Ready to see clearly

[ty0]

There's no truth apart from whatever you imagine to be truth.

Are you aware of what's causing you suffering now?

[Becca]

I'm not sure what's causing suffering now, no. It all seems to revolve around "me" though, needing to secure something, be enough, defend myself. The sense of me that seems to be at the center of all suffering is why I'm here rather than off doing other things to ease the suffering.

Is that reasonable? Isn't it accurate to say that when it's known that there is no me, much of the defending and protecting of me will stop?

I feel like I do know there is no me. I can't find a self, but this type of me-centered suffering remains. The self I find is made of thought. It's very strong but I know it can't be me. I feel quite frustrated and at the edge of something. It all seems very confusing all of a sudden. So there are just bodies and expressions and thoughts and words and actions appearing but no self that holds anything together...?

[ty0]

Is that reasonable? Isn't it accurate to say that when it's known that there is no me, much of the defending and protecting of me will stop?

Well, don't you already see in experience that there is no self?

So there are just bodies and expressions and thoughts and words and actions appearing but no self that holds anything together...?

There is whatever's appearing. There's the imagination of things outside what's appearing, but this only exists as imagination, which is appearing. I'm not sure a "body" is within experience, just sensations and sights and thoughts saying "body".

Do you have specific examples of how suffering arises for you? Maybe something that keeps recurring? When you wrote your latest response to me about defending the self and whatnot, was the suffering happening in that moment? Or was it something you were imagining and then looking for a way to prevent in the imagined future? The reason I asked if you wanted to schedule a call was because it's easier to work with you in real-time about NOW. As in, all there is, now. Is there suffering now apart from worrying about suffering popping up later and trying to come up with a contingency now?

[Becca]

Is that reasonable? Isn't it accurate to say that when it's known that there is no me, much of the defending and protecting of me will stop?

Well, don't you already see in experience that there is no self?

Yes, I do see this in experience. Just thought about a self.

So there are just bodies and expressions and thoughts and words and actions appearing but no self that holds anything together...?

There is whatever's appearing. There's the imagination of things outside what's appearing, but this only exists as imagination, which is appearing. I'm not sure a "body" is within experience, just sensations and sights and thoughts saying "body".

Do you have specific examples of how suffering arises for you? Maybe something that keeps recurring? When you wrote your latest response to me about defending the self and whatnot, was the suffering happening in that moment? Or was it something you were imagining and then looking for a way to prevent in the imagined future? The reason I asked if you wanted to schedule a call was because it's easier to work with you in real-time about NOW. As in, all there is, now. Is there suffering now apart from worrying about suffering popping up later and trying to come up with a contingency now?

No, there is no suffering now.

There was suffering earlier and that is recurring. There are sensations and thoughts about me that feel cringy, thoughts around you having done things wrong and things like that. There are feelings that are labeled insecurity. I see that those are sensations and labels that don't prove a self.

There is no suffering now so I guess it's all imagination to even talk about it. But I am confused about the paradoxical nature of this and the mixed messages. There is nothing special that will happen when self is seen to not be real AND over and over there are messages that there is a lightness, a freedom, suffering does end. Is my seeking and suffering only because I think things should be different? Then why is this forum and the gatecrashers books full of content that says things do change in somewhat predictable ways when it's seen there is no self?

I feel like this is a boring question that everyone asks. I don't need a formula and I'm okay in seeming paradox. But I have to ask it because it's what's here and driving me nuts right now. It's very confusing to be told to get to the bottom of no self but also to stop looking for something that isn't here in direct experience. Do you know what I mean?

Thank you for your help.

[Becca]

I'm seeing that all of this confusion and frustration is simply a flow of thoughts too. There is no "me" behind or at cause in any of that. It's not arising "because I don't see there is no me". It's just what is.

And maybe it doesn't mean anything about a belief in a separate self? I'm not so sure about this last statement.

[ty0]

What would lightness and freedom look like? Are you not free? If not, what are you not free from? What feels heavy? Is it this search itself that feels heavy? As if it's crucial for you to get to the bottom of something?

What do you do when you feel unpleasant emotions? Do you go straight into investigation mode in an attempt to understand, and therefore, get rid of the unpleasant emotions? When you feel confused and you feel like something is driving you nuts, what's actually happening? Are you not just feeling an unpleasant emotion then trying to get away from it with more thoughts trying to explain and understand but failing, leading to more suffering and avoidance?

There's nothing special about belief in a separate self or no-self or whatever. You've only set it up in your mind as this holy grail thing that will end your suffering. The important thing is for you to see clearly what's actually happening and to not believe the content of your thoughts. The only thing you can ever do is look at what's here. You can't get something else, but you can try to, which causes suffering.

[Becca]

What would lightness and freedom look like?

I don't know. I have to make something up to answer that.

Are you not free? If not, what are you not free from? What feels heavy?

