysis mode, but is it at all helpful to expand like that? When you invite me to look into/see/find out about things, am I not shooting myself in the foot by trying to put it into words - when these are just openings to experience reality rather than trying to box it in?

I'm guessing you go into a "how to stop feeling this" mode when things get ugly, but that's where the money is at. That's when you should be paying the most attention.

I think it's more of an impatient judgmental "how could I possibly be stuck with this again?" And then either "I'm such a XYZ for feeling this", which then turns into hopelessness, or more belligerant thoughts if I deem the situation unfair. Feeling down is somewhat familiar and comfortable, so I'm not even sure I'm trying to resist and make it stop it in those moments. The anger on the other hand feels justified and the thoughts would go more in the direction of keeping it alive for a while.

but rather what I don't do that you do?

But effort is hard to let go of. Effort makes you feel like you have some semblance of control. Effort feels like "you". Without effort, without trying, what would you be?

Thank you for those.

[ty0]

It sounds like you're afraid of being seen, just like you wrote about being exposed and judged. What if everyone knew everything about you? You wouldn't be safe. Are you safe now, hiding behind walls? You've chosen a persona to display, do you feel safe wearing it like a shield? Isn't it tiring?

What kind of movement is "investigate"? More of light, patient, silent and determined curiosity? Or more of a word based inquiry, with questions trying to clarify sensations and thoughts?
When I wrote yesterday about the sky (above), I went into full-on analysis mode, but is it at all helpful to expand like that? When you invite me to look into/see/find out about things, am I not shooting myself in the foot by trying to put it into words - when these are just openings to experience reality rather than trying to box it in?

By investigate I mean observe. Maybe a question or two like "What is this?", "What does this feel like?", but not much more analysis than that.

Spend a bit of time doing nothing. Observe and note any effort or trying that arises. Ask yourself "What am I without trying?" or "What am I without struggling?"

[John78365]

Are you safe now, hiding behind walls? You've chosen a persona to display, do you feel safe wearing it like a shield? Isn't it tiring?

There used to be a time when I actually had multiple personas going on. I realized it when two of the groups I was belonging to would meet, I would feel uncomfortable exposing one persona to the other group, and vice-versa. This softened now, but I would say is still present at work. It still feels safer to present a filtered version of myself, and keep some of the things private. It is tiring at times, and to some extent isolating, so I'm playing more and more with pushing that boundary but there might always be one, I don't know. Maybe I'm also mixing up sharing private thoughts vs being and behaving in a more liberated way.

In other more private circles, I would imagine that the shield is lowered even further - although I can pinpoint some relationships where it is less so, where I feel a risk saying some of the things that I would otherwise consider saying.

Spend a bit of time doing nothing. Observe and note any effort or trying that arises. Ask yourself "What am I without trying?" or "What am I without struggling?"

This really appealed to me. Being given the permission to do nothing felt like such a relief. I noticed a few different things happen when I engage with this:
- my eyes sometimes keep shifting, as if they were looking for an answer in sights. One of the most prominent sensations I experience is a tension around my eyes.
- when an experience slightly out of the ordinary happens, a part of me gets really excited and asks "is this it?", which triggers a judging thought.
- I obviously often get lost in thoughts. When this experience comes to an end, another series of thoughts takes over and tries to bring back to mind what it is that I'm trying not to do here. So I come back to stillness in a bit of a roundabout way: "oh I was just lost in thoughts! That's bad! Oh no, that's fine actually, no need to be judgmental about it. Just observe, no need to engage or react."
- then there is the blanking, either through a sensation or a sight. This is in a way akin to being lost in thoughts, except there are no thoughts, just a door handle, or a cup. I find that quite perplexing, and find myself wanting to keep the premise of the activity in mind, just so I don't get too absorbed? Not sure, but it feels like it is no better than being lost in thoughts. At the same time I don't want to start creating hierarchies of experiences, but I don't see how sitting still and, for instance, planning my day in my mind is helpful. So to try and not forget what I'm (paradoxically enough) not doing, I keep coming back to the inquiry, to keep it fresh in my mind. And this feels like a whole lot of doing to me... So I'm not sure how to go about this. I've even thought at writing the inquiry on a piece of paper and setting it in front of me so I wouldn't have to play this ping pong in my mind.

