Breaking the first fetter

[Yuri4Nothing]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
First, there’s an innate deep trust that is beyond the conceptual understanding. The trust was uncovered and pointed by the help of teacher, Dr. Angelo Dilullo, last year. There has been many glimpses of experiencing noself, just a being, but there’s a fear and sadness to let go of the illusion of ‘me.’ Feels like ‘I am’ ready for a guider/teacher

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for an authentic and well realized guider to help me guide through the fetter work especially in the first 3. One who helps me not only conceptually understand to see through self, but also to experience it. Need someone who can spot my bias and bs and be able to tell me. One who checks on the “just this.”

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Help me see why there’s fear and sadness to let go of the illusion of ‘me’. Partly because it feels like the sense of me illusion is comforting and familiar so it’s like breaking up with myself. Also there’s fear of experiencing freedom without the illusion of self because it feels like “don’t know what to do anymore.”

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Two years. Attended two in-person 7 day silent retreat and three 5 day online semi-silent meditation by Dr. Angelo Dilullo. 3-5 times per week either guided, silent, or inquiry meditation. Currently, finishing up Fetter 1 through the awakening curriculum by Dr. Pernille.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

hi Yuri4Nothing
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

I am looking for an authentic and well realized guider to help me guide through the fetter work especially in the first 3. One who helps me not only conceptually understand to see through self, but also to experience it. Need someone who can spot my bias and bs and be able to tell me. One who checks on the “just this.”

At LU, we don’t deal particularly with the Ten Fetters (or just the first 3), but I am familiar with the work of Todd and Pernille.

Here, we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on direct experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

We are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[Yuri4Nothing]

Hello Rali,

Thank you for having me and agreeing to be my guider!

You can call me Yuri. I like how our names rhyme.

I clearly understand how LU is different from any other spiritual practices such as Fetter work. I will respect the LU form and its system by following the admin and your suggestions.

I’m in the Pacific Standard Time in the US. How about yourself?

Cheers,

Yuri

[Yuri4Nothing]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
First, there’s an innate deep trust that is beyond the conceptual understanding. The trust was uncovered and pointed by the help of teacher, Dr. Angelo Dilullo, last year. There has been many glimpses of experiencing noself, just a being, but there’s a fear and sadness to let go of the illusion of ‘me.’ Feels like ‘I am’ ready for a guider/teacher

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for an authentic and well realized guider to help me guide through the fetter work especially in the first 3. One who helps me not only conceptually understand to see through self, but also to experience it. Need someone who can spot my bias and bs and be able to tell me. One who checks on the “just this.”

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Help me see why there’s fear and sadness to let go of the illusion of ‘me’. Partly because it feels like the sense of me illusion is comforting and familiar so it’s like breaking up with myself. Also there’s fear of experiencing freedom without the illusion of self because it feels like “don’t know what to do anymore.”

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Two years. Attended two in-person 7 day silent retreat and three 5 day online semi-silent meditation by Dr. Angelo Dilullo. 3-5 times per week either guided, silent, or inquiry meditation. Currently, finishing up Fetter 1 through the awakening curriculum by Dr. Pernille.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi Yuri

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I’m in the Pacific Standard Time in the US. How about yourself?

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

I will respect the LU form and its system by following the admin and your suggestions.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Yuri4Nothing]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for the technical pointers!

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

The assumption is not much difference than right now. Perhaps experiencing and living the reality without sense of self.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

The expectation is to live in the reality as it’s happening without giving such significance to my mind. However, I’m a bit scared to even type the word expectation here because LU said there’s nothing to expect from this.

3. What do you want not to happen?

Ugh… so many not wanting wants here. But here are the main three:

A. Not want to stop this process or go too extreme because I usually do things in life “all or nothing,” therefore, I find finding moderation/balance/equilibrium is challenging.

B. Not want to become a phony fake spiritual seeker and create another identity like that.

C. Not want to lose any limbs, become a vegetable, become disfigured due to flesh eating bacteria, chemical burn, or fire burns, and not want to kill myself.

4. What are you hoping for?

I’m hoping to stop trying to find and figure out myself and who I am. This has been going on since my childhood and so far I haven’t found and figure out myself. I used to believe that “I am the one who makes my own destiny in life and I can tackle down anything that comes up in my way.” Now I’m just tired of striving to be the best me for everyone.

5. What is missing?

I don’t know. Nothing is really missing when I feel into it. Maybe just missing out on what’s really right front of me while trying to find out what’s missing.

