Creating clarity

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat
Wonderful!

Are the thought patterns true? I am starting to see how they are absurd if I am basing them on sensation.

The more you notice what thoughts are about vs DE the more absurd they will seem. It is just that they have been unchallenged for a long time and taken for truth. Nothing thoughts say is true. They are always out of step with reality, and they obstruct the clear seeing of how things actually are.
Reality is very simple.
Just notice what is ‘underneath’ all thoughts, without the overlaying narrative of names, labels, interpretations, explanations over the simplicity of what is. Instead of endlessly reaching for ideas, concepts and explanations, just let it all go, and see. Just see what is here now silently, without words. Just notice what is left when you stop thinking about it.

Is there a "stiff face" in the sensation?

No, there isn't. This is my label of it. All there is in the sensation is heat.

Well, I was going to say that story comes first and then the sensation. But in the moment that I get jealous, the sensation comes first. Or does it?

I'm not seeing it clearly. Yes, thoughts say yes they do change according to the story. Then I also see that my sensations are the way they are regardless of the story.

Hehe , what is “heat” in DE? You just went further down a layer (of post-it notes) :). Are sensations actually describable? Does “heat” come even closer to the complexity of the experience?
But let’s see even deeper. Is there a hook, some kind of connection between the description (jealousy - stiff face – heat) and the sensation? How many sensations are there? Are these separate sensations or one?
Notice the sensation detached from the assumptions. Let the labels drift away like clouds. If you were a baby would you have known that this sensation is “heat” or “stiff face” or “jealousy”? Are the thought label and the sensation in any way connected? Is the label “glued” somehow to the sensation? What is the glue made of?
Stay with the sensation… Sometimes sitting with sensations is hard. Do you notice a pull to go back to the story? That pull comes from avoidance/resistance to the raw sensation, because at some point it has been labelled as “unpleasant”. Are there truly “unpleasant” sensations?
Stay with them, experience everything fully. Let them play out. It might be uncomfortable, but supressing them doesn’t work anyway. The only way to find peace is to surrender to what is. Wishing it away is not going to work. Resistance arises when we say “no” to what is happening. But it doesn’t really matter - life keeps on happening. The only difference is all the story that arises. You can “hate” or “love”, life will happen anyway. Peace is always present but it is clouded by the thoughts. What we call suffering is made up story about “shoulds” and “should nots”, about guilt, shame or fear associated with the hypothesised outcome.
The key to emotions is being able to allow the sensations all the room they need without pushing them aside or wanting them to be different. Once there is no resistance (there is surrendering) to a sensation/feeling, then it transforms. Instead of the usual no, you can start saying yes to intense feelings, and just feel them openly. Each reaction is an invitation to look. Feelings/sensations pass quickly if there is no grasping. Surrendering is what is left when resistance to what IS ends. When feelings arise, give them space. Feel them, honour them.

But have a look! What is protected here? Is there anything to be “shameful” or “fearful”?
Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for this!

Hehe , what is “heat” in DE?

Heat:
Thought about heat, simply = thought (thinking)

Goodness, right it's just another post-it note!

Are sensations actually describable? Does “heat” come even closer to the complexity of the experience?

Hmm, in doing DE on every sensation I can think of, it is all thought. "Heat" doesn't come close to the complexity of the experience.

Is there a hook, some kind of connection between the description (jealousy - stiff face – heat) and the sensation? How many sensations are there? Are these separate sensations or one?

No, there's no hook between the description and sensation. There are a lot of sensations, actually. When I look, the sensation is one.

If you were a baby would you have known that this sensation is “heat” or “stiff face” or “jealousy”? Are the thought label and the sensation in any way connected? Is the label “glued” somehow to the sensation? What is the glue made of?

If I were a baby, no I wouldn't know this sensation "heat", "stiff face" or "jealousy". The thought label and sensation are not in any way connected. No, the label is not "glued" to the sensation. If there was glue, then the glue is made of thought.

Do you notice a pull to go back to the story?

Yes, to be in the sensation, I need to fabricate the label that I am jealous. Otherwise, that "jealous" sensation disappears.

Are there truly “unpleasant” sensations?

Not according to what I am seeing now. They are just sensations.

Ok I will feel them. Another sensation coming up is panic, stress and failure. I will experience them fully.

What is protected here? Is there anything to be “shameful” or “fearful”?

Nothing is being protected whatsoever! No, there is nothing to be "shameful" or "fearful"! How funny and great and brilliant!

Thank you!

Love

Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat
Wonderful!

