Request for Guiding

[JussiL]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I do have an understanding that there is no self. If I do believe it in everyday life, thst I am not so sure. I have practised fetters but I am not sure which ones I have passed. The answer varies every week.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to work with a guide to solve questions I referred above. It would be great If the guide knows some fetter work. I do have some challenges for example with subject-object (and perspective). I have been in therapy 2,5 years so a lot of shadow work has been done.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Good dialoque, I quess. And questions. I have mostly read Tolle and Adyashanti and listened Pernilla and Todd from Awakening curriculum and Angelo and Ilona and all the other theathers. But I haven't had any real interaction with anyone.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have meditated several years. I have also have had many so called spiritual experiences, like "ego death" and so on. I am aware of my thoughts more or less all the time.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Anastacia42]

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

First, we'll go through a few basic pointers, so that we on the same page. After that, we'll see where you are. (so to speak)

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[JussiL]

Hi Stacy, thank You for guiding. You can call me Jussi. Our time zone is Helsnki +2GMT

How will life change?

I can't know how life will change. It would be dishonest to say that I don’t hope for peace, for example, but I understand that no state is permanent. It is what it is.
I think that seeing through oneself changes the perspective on things, life, oneself, the whole existence, but not the person themselves.

How will you change?

Everything is as it was before, but it is seen differently. I know that free will does not exist. However, I believe that “programming” will change in the long run. That too, I can't know.

What will be different?

I can't know for sure. However, I do not expect changes to happen. The process continues. I will continue to experience unpleasant feelings and suffering, but I will probably not cling to the feelings as before. I quess there will be ungoing battle with "ego" even if you know that it does not exist.

What is missing?

I would have answered these questions differently a year, a month, or two weeks ago. However, I have gone through several of Luchana’s and a couple of your correspondences, and right now it feels like nothing is missing. It would be wonderful, for example, to be free from worries about the future, but I don’t know how it will turn out.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning Jussi,

I'm near Boulder, Colorado, so it's 5:30 am Mointain Time. I'm awake off & on and you may get replies from me at just about any hour.

Your expectations are very realistic. That helps. Only fear & expectations can prevent seeing that there is no self.


Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving,

[JussiL]

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

Thinking about it doesn’t bring up strong emotions right now. I’ve been processing it for a couple of weeks. I’m somewhat puzzled by the question of whether things are predetermined or not. I don’t mean free will; I’ve accepted that I have no control. But I wonder if the “programming” changes, for example, through greater awareness (like seeing that there is no separate self). Does it affect the body-mind’s functioning over time, or are all our actions predetermined from start to finish? I think I can’t know, but I find myself hoping for the former. It would be a comforting thought that, for example, this conversation we’re having could somehow influence my behavior in the future, and thus I could provide a better life for my children by behaving more consciously at some point in the future. At the same time, I think that this matter cannot be grasped through direct experience, i.e., the senses, so it cannot be known either way. So it’s okay, either way.

[JussiL]

I

think that this matter cannot be grasped through direct experience

"Grasped" might be wtong word in this, better is "perceived".

Love! Jussi

[Anastacia42]

Yes. It's all just a big mystery. We can't know the answer.

Now show that you know Direct Experience:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[JussiL]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

At night, I woke up with an anxious thought: What if the idea that there is no self is just a thought created by the mind to ward off the pain caused by separation or something else? It is just a defense mechanism that has arisen as a result of the contemplation brought by the process.
During the day, however, I have returned to immediate experience and calmed down. The self does not seem to be found. Perhaps this also clarified the difference between believing and seeing. The belief that there is no self is also just a belief. Investigating and seeing are something else, although they probably partly overlap.
I did two very Christmassy sensory experience exercises. I had a walk (we finally have some snow here) and we decorated the Christmas tree.
Seeing the snow covering the trees and ground in the park
Smelling the crisp, fresh cold air
Feeling the hard stuff underfoot
Tasting the taste of a hot chocolate in a nearby cafe
Hearing the crunching sound in the snow
Thought:
Seeing the colors and shapes of the ornaments
Smelling the scent of the tree
Feeling the texture of the ornaments
Tasting the needle that I tried
Hearing the jingling of the decorations
Thought:

[Anastacia42]

Good morning here.

Glad you're getting some Christmas weather. We've had very little snow here, too.