[poppyseed]

Hi Yuri

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Ugh… so many not wanting wants here. But here are the main three:
A. Not want to stop this process or go too extreme because I usually do things in life “all or nothing,” therefore, I find finding moderation/balance/equilibrium is challenging.
B. Not want to become a phony fake spiritual seeker and create another identity like that.

Like I said, it’s just a shift of perception. This could happen only if you haven’t seen through the illusion of self. There is nothing to prove to anyone, literally ;)

C. Not want to lose any limbs, become a vegetable, become disfigured due to flesh eating bacteria, chemical burn, or fire burns, and not want to kill myself.

:))) I hear you. But then again “wanting” and “not wanting” is just that – thoughts about how reality should be different.
How can an illusion change anything? An illusion is an illusion. It has never existed and it never will…

Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker, no decision maker. Things are just happening.

What we’ll see soon is that fear is just a sensation with a thought. Fear has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes - the survival of the imaginary self. So, obviously when threatened there will be fear involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with fear initially, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary...

Now I’m just tired of striving to be the best me for everyone.

That sounds tiring...

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[Yuri4Nothing]

If you look for the I, what is there?

When looking for the “I”, there’s a general sense of this body being. Besides the mind created stories and identities, the ears are hearing the heartbeat and the whole body feeling the rhythmic pulsation. The pulsatile feeling traveling up and down the body like busy highway. When the eyes are looking at the face in the mirror, there’s a familiar stranger staring back, like that being in the mirror is as interested as I’m looking into that to see what’s behind. Then the vision gets distorted and that being in the mirror starts to morph or change features. The mind is in the background doing its job, trying to convince that this’s silly or reminding that there’re chores to do. So feels like there’s just this “spoof of feeling” when I look for the “I.”

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

A relief comes up. It’s like taking a break from a character or role that was so overwhelmed from the anticipation of all the duties and responsibilities.

Where exactly did you look?

I looked where the question seems to be coming from and heard which is in the auditory where the question is being asked by my voice. When I followed where the voice was, it seems like somewhere between behind my eyes. I then looked between and behind my eyes, only to found a being in the mirror trying to see the same thing. Then I and the being in the mirror just looked. It didn’t go anywhere than that.

What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

to be exact, found myself looking at the mirror, literally. There was a “spoof of feeling” that felt intimate.

[poppyseed]

Hi Yuri
Thank you for your honest reply! It gives me an idea where to begin. Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

So. there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[Yuri4Nothing]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for your guidance! I really appreciate you take your valuable time to respond to me. What a selfless action ☺️

Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:

I didn’t even know there was a way to look at no self. This’s good to practice before going further.

Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here. Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target.

Is there a difference between looking and seeing? Is looking is more to “find out” and seeing is just “seeing”? Do I need my eyes to look and see at no self? Seems like they’re not needed.

Also, it seems like looking with my eyes is the generic way I always perceived reality. Then there’s really curious looking beyond my eyes where the eyes aren’t needed to see. Not sure if it makes sense.

How to practice nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target? Is there any source controlling the attention focus? Or is the attention focus is just happening on its own? It feels incredibly difficult to stay or notice the nonverbal state because the mind is so fast to create labels. As soon as I notice nonverbal state, then it’s gone. Like what? Hehe

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Interesting experience and reaction after reading your reply three times. “I” felt frustrated in the chest and it contracted a bit. Then an assumption came up “I didn’t answer adequately and satisfy what Rali wanted to hear.” But underneath this assumption, there’s reactivity and frustration or anger when I realize that I’m not even close to seeing through self.

Thank you again and Happy New Year! Have a wonderful celebration.

Cheers,

Yuri

[poppyseed]

Hi Yuri

I didn’t even know there was a way to look at no self. This’s good to practice before going further.

Is there a difference between looking and seeing? Is looking is more to “find out” and seeing is just “seeing”? Do I need my eyes to look and see at no self? Seems like they’re not needed.

If you feel tension when trying to look at what is, you are trying too hard. Stop trying. Everyone knows how to look; it’s the most natural thing. Soften, breathe— smile even. Take your time to relax and simply notice what is happening in the present: sensations, muscle tension, feelings, subtle eye movements, sounds, smells. This sort of noticing is effortless; attention moves and focuses on different perceptions, different information coming in. Thoughts rush in to label what is being noticed. No special state is required; it’s everyday ordinary business.