Ok I will feel them. Another sensation coming up is panic, stress and failure. I will experience them fully.

You can explore them in exactly the same manner :). Fear/panic can be quite a “solid” sensation, but do you know that there are languages in which “fear” does not exist as a concept. Weird, right? Something that we have taken as given and basic ;)

The fear itself is not to be feared. It's a mechanism, working perfectly as a security system. It is protecting something. It is a sensation, that fires together with a thought. Look at “fear” and just let it be here. As always, find where in the body is being felt, bring it closer, invite it to share its wisdom. It's fine to just let it be. Respect it. Bow to it. Then look what is behind it. What is it protecting? What is it like, then, to just be with the ‘fear’?

Seeing that no one is here doing, thinking, living a life of a separate entity does not automatically end all fears and resistance that you feel. All that constructs “you”- thoughts, beliefs, fears, habits, etc - did not form in a day, so it does not usually disappear in a day either. Look closer. Is the story that comes with it true? The key to emotions is being able to allow the sensations all the room they need without pushing them aside or wanting them to be different. Sensations need to be felt. Giving them the space to play out without the story is vital. The real challenge is to see the emptiness of the whole story – that it is not what it looks like and it’s not based on reality – and then let it go by focusing on what is actually here_now. “Your responsibility” (not that you can do anything as you don’t exist) is checking what is real and what is not, and seeing all these old patterns that still need to be adjusted to that SEEING. Whatever the thinking is ABOUT is EMPTY, even if it is about DE.

Sensations arise; take a look at them. Which one of them is the sensation of “panic”, or “stress”? Can you pinpoint it? What is that sensation without the label? Is the sensation “stressed” itself? Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘stress’.
In simple everyday life, what is happening is happening. Thinking about being stressed, flow with whatever is happening. If there is action you can take when a want comes up, then take it. If not, just watch, smile, take notes, and release :)


At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.
Notice that everything is part of one movement. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought?
Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there anything which is not just happening?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.
Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

I might not have time to go for a walk until Friday!

Please allow me until then to reply. I may reply to the first part of your message first and then reply to the last exercise on Friday.

To make things clear and easy, perhaps it might be a good idea for you to reply to me once I finish the whole exercise.

Thank you!

Love

Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat

Thank you for letting me know!
You can reply in one go or separately - it's up to you. I'll wait for both

Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali!

Thank you for the exercises!

Weird, right?

Very! Would love to find out which languages these are.

What is it protecting? What is it like, then, to just be with the ‘fear’

I see it is not protecting anything because THIS is one. To be with the 'fear' is easy and just a bunch of sensations.

At the moment I am feeling anger and frustration as I am doing a mini bathroom renovated by someone who is slightly too thorough and making costs blow out for me. I am arguing with my partner about it.

The anger is sensation is explosive chest, clenched jaw. I am bowing to it. It is dissipating.

Is the story that comes with it true?

No, the story that comes with 'fear' is not true. The story about my bathroom renovation is not true.

Which one of them is the sensation of “panic”, or “stress”? Can you pinpoint it? What is that sensation without the label? Is the sensation “stressed” itself?

I can't really pinpoint which sensation is "panic" or "stress". Sometimes it feels like I make the sensation up actually. The sensation tied with 'anger' - as I described above, includes a constricted throat - 'anger' has sensations that could be pinpointed because they are strong sensations. Yet, the sensation disappears when the label disappears. The sensation without the label, is just sensations. The sensation itself is not "stressed".


opic review: Creating clarity
Re: Creating clarity
Post by poppyseed » Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:57 pm

Hi Cat

Thank you for letting me know!
You can reply in one go or separately - it's up to you. I'll wait for both

Love
Rali
Re: Creating clarity
Post by catwk » Wed Oct 02, 2024 3:50 pm

Hi Rali,

I might not have time to go for a walk until Friday!

Please allow me until then to reply. I may reply to the first part of your message first and then reply to the last exercise on Friday.

To make things clear and easy, perhaps it might be a good idea for you to reply to me once I finish the whole exercise.

Thank you!

Love

Cat
Re: Creating clarity
Post by poppyseed » Tue Oct 01, 2024 2:51 am

Hi Cat
Wonderful!
Ok I will feel them. Another sensation coming up is panic, stress and failure. I will experience them fully.
You can explore them in exactly the same manner :). Fear/panic can be quite a “solid” sensation, but do you know that there are languages in which “fear” does not exist as a concept. Weird, right? Something that we have taken as given and basic ;)

The fear itself is not to be feared. It's a mechanism, working perfectly as a security system. It is protecting something. It is a sensation, that fires together with a thought. Look at “fear” and just let it be here. As always, find where in the body is being felt, bring it closer, invite it to share its wisdom. It's fine to just let it be. Respect it. Bow to it. Then look what is behind it. What is it protecting? What is it like, then, to just be with the ‘fear’?