I am free AND literally everywhere I look, including this forum and the books written about it, there is talk that when life is experienced from this me-centered perspective, it's heavy. That resonates as my experience. Stories about "me" feel heavy. I know they aren't true. Is there more to see about this though? Wouldn't it help really know there is no me for these stories to even be about?

Yes, the search feels heavy, no question. But what are you suggesting with that question? Stop searching? I thought the search was going to reveal the absence of a me and that would be nice. That's what the books very explicitly say.

Are you suggesting I just stop worrying about this and I'll be better off? This is what I tried to express in my last post but I know I didn't express it well. It's very confusing to hear that there is a self-belief that can be seen through and also that it's no big deal and the search itself causes suffering. Do you know what I mean by that? You are saying it's nothing special, but then why are we even writing here?

You say

The only thing you can ever do is look at what's here.

So I guess we should do that? What's here right now is sensation, sounds, colors, thoughts.

I want to follow your lead because in my head it just feels like I'm going down a lot of conceptual rabbit holes.

[ty0]

So essentially... you're skeptical about dropping the search because you're afraid that you won't feel better if you drop the search? Doesn't it seem like the harder you search, the more frustrated you feel, and the more "you" you feel? I'm not saying there's nothing to seeing through self and it's nothing special, I'm saying that what you're doing (looking for something that isn't here) is counterproductive.

How can "you" ever be absent if "you" are looking for the absence of yourself?

What are you resisting other than the frustration of looking for the absence of a self and not getting the aha your want? And how do you resist this, by looking harder? You're going in circles

[Becca]

So essentially... you're skeptical about dropping the search because you're afraid that you won't feel better if you drop the search?

Yes. I hadn't seen it that way but that feels like what's going on, yes.

Doesn't it seem like the harder you search, the more frustrated you feel, and the more "you" you feel?

Yep, for sure.

What are you resisting other than the frustration of looking for the absence of a self and not getting the aha your want? And how do you resist this, by looking harder? You're going in circles

Yes, I see that now.

This leaves me at a loss for where to go from here.

[ty0]

Why are you looking for a "where to go"? Where could you go apart from here? What are you still trying to change?

[Becca]

Well, I guess I just mean "where to go" in terms of the exploration we're doing together.

There is nowhere to go apart from here. Can you say more about that?

[ty0]

Well, I guess I just mean "where to go" in terms of the exploration we're doing together.

You still have useful practices that I hope you do somewhat consistently like "What's not a thought?" I wonder what kind of thoughts you're having now though. What are you trying to figure out now?

There is nowhere to go apart from here. Can you say more about that?

Where else is there that isn't a thought? What else is there that isn't a thought? You're doing all this searching, but you're looking for something "there", when all there is is here.

[Becca]

You still have useful practices that I hope you do somewhat consistently like "What's not a thought?" I wonder what kind of thoughts you're having now though. What are you trying to figure out now?

I am doing these regularly. I don't think I'm trying to figure anything out. I guess my main exploration is letting attention drop into the senses -- physical sensation, seeing, hearing. Noticing thought when it arises, especially the I thought, and looking for the I it refers to. Following the sensations that feel like me. Mostly arriving at fuzzy mental images that seem like me, such as an image of the body, a memory of "me" in some situation, etc. Those aren't me but they are what comes up when I follow the sense of me.

What else is there that isn't a thought? You're doing all this searching, but you're looking for something "there", when all there is is here.

Yes, I'm seeing this. It's a lot more immediate and real (not fantasy) when I look in this way.

[Becca]

Hi Tyler,

Can we still communicate here?

I'm curious your thoughts on my "practice":

I guess my main exploration is letting attention drop into the senses -- physical sensation, seeing, hearing. Noticing thought when it arises, especially the I thought, and looking for the I it refers to. Following the sensations that feel like me. Mostly arriving at fuzzy mental images that seem like me, such as an image of the body, a memory of "me" in some situation, etc. Those aren't me but they are what comes up when I follow the sense of me.

I do feel like it's becoming a little easier to sink into what's real and immediate, and less into thought. And it's clear there is no me here in the immediate. I only appear to exist as a thought.

Do you feel like this is a good way to continue? I guess thought says I've done/known this for years and there has to be something more I can explore. I can see that as a thought and come back to immediate experience, no self. I would love any feedback you could provide. Thank you.

[ty0]

Of course we can still communicate here. Shoot me any questions you have whenever you want :)

Do you feel like this is a good way to continue? I guess thought says I've done/known this for years and there has to be something more I can explore. I can see that as a thought and come back to immediate experience, no self. I would love any feedback you could provide. Thank you.

"Is this a good way to continue?" is a contextual question. A good way for what? How do we evaluate "good"? What are you trying to achieve by continuing this? Why do you even practise at all?

But yes, do continue sinking into the senses. You can even pick a sensation and try not to lose attention of it throughout an entire day. Increasing mindfulness and sensitivity does make experience more pleasant.

How often do you smile? Sit, close your eyes, listen to the sounds, and smile. What more do you need?