If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, without forcing it, take a look and locate them – touch your pockets, look on the table, ping them if you have a smart tag. That’s how to look.

To look means, in this case, to focus, to notice. It could involve not only seeing, but the rest of senses too, i.e., hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, and thinking (the presence of thought, NOT its content)

Is that clear?

How to practice nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target? Is there any source controlling the attention focus? Or is the attention focus is just happening on its own? It feels incredibly difficult to stay or notice the nonverbal state because the mind is so fast to create labels.

Hopefully, you will be able to answer these for yourself :)

Please finish with the rest of questions! For future reference if you see a “?” you answer it, even if it is just “?” The exercise with the apple underneath is designed to illustrate looking.

Happy New Year!

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Yuri

Are we still doing the inquiry? We agreed on a regular correspondence...
Love
Rali

[Yuri4Nothing]

Hi Rali,

Are we still doing the inquiry?

Work and new years got in the way of doing inquiry since the last one. I apologize for not letting you know.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

I have read this several times but haven’t done the inquiry to answer it yet. I feel limited to express what is happening right now in words.

If you feel tension when trying to look at what is, you are trying too hard. Stop trying. Everyone knows how to look; it’s the most natural thing.

Since I read this, I don’t know how to look and describe the experience in writing. If everyone knows how to look and the most natural thing, then I feel like I’m the one who’s not doing it way it’s supposed to.

I will read other people’s topic and get an idea how this works and then will try again.

Thank you!

Kind regards,

Yuri

[poppyseed]

Hi Yuri

Since I read this, I don’t know how to look and describe the experience in writing. If everyone knows how to look and the most natural thing, then I feel like I’m the one who’s not doing it way it’s supposed to.

I will read other people’s topic and get an idea how this works and then will try again.

When I said that I meant that you are overcomplicating things, I did not want to question your intelligence :). Just relax and simply notice what is happening right now: notice how your body feels – sensations in feet or hands, muscle tension, touch the surface of the couch and feel the texture, sounds of cars passing, the smell of food cooking, etc .

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

I have read this several times but haven’t done the inquiry to answer it yet. I feel limited to express what is happening right now in words.

What I’m pointing here is that “apple” is just a label (thought) that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”, existing outside of the senses - that would be an assumption (thought). All you have is the senses, what is outside of the senses is just a guess/assumption. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste).
“Apple” is unknown because it doesn’t exist. Everything that thoughts labels as an apple exists as i.e. sound, smell, taste, colour, sensation and thoughts about an apple – certain experience. What you see hopefully in your DE - when looking at an “apple” - is a colour and a thought describing it (“apple”). The same description/label (“apple”) is used for other aspects of DE like specific tasting, smelling, and feeling (there’s no hearing with this label) that in the past have appeared together with this seeing in one combination or another. But does an inherent material object (“apple”) exist in DE? Is there anything to be smelled, touched, heard, etc outside of the senses without thought content? Or is just smell-ING (verb) labelled “object’s SMELL”, feeling labelled “object’s FEEL”, etc. and thought content/assumption that that the object exists in the first place?
All words are symbols. All symbols are conceptual. They are not reality. Reality is what actually is, regardless of the absence or the presence of any symbol or word. Reality is what still exists after we stopped thinking about it.
Like the word ‘apple’ is just a symbolic representation of something that is real – colour (seeing), taste (tasting), etc.
But is the word ‘apple’ the real thing itself? Even if we use different labels, those labels point to the same experience – like ‘fruit’ or ‘food’. If you are eating an apple, but you stop thinking about it, the apple (the experience which the word points to) won’t disappear.
The actual experience (DE) remains even in the absence of labels. In this case, the word points to the same experience of colours, smells, tastes, textures, what we collectively call as an apple.
While we are talking about labels, notice the difference between the different types.
We have words for experiences (through the five senses), like ‘apple’, and we have words that label something that cannot be experienced through the five senses. These ‘things’ can only be thought of, but never experienced, since they do not actually exist. They just imagined. Like the thoughts of Santa, economy, or country. That is the difference between experience and fiction.
Is this clear now? Please answer the question again having in mind the explanation above.
Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Yuri

This guiding won't work if you don't give me feedback. If you are stuck somewhere just talk to me and we can solve it together, but you have to give me something. Looking at other threads won't work, as everyone journey is unique. I wrote some further clarifications, so some feedback would be nice, provided that you are still interested in a inquiry.

Looking forward to hearing from you!
Love
Rali