The Shift

[Guitarsg]

Staying with you is perfectly okay with me! Thank you for taking me back on!!

, I would suggest reading through the previous posts

I'm currently at work, so I will do this when I am back home or on another break.

I would also want to know what has changed since the last time we spoke with regards to expectations.

My expectation is.... There will be no resistance to life. All of life. Outside events. No resistance to emotions and feelings that come through me. I noticed how when I start to feel anxiety (I didn't even know it was anxiety before, I would not like the feeling and become very active trying to distract myself from it, thus making it worse. But if I let it be there and listen to it and watch it, it soon dissipates. And if it doesn't, that that's okay. It's the resistance to it that causes the real suffering. So I would say my expectation would be no resistance, a full acceptance of what is, allowing everything to be here and to be present to it all. The small moments where I am, I feel very expanded and a deeper sense of love, that being full acceptance.

Let’s revisit:
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

When I look for an "I" I get very still and quiet and focused, watching. Waiting. And there is nothing. Just awareness and awareness of everything I see and hear and smell and feel. Sometimes there's a glimpse, usually retrospect, of my body doing things that I wasn't really even aware of or conscious of, usually because my attention is in my head, with my thoughts. When I focus on watching my thoughts, I see how they come on their own and label things and narrate. Especially when I begin to get angry and frustrated. There's a story being overlapped of what's happening. So many assumptions. When I catch that and see that, the story begins to lose its power and I'm brought back to reality. But there is still this sense of a self. Either strong and there is a doer and thinker and I begin to get very intellectual with it. Then I see how that's all more thoughts. I begin to get a pressure headache when my attention is too focused on thoughts. I feel like I'm still looking for something and finding something.

[poppyseed]

Hey

Staying with you is perfectly okay with me! Thank you for taking me back on!!

Great! And it's my pleasure :)

My expectation is.... There will be no resistance to life. All of life. Outside events. No resistance to emotions and feelings that come through me. I noticed how when I start to feel anxiety (I didn't even know it was anxiety before, I would not like the feeling and become very active trying to distract myself from it, thus making it worse. But if I let it be there and listen to it and watch it, it soon dissipates. And if it doesn't, that that's okay. It's the resistance to it that causes the real suffering. So I would say my expectation would be no resistance, a full acceptance of what is, allowing everything to be here and to be present to it all. The small moments where I am, I feel very expanded and a deeper sense of love, that being full acceptance.

Great! Now you know already that It’s good to acknowledge them and then let them go. Like I said before – no expectations, no chance of missing the shift when it happens as it could be very subtle. Your expectations come from within the limits of your knowledge about awakening (your guesses and stories of others’ experiences), so it is good to acknowledge that you really don’t know what awakening feels like ;)

When I look for an "I" I get very still and quiet and focused, watching. Waiting. And there is nothing. Just awareness and awareness of everything I see and hear and smell and feel. Sometimes there's a glimpse, usually retrospect, of my body doing things that I wasn't really even aware of or conscious of, usually because my attention is in my head, with my thoughts. When I focus on watching my thoughts, I see how they come on their own and label things and narrate. Especially when I begin to get angry and frustrated. There's a story being overlapped of what's happening. So many assumptions. When I catch that and see that, the story begins to lose its power and I'm brought back to reality. But there is still this sense of a self. Either strong and there is a doer and thinker and I begin to get very intellectual with it. Then I see how that's all more thoughts. I begin to get a pressure headache when my attention is too focused on thoughts. I feel like I'm still looking for something and finding something.

Thank you! We can start looking into these assumptions once you have confirmed that you have read through the posts. Please provide a few examples of the exercise with the cup of coffee example written EXACTLY as the example, so I know that you know how to look. Two or three would suffice
Just to remind you:

For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Love
Rali

[Guitarsg]

I have read through the previous posts.