Similarly to the "looking at the sky" exercise, I stood in the middle of store yesterday, doing nothing. Once the awkwardness and the tension from the unrealized risk resided, I had a fleeting moment of deep peace.

Overall, I'm trying to observe and stay still more than filling every awake moment with doing. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with doing, but I can see how I sometimes "do" as a primary and often exclusive way to deal with the discomforts of life. I can also sense how "not doing" can become a "doing" if approached with too much contraction.

I've also felt some sadness recently about this whole endeavour, as though my life is passing me by and I'm stuck looking at it through a blurry and muddy pane of glass.

[ty0]

then there is the blanking, either through a sensation or a sight. This is in a way akin to being lost in thoughts, except there are no thoughts, just a door handle, or a cup. I find that quite perplexing, and find myself wanting to keep the premise of the activity in mind, just so I don't get too absorbed? Not sure, but it feels like it is no better than being lost in thoughts. At the same time I don't want to start creating hierarchies of experiences, but I don't see how sitting still and, for instance, planning my day in my mind is helpful. So to try and not forget what I'm (paradoxically enough) not doing, I keep coming back to the inquiry, to keep it fresh in my mind. And this feels like a whole lot of doing to me... So I'm not sure how to go about this. I've even thought at writing the inquiry on a piece of paper and setting it in front of me so I wouldn't have to play this ping pong in my mind.

A lot of trying here. You don't have to remember what you're not doing when you're not doing anything, cause guess what? You're already not doing anything. Then does that mean you were doing it wrong and instead doing nothing would be doing it right? No. You can't do it wrong. There's nothing I've given you to do.

Would you judge yourself for being engrossed while listening to beautiful music? Would you judge yourself for being absorbed in eating a delicious meal?

- when an experience slightly out of the ordinary happens, a part of me gets really excited and asks "is this it?", which triggers a judging thought.

Well, the answer isn't that this is it or this isn't it. You're just imagining that there's an "it" to be by not doing anything. Of course this is it, this now is all there is, what else could there be? And if you have the thought "is this it?", the thought "is this it?" is a part of all there is.

You're still trying to get a certain something like a shift or an awakening or whatever, but this thing you're trying to get only exists as a thought. But that doesn't mean the opposite is true. "There's nothing to get" would be another thought in the opposite spirit. What I'm trying to say is I think you've played enough make-believe and could do with some time spent out of that imaginary world.

Similarly to the "looking at the sky" exercise, I stood in the middle of store yesterday, doing nothing. Once the awkwardness and the tension from the unrealized risk resided, I had a fleeting moment of deep peace.

That's great. Why don't you give yourself an hour of free time to not do anything at home and see how that goes. When boredom comes, note that you're just thinking about what you could be doing instead. Boredom is not so innocent. Boredom is the urge to get rid of uncomfortable sensations like guilt from thoughts like "What could I be doing to make better use of my time?". More uncomfortable sensations include dread from thoughts like "What's the point of this? What's the point of anything I do?"

[John78365]

Why don't you give yourself an hour of free time to not do anything at home and see how that goes

I haven't managed to do that *properly* yet. What I mean by "properly" is that I usually stay 30 / 45 min laying down in bed doing nothing after waking up. But that feels a bit like cheating, because those 45 minutes are somewhat earmarked for that, so it is easy to go along with it, especially if I'm lost in thoughts about what's on the agenda for the day. On the other hand, interrupting the flow of day, pausing and doing nothing, feels a lot more wasteful and just doesn't get prioritized.

The closest I've got to it was standing in the kitchen for 15 minutes, watching the clock every 5 minutes, and sort of approaching it like a challenge, like something uncomfortable that I needed to do and would grant me a reward.