I have a couple of resources for fear - a video and an exercise. Then I want you to re-read the Direct Experience pointer & do it again with your answer in the exact order & form as the example.

https://youtu.be/jKX1llYtlKE?si=FEJQ8xkZL9c-QydK

Here is an anxiety exercise that focuses a person in the present, and in a part of the brain that cannot do anxiety. Basically, go through each sense and say (or think) "I see/ hear/ feel/ taste/ touch ______________." A minute or two of each and usually anxiety is gone.

I see the couch.
I see the keyboard.
I see the glass. Etc.

I hear the train.
I hear the keys clacking.
I hear my breath. Etc.

I feel the couch under my butt.
I feel my fingers on the keys.
I feel the cold air. Etc.

I taste a metallic taste in my mouth.
I taste the coffee.
I taste the food. Etc.

I smell the humidity in the air.
I smell my husband's shampoo.
I smell the soap. Etc.

As far as I can tell, the only time this doesn't work is when someone won't do it.

Now re-do your reply in the format given. Why? Because it emphasizes the Sense better.

Loving

[JussiL]

Then I want you to re-read the Direct Experience pointer & do it again with your answer in the exact order & form as the example.

Hi Stacy. Thanks for the video, it’s helpful. I misunderstood the task or at least the reporting. Let’s try again:

Seeing a cat simply = shape / color
Smelling a cat, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth and softness of the cat, simply = sensation
Hearing the purring = sound
Thinking about petting the cat, simply = thought

Looking at childhood photos on a mobile phone, simply = image / color
Smelling a kind of electronic smell of the phone, simply = smell
Touching the screen = sensation
Hearing the key sounds = sound
Thinking about childhood, simply = thought

I have practiced pure seeing and hearing in fetterwork, meaning that we see, for example, only shapes and colors. Similar exercises are also object-subject exercises. Nowadays, by relaxing my gaze, I can partially drop the 3D seeing, which somehow relates to the brain not interpreting what it sees as strongly through separateness. At least it showed that everything we see (or hear etc) has been interpreted by brains. However, this may not be necessary here. I don’t know if it has any significant meaning otherwise, but at one point it seemed to help in letting go of psychological issues.

Love, Jussi

[Anastacia42]

Good.

No. We don't need to add anything to the pointers.

Here is the next step:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving

[JussiL]

Hi Stacy, thank you for the exercises. I have been doing this while going to the work and back and dome at home.


1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

When I say “I,” the thought or observation point seems to “rise” slightly, perhaps to the level of the eyes. The phrase “I write” also causes a slight tightening in the stomach. I am a writer, and it has been a part of my identity for a long time. These sentences, for example, “writing a text,” do not cause much reaction. The gaze also stays lower. I have done this exercise before, and the difference was clearer then: “I” sentences caused a clear unpleasant feeling and a focusing of the gaze. With this exercise and the subject-object exercises of fetters, I seem to have a lot of time for a “lazy gaze” that does not focus on the object but sees things more softly. The vision apparently stays in the peripheral vision state, I would think. "Watching the painting" feels more true sentence than "I watch the painting". Forming the passive voice in Finnish feels more unnatural, and (surprisingly) I don’t notice much difference.

2. What is here without labels?

Just seeing, happenig, running, drinking. Shapes, colours, sounds, smells.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They are part of identification and they do give an idea about seperate self.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I answered in 1.

Peace, Jussi

[JussiL]

Ups, I did forget to quote those.

Sorry!

J

[Anastacia42]

Thank you, yes. Quoting helps me read it. Later when you answer checkpoint questions that we will share with other guides, we need to quote each question separately and answer underneath.

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They are part of identification and they do give an idea about separate self.

'

Labels just describe. Here is a pointer to help you to see this:

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with something called "reality." But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like "good" and "bad" are inherent characteristics of "things." But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
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Loving,

[JussiL]

Hi again, Stacy

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with something called "reality." But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like "good" and "bad" are inherent characteristics of "things." But actually, they are not.

Yes, actually I misunderstood the whole question, good thing you corrected me. These are not the easist concepts in english. What I meant to say is that labels do not have a direct connection to reality, but they are a learned part of identity. This is the case, for example, with value concepts like good or bad. Nothing is inherently such on its own; we have learned it.

Love, Jussi