Please provide a few examples of the exercise with the cup of coffee example written EXACTLY as the example, so I know that you know how to look. Two or three would suffice

I hope I'm understanding this exercise. I may be overthinking it haha.
Bottle of Water:

Seeing the gray, tall bottle of water, simply = (seeing/sight) color, shapes, etc
Smelling the strawberry flavor, simply, = (smell/smelling)
Feeling the coldness and harness of the bottle, simply = (feeling/sensation)
Tasting the flavor, simply = (taste/tasting)
Hearing the steel hit the granite countertop, simply = (sound/hearing)
Thinking about the old bottle I used to have, simply = (Thought/thinking)

Work Boots:

Seeing the grease/oil on the black boots, simply = (Sight/seeing)
Smelling the grease and the oil, simply = (smell/smelling)
Feeling the leather and dirtiness of the boots, simply= (sensation/feeling)
Tasting strawberry flavored water, simply = (taste/tasting)
Hearing the boots hit the floor, simply = (hearing/sound)
Thinking about when I'll need to get a new pair, simply = (thinking/thoughts)

Im beginning to see how there are raw experiences that are real, and how thoughts come and label and narrate over top of those. Some of those thoughts seem to point to the actual experience, what is real . Others are just thoughts about the future or past, which are just other thoughts in the present moment, not pointing towards an actual/real experience or reality.

[poppyseed]

Hi Gaige

Seeing the grease/oil on the black boots, simply = (Sight/seeing)
Smelling the grease and the oil, simply = (smell/smelling)
Feeling the leather and dirtiness of the boots, simply= (sensation/feeling)
...

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit. Please give me an example with each of your replies just to keep it going...

How does it feel to see what actually is?

I feel like I'm still looking for something and finding something.

What exactly are you finding? The more you give me the easier guiding you will be

Sometimes there's a glimpse, usually retrospect, of my body doing things that I wasn't really even aware of or conscious of, usually because my attention is in my head, with my thoughts.

Let’s explore the idea of a body as a doer and you as an owner of that body…

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.
Love
Rali

[Guitarsg]

Please give me an example with each of your replies just to keep it going...

I see the cigar in my hand, simply = seeing/sight

I feel the tobacco leaves on my finger tips and smoke hitting my face, simply = sensation/feeling

I taste the smoke go down my throat and into my lungs, simply = tasting/taste

I smell the smoke, simply = smell/smelling

I'm thinking of how nice the weather is, simply = thinking/thought

How does it feel to see what actually is?

Calming. Still. More in the moment when attention is on the senses happening in the moment.

What exactly are you finding

I'm finding that reality here and now it's pretty simple and calm and easy. That it's when I start thinking about what might be true in my head that I begin to get stressed and confused and unsure. Thinking about what's true about history, what's true about myself, what's true about life after death, what's true about other entities, etc. Those questions hold me prisoner. But they are just thoughts arising and thoughts about thoughts, which are just more thoughts in the present moment. I think about can I ever know these things for certain for myself? If I can, would it not be worth knowing? Like this. If it's true the self as I know it doesn't exist, wouldn't it be worth exploring and finding out for myself? I get held up here a lot..

When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”?

I can sense that there is just coldness in my awareness, but it also seems to be happening at a specific location within my awareness, that is, where my hand is.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No. It cannot. Not without mental comparison.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No. There are just certain points of pressure.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No. But also, yes. I can sense where parts of my body are.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

There is the sensation happening on my legs. Pressure. The fabric. It does seem that only thoughts separate the body from the chair. But it's only through the body that sensations can and are happening. I can only experience what is happening to this body. I can't experience the pressure the chair is feeling, only my legs.

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

It seems like my body.. mainly because of what is stated above. Experience can only happen through this body.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

I think I would say the "inside" is the experiences happening within this body, and the "outside" are things affecting this just from which outside stimulus can be experienced.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

It refers to the working system that I am having direct experience of or through. If my hand is cut off, there will be sensations of it. If someone else's hand is cut off, there will not be any sensations of it.

Can the 'body' do things?

I think the body does things. Whether there is a doer or not, the body is in motion.

[poppyseed]

Hi Gaige

I feel the tobacco leaves on my finger tips and smoke hitting my face, simply = sensation/feeling
...

Great! Keep them coming!

I can sense that there is just coldness in my awareness, but it also seems to be happening at a specific location within my awareness, that is, where my hand is.

Do sensations have a location or the location (e.g. “hands”) is a label pointing to how (not where) the sensation is experienced? Look! With eye closed where exactly are “hands”? Remember the “apple” exercise. Are there objects or objects are just labels for seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and/or feeling? If all you have is see, hear, smell, taste and feel, how exactly would you know that there is something beyond these, or that would be an assumption (thought about)?
Here is a fun video for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtO5dMqEI

Look at the exercise at the end (deeper investigation of the body) for further clarity.