As a result, I've taken baby steps, and I'm punctuating my day with "wasteful idle moments". I've found transitioning between activities is a good time for that.

There's nothing I've given you to do

I find myself still struggling with the whole idea of doing / not doing. As you can tell from above, I'm approaching "not doing" as something to do. At least, that's how it seems to me, given how familiar the resistance to not doing feels—and how much it reminds me of the resistance to doing.

I'm also not sure about how to integrate this non-doing into everyday life, especially regarding work. Clearly I can't be doing nothing for 8 hours a day a claim a paycheck, so I don't know where to stand. And it annoys me that I'm stuck at such a litteral level.

I've had a daily checklist of things to do for a while, like positive habits. Those too are difficult to let go of - and maybe that's not the point - but I found it interesting to turn those "todos" into "suggested activities for the day" instead. Just removing the checkbox in front of them was already a relief.

You can't do it wrong

When I read this, I can't help but think that being absorbed in thoughts is the enemy here. Even if this thought about "being absorbed in thought" subsides in the moment, I still don't see conceptually how spinning around the same thought pattern isn't detrimental to seeing clearly. As if I'm trying to see the bottom of lake while the water on the surface is agitated.

So I find myself looking for other ways to read it:
- "*you* can't do it wrong" because there is no "you" that can be doing anything
- or "you can't do *it* wrong" because there is nothing that can be done
- or "you can't do it *wrong*" because right or wrong are just concepts
- ...

Would you judge yourself for being engrossed while listening to beautiful music? Would you judge yourself for being absorbed in eating a delicious meal?

I don't know, this doesn't really happen to me. Although I could guess I would if this lasted for too long or started competing with other more "productive" priorities. I can see how I both envy and judge people who can get absorbed in their hobbies that way.

I'm currently taking care of a cat, and get absorbed into just watching him do nothing, or do something so intensely for a second, then going back to doing nothing, with the same intensity. That's the closest I've gotten recently to being engrossed with something guilt-free. I find it inspiring.

A lot of trying here

Indeed. Now I really feel like doing nothing :D

[ty0]

I'm currently taking care of a cat, and get absorbed into just watching him do nothing, or do something so intensely for a second, then going back to doing nothing, with the same intensity. That's the closest I've gotten recently to being engrossed with something guilt-free. I find it inspiring.

Hahahah, that's nice. Look man, I'm not asking you to not feel guilty or not have these thoughts about productivity pop up when doing nothing. I'm only asking you to spend some time not doing anything. You have an idea of what this is "supposed to look like" so you get frustrated when it's not what you imagine it should be like. But I'm not even asking you to not have this expectation and not get frustrated.

You have a lot of emotional charge and attach a lot of importance to things you imagine. I only tell you to not do anything and you attach the goal of "seeing clearly" and whatnot to it. There's this constant discomfort you experience that you constantly distract yourself from and I just want you to have time when you're not distracting yourself from it. Frustration and guilt serve to cover up more uncomfortable emotions. Maybe when you feel these emotions, you're not doing anything wrong, you just think you're doing something wrong. But that's like hearing a particular sound and thinking "Oop, that means I'm doing something wrong".

[John78365]

I only tell you to not do anything and you attach the goal of "seeing clearly" and whatnot to it

Something just came up about this. Doing nothing is becoming increasingly easier, in that I don't feel much resistance or frustration when sitting in silence (I still feel resistance to committing to it though, I've only done it a handful of time since you suggested it). Sitting in silence without attaching a goal doesn't happen though. I can't seem to be able to just do that without thinking of an ulterior motive - at least at some point.

So maybe I could try coming at it from another angle: doing something pointless. Maybe the absurdity of goal setting would be more apparent, since there would be nothing to be gained from the doing. What do you think?

[ty0]

That sounds like a good idea. In Zen traditions, they have the practice of looking at a blank wall. That's about it. There isn't a point and that's the whole "practice", if you can even call it that.

There are surely other things you could do like counting upwards indefinitely, but would you really not attach any ulterior motive to these activities? You tell me