Seeing that no one is here doing, thinking, living a life of a separate entity does not automatically end all fears and resistance that you feel. All that constructs “you”- thoughts, beliefs, fears, habits, etc - did not form in a day, so it does not usually disappear in a day either. Look closer. Is the story that comes with it true? The key to emotions is being able to allow the sensations all the room they need without pushing them aside or wanting them to be different. Sensations need to be felt. Giving them the space to play out without the story is vital. The real challenge is to see the emptiness of the whole story – that it is not what it looks like and it’s not based on reality – and then let it go by focusing on what is actually here_now. “Your responsibility” (not that you can do anything as you don’t exist) is checking what is real and what is not, and seeing all these old patterns that still need to be adjusted to that SEEING. Whatever the thinking is ABOUT is EMPTY, even if it is about DE.

Sensations arise; take a look at them. Which one of them is the sensation of “panic”, or “stress”? Can you pinpoint it? What is that sensation without the label? Is the sensation “stressed” itself? Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘stress’.
In simple everyday life, what is happening is happening. Thinking about being stressed, flow with whatever is happening. If there is action you can take when a want comes up, then take it. If not, just watch, smile, take notes, and release :)


At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.
Notice that everything is part of one movement. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought?
Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there anything which is not just happening?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?

I did my walk just outside my apartment, not fully immersed in nature but just though a city park. No, there is nothing separate from anything else. And my thoughts start to interject to say I am brainwashing myself. I am feeling the concrete on the ground. That floor is separate from me. I know that it is just a thought that divides me from everything else. Again, my thoughts interject and say silly me, those people are actually separate from me, I am brainwashing myself. But all the chatter around me I notice it is uncontrollable. That woman laughed out loud but she didn't control it. People walking about but they are not controlling themselves. Same as me, I can't control my thoughts, my body movements. It is all a sea. One sea of things. No, the interdependent movement is not outside of me, I am part of it. No there is no "inside" or "outside". Though, it feels like everything is "outside". But I get it is all just happening in no location. No, there isn't anything that is not included in the movement of the whole. Everything is part of it. No, everything is just happening. No, there is no witness watching life from a distance. There is no owner of being. These last 2 questions, I answered from memory. I will look again. In DE, I literally cannot find that witness. Ok, I see, there is no owner of being, I see everything is completely out of control, just happening, so there is no owner of being. There are no others. There is no "I" in others. There is no "me"!!!

Thank you Rali!

Love

Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat
I hope you enjoyed your walk in the park :)

Very! Would love to find out which languages these are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XINQvKb ... 4&index=43

At the moment I am feeling anger and frustration as I am doing a mini bathroom renovated by someone who is slightly too thorough and making costs blow out for me. I am arguing with my partner about it.

The anger is sensation is explosive chest, clenched jaw. I am bowing to it. It is dissipating.

Anger is just an invitation for more looking. It is just a thought pattern that comes as a protection of old ways of thinking, of protecting an imaginary self (e.g. from extra costs, financial insecurity). Some sensations are strongly felt because of previous “engagement” (positive or negative), and some are just neutral (no engagement, aka no additional stories). There is a desire/thought to see more of the positive and avoid the negative. What is interesting though is why some are considered/labelled “positive” and others ”negative”. Why are some labelled “explosive chest, clenched jaw” (negative connotation) and others are not even noticed (neutral) or labelled “bliss, lightness, excitement” (positive). How exactly are these sensations different? Is that classification intrinsic or is it conditioned? The intensity might be different but besides that ...?
Look! When there is engagement (more stories), pay attention not to the story but to the sensations. That labelling is there either because the sensations are associated with “positive or negative” experience, otherwise it goes unnoticed. That association happened at some point (you might remember or not), but is it true? Look, is there anything negative or positive in the sensations. The more you stay with actual sensations the more the story is released and its “heaviness”/”stickiness” removed. When you stay with the “unpleasant” sensations, do you notice the pull back to the story? The story is a nice diversion to avoid the sensations, just out of habit (they’ve always/for a long time fired together). So try and stay longer with what is really happening. Can you be in a body where these “unpleasant” sensations are happening? Are they really that unpleasant?

And my thoughts start to interject to say I am brainwashing myself