There is the sensation happening on my legs. Pressure. The fabric. It does seem that only thoughts separate the body from the chair. But it's only through the body that sensations can and are happening. I can only experience what is happening to this body. I can't experience the pressure the chair is feeling, only my legs.

So basically one sensation labelled “bum on chair, fabric…” right?

No. There are just certain points of pressure.

What are “points of pressure” in DE? (think “cup of coffee” exercise)

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No. But also, yes. I can sense where parts of my body are.

So if you are sensing/feeling aren’t those sensations labelled “body parts”? With eyes closed is there anything else but sensations (with respect to “body”) and thoughts? LOOK!!!

Experience can only happen through this body.

How is that seen in DE (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling and thinking)? Or that is an assumption (thought about a body)?

It refers to the working system that I am having direct experience of or through. If my hand is cut off, there will be sensations of it. If someone else's hand is cut off, there will not be any sensations of it.

Now drop the story about a body and look! What is brain, what are organs? Do you ever experience a brain or just sensations, colours,…? What is a body (think cup of coffee example/apple exercise)?
The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to sensation and labels it a ‘body’, but can a body be found as actual experience or only thoughts about a body?

I think the body does things. Whether there is a doer or not, the body is in motion.

Can a sensation do anything or just IS? Can a colour do anything or just IS? Can a smell do anything or just IS?...

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
1. First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

2. Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

3. While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

4. Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

5. Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

6. Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

7. Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

8. Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

9. Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Spend as much time as you need with these, doing the exercises again and again
Love
Rali

[Guitarsg]

Hello! I just wanted to check in and let you know I'll probably be responding on Sunday/Monday. I wanted to spend the weekend with these things to the best of my ability before responding/moving forward. Thank you!

[poppyseed]

Hi Gaige

Are you still serious about this inquiry, it's been 5 days since your last reply...
Love
Rali

[Guitarsg]

Phone:
I see the lights and icons and shape of the phone, simply = seeing/sight

I feel the slick and smoothness of the phone, simply = touch, sensation

I taste the juice that I had just had minutes ago, simply = taste/tasting

I hear the birds and leaves outside the window, simply = hearing

I smell the wax melt fill the room of crisp apple smells, simply = smelling

I'm thinking of a dream I once had many times whether I felt very similar to what I do now, simply = thought/thinking

Do sensations have a location or the location (e.g. “hands”) is a label pointing to how (not where) the sensation is experienced? Look! With eye closed where exactly are “hands”? Remember the “apple” exercise. Are there objects or objects are just labels for seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and/or feeling? If all you have is see, hear, smell, taste and feel, how exactly would you know that there is something beyond these, or that would be an assumption (thought about)?

I still really feels like sensation has a location... With or without a label.. i understand the labeling aspect I believe. But if my eyes are closed and my cat or dog brushes by my hand, without even thinking "hand" there is still an intuitive knowing of where this sensation is taking place within my body.

Now drop the story about a body and look! What is brain, what are organs? Do you ever experience a brain or just sensations, colours,…? What is a body (think cup of coffee example/apple exercise)?
The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to sensation and labels it a ‘body’, but can a body be found as actual experience or only thoughts about a body?

All the questions before this above text is just throwing me for a loop.. I don't understand. I'm not trying to understand intellectually. I'm trying to look, and I'm just not seeing what it seems you're trying to point to.. as for the above quote.... I see that I look at the body and I see colors and shapes and movement, etc and that it is only my brain that is labeling everyone the eyes fall upon, that the label could be anything at all but the perception and experience would stay the same, meaning thoughts aren't something concrete or "real". I rub my face and can feel it but can't see it, only my thoughts narrate the experience happening.

Can a sensation do anything or just IS? Can a colour do anything or just IS? Can a smell do anything or just IS?...

It all just is. It's all just appearing and happening. Thought creating a story behind it.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

Only thoughts that say this is me in a mirror. In reality, only seeing is happening

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

Only my thoughts make the connection. But it still feels like something intuitively says otherwise. Some recognition.

The rest of this.... I'm struggling so hard to see through anything. Even without thoughts labeling, there seems to be a sense of deeper recognition or knowing. And that too is just a sense and feeling, but there still seems to be some type of knowing/knowledge with it that isn't connected to thought.

[poppyseed]

Hi Gaige

I want to point out that we agreed on a certain tempo of conversation and it’s not happening. When we started this exploration, one of the guidelines I posted to you was about posting everyday or every second day and to drop me a note if you needed more time with the exercises or emergencies. The purpose for this is to build up a momentum, a momentum of looking, and it also lets me know if a person is really interested in doing this or not. So, with this in mind, can you please let me know if you are having second thoughts about this exploration. I feel I have to prod you for answers. I am a volunteer here, and there are also about 10 people waiting for a guide…
If you have difficulties with looking at the pointers you can let me know so I can find a different way to point to the same thing, instead of just disappearing.
You’ve spent a long time (your age) engaging with life in a certain way, a lifetime of habits, and now we are doing something completely different, so it does take a bit of determination and enthusiasm to put it mildly (more like burning desire). You put "11" as willingness to look but somehow it does not feel that way. I feel that we reach a certain point (get some momentum) and then you get distracted by something else and all "achieved" is forgotten (especially because you don’t read previous posts to remind yourself after a break) and we are back to square one, and pointing becomes so difficult…
I would appreciate if you let me know of your intention! I could also look for another guide who doesn’t mind sporadic answering.

Back to pointing…

I still really feels like sensation has a location... With or without a label.. i understand the labeling aspect I believe. But if my eyes are closed and my cat or dog brushes by my hand, without even thinking "hand" there is still an intuitive knowing of where this sensation is taking place within my body.

So when “the cat brushes your hand” – with eyes closed where exactly is that without the story/description/label? Where exactly is here or there, up and down, left and right? What is the refence point for that? Is there a center of some kind that determines where left and right (as in hands) are? With eyes closed do you see a hand resting ... (where) (ignore mental images and labels aka thought / imagination / memories)? Look at that reference point /center. What is there? Is the feeler of sensations there? You mention “a sense of deeper recognition or knowing”. Is it coming from that center? How exactly is it known where the hand is? Is it possible that there is just a thought saying: “The hand is there touching the cat”? How is that knowing different from the thought exactly?

Also…Look very carefully. Where does feeling/knowing end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between feeling/knowing and sensation be found? Are there "solid" sensations with well defined borders?
Can a ‘feeler’/knower ever be found in 'what is being felt' – DE sensation?
If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler/knower/center be other than a concept/idea/thought?

Explore the sensations further...
Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function? Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label (e.g. hand)? Is it one sensation/perception or two (e.g. cat and hand)? Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove. Notice your memories or references with which you compare the experience. Sit with these sensations. Look at them. Look at the labelling e.g. cat, hand. Look at the thoughts or story that attach at the end of this list if any. What is your direct experience of these words? Do they exist outside of thought? Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.

Eyes closed. Turn your attention to your skin. Do you have DE of it being outside? Where does the body end (limits/borders) (eyes closed)? What is the direct experience of the body? Is it the same as the idea we have about it? Do you see the whole or fragments that are collected together from memory to make a whole? And does that thought give us the impression of solidity, permanence and reality?

Looking forward to hearing from you!
Love
Rali

[Guitarsg]

I would appreciate if you let me know of your intention! I could also look for another guide who doesn’t mind sporadic answering.

I understand and I apologize. I will respond everyday to every second day.

I will respond this evening when I am home from work.

Gaige

[poppyseed]

Hi Gaige
Is it still happening?

Love
Rali

[Guitarsg]

Hello. What do you mean? Did my post not go over to you? I sent it yesterday evening. I think I saved it in my notes section on my phone. I'll copy paste here:

Spoon:
I see the shape and shineness of the spoon, simply = seeing

I feel the smoothness and coldness, simply = feeling

I smell the ice cream, simply = smell

I hear the TV show, simply = sight

I taste the coldness and sweetness of the ice cream, simply = tasting

I'm thinking that the TV is too loud and I need to turn it down, simply = thoughts/thinking

So when “the cat brushes your hand” – with eyes closed where exactly is that without the story/description/label? Where exactly is here or there, up and down, left and right? What is the refence point for that? Is there a center of some kind that determines where left and right (as in hands) are? With eyes closed do you see a hand resting ... (where) (ignore mental images and labels aka thought / imagination / memories)?

- my cat is not currently brushing against my hand, so I'm simply having my hand on my leg ---- I feel a sensation.. to some extent I am having trouble locating the sensation without needing to think about it. But it seems as if my body or brain just intuitively knows where the sensation is happening and letting me know without my having to think where it is at.
- it seems that the reference point/center for here/there, up/down, left/right is the center of my head.
- I do not see my hand resting on my leg. It still feels as if my body/brain are just informing me of location without my needing to think of it or even the need for a reference point/center. That I can just turn my head, eyes closed, towards what is happening. I'm having trouble getting around that. I focus attention on strictly the sensation. Focusing on experiencing even the details of the sensation.

Look at that reference point /center. What is there? Is the feeler of sensations there?

At this point I'm closing my eyes and trying to direct my attention inwards onto itself. But I'm not sure how a center point can turn in on itself. The longer I do this, the quieter my mind becomes. I reached a certain point, a brief moment or two, where it seemed like all sensations were just happening at once. That was a new type of experience for me. But then my cat knocked something off of the counter and through impulse/reaction, my head automatically turned towards my cat in a rush to see what hot knocked off. This is interesting in two ways: 1.) my body just did it without any thoughts or comprehension. But 2.) does that not mean there's some sort of automatic sense of direction? I know I'm missing the point here, I'm trying to get directed better at this whole "no location" thing..

Is it coming from that center? How exactly is it known where the hand is? Is it possible that there is just a thought saying: “The hand is there touching the cat”? How is that knowing different from the thought exactly?

I'm not sure how it is known, other than there is some type of knowing without needing to think and analyze, or trying to deductively figure it out. Much like the above of my head automatically turning towards what fell. No thought or reasoning was needed, the body just knew.

Where does feeling/knowing end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between feeling/knowing and sensation be found? Are there "solid" sensations with well defined borders?
Can a ‘feeler’/knower ever be found in 'what is being felt' – DE sensation?
If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler/knower/center be other than a concept/idea/thought?

- I'm not sure I recognize a difference between feeling/sensation... As for knowing.... Ironically what I've been trying to say above (my head turning on its own to what fell), answers this - I'm not sure where knowing comes from it. I'm not sure why my head turned on its own. There was just this inner recognition without my needing to figure it out. When in rubbing my leg, sensation happens in its own and it seems that this "knowing its location" happens in its own as well before the mind puts labels and stories to it. Before thinking can begin.
- "Knower" it's starting to seem that there is just a knowing. Like there's is just sensation happening. But it still seems that there is something that is aware of all of this, something that is watching and experiencing all of this. Maybe not controlling it and choosing it, but experiencing it. Can there be sensations and sounds, etc without awareness befalling onto it? Or someone/something to experience and witness this? I know I'm getting off track here... I felt very close with this "knowing its just happening before thoughts". But then I get intellectual and away from direct experience. It really feels like there's this "something" that experiences happen to. Or if even just being aware of them happening.

[Guitarsg]

This is the rest from my other notes section:

Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function? Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label (e.g. hand)? Is it one sensation/perception or two (e.g. cat and hand)?
Sensation alone does not come with any of that information. Even if I'm touching something round, my mind is what label it's and processes it as round. I find that the kind is processing and labeling/understanding this naturally on its own, without my having to try to. When the cat and hand meet, there is but only one sensation. The kind differentiates.

What is your direct experience of these words? Do they exist outside of thought? Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.

I'm noticing that there is direct sensations that thoughts come to overlay. I see how at first these thoughts are pointing towards sensation, something real. But then quickly there are thoughts about the thoughts - stories with it, whether I should brush my cat, if he's happy, etc.

Do you have DE of it being outside? Where does the body end (limits/borders) (eyes closed)? What is the direct experience of the body? Is it the same as the idea we have about it? Do you see the whole or fragments that are collected together from memory to make a whole? And does that thought give us the impression of solidity, permanence and reality?

I'm not sure what you mean by it being outside... Outside of the inside of my body? I suppose not.. my mind labels my skin outside and everything I can't directly see or sense as inside. But I can't directly experience an inside/outside without the concept.
I feel that the body ends where its senses stop.. or rather of what it cannot sense or feel. I can press on my arm and feel pressure going down. But I can't feel downward pressure if there is a weight on top of a table. My senses aren't connected to that.

[poppyseed]

Hi Gaige

Hello. What do you mean? Did my post not go over to you? I sent it yesterday evening. I think I saved it in my notes section on my phone. I'll copy paste here:

It happens. That’s why I double check :)

- my cat is not currently brushing against my hand, so I'm simply having my hand on my leg ---- I feel a sensation.. to some extent I am having trouble locating the sensation without needing to think about it. But it seems as if my body or brain just intuitively knows where the sensation is happening and letting me know without my having to think where it is at.

How is it directly experienced that the “body or brain just intuitively knows where the sensation is happening”? As thought? As a sensation? As a smell?... All you have is hear, see, smell, taste and feel. The rest is thought describing/labelling/story telling. So have a look! How is the brain and its “knowledge” experienced in DE?

- I do not see my hand resting on my leg. It still feels as if my body/brain are just informing me of location without my needing to think of it or even the need for a reference point/center.

So there are mental images (also thoughts) mapping your hands on the virtual body… What else is there showing where exactly your “hands” are? Is there an actual brain (that you can clearly see and describe) as a separate entity that is doing the feeling? Or is there simply the sensation itself, arising and passing away appearing together with thoughts and mental images of location and brain?

Here is an experiment for you just to understand what mental images are. Please bear with me…
Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands.
Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin.
Hold it there, sensing it.
Then open your eyes.
What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
Was there an appearing mental image?
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?
The thoughts and mental images are real only as AE of thoughts and mental images, their appearance cannot be denied. However their ‘contents’, what they are about (like the watermelon) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies.
Can you see this?

- it seems that the reference point/center for here/there, up/down, left/right is the center of my head.

Let’s take a closer look at the idea of the head, where it is believed thinking, seeing and knowing occurs, but can a head be found as actual experience?

Please IGNORE all thoughts and mental images of ‘head’ and ‘fingers’ and just answer from actual experience. Close your eyes and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and keeping your eyes closed...

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or are there just thoughts about something being in between them

Without thought, how big is your head?
Without thought, does it have an inside or an outside?
Without thought, does it have a location?
Most importantly, do you see a command center with buttons and levers, a little arm chair with a mini me, or a brain?

I feel that the body ends where its senses stop.. or rather of what it cannot sense or feel. I can press on my arm and feel pressure going down. But I can't feel downward pressure if there is a weight on top of a table. My senses aren't connected to that.

Our typical understanding of the body is heavily influenced by thought constructs and mental images. We tend to think of the body as a solid, separate object with clearly defined boundaries. However body ss a fluid and impermanent collection of sensations, rather than a fixed and separate object. Let’s investigate this belief through direct experience, focusing solely on sensations rather than mental interpretations.

So what suggests that there is a sensation “pressure” if there is a weight on top of the table? Thought? In a way, you are defining “inside” and “outside” by presuming that that there are un-experienceable sensations. Does pressure exists inherently to be experienced through sensations, or in DE, there is only a sensation labelled “pressure”? So if “pressure” is nothing but a description for a sensation, can a table (colour/seeing) experience sensations? Can colour_seeing feel?
If you in your experience pressure exist inherently (outside) (as in hand on table) where is the border where pressure crosses over from being outside to being inside of you and be experienced as a sensation? What does the border consist of?

I felt very close with this "knowing its just happening before thoughts". But then I get intellectual and away from direct experience. It really feels like there's this "something" that experiences happen to. Or if even just being aware of them happening.

Thinking or labelling is like sticky notes glued to experience/what IS. There are layers and layers of sticky notes starting from basic concepts to meaning of these concepts in different situations, to more complex stories. Some sticky notes are so basic and subtle that they have been taken as something real/inherently or independently existing. That is what we are doing here – peeling off sticky notes until there is only what is real. We can look at what you are saying deeper but for now look at what is the difference between feeling a sensation and being aware of a sensation? Furthermore is there separate feeling (verb) and sensation or feelingsensation?
Love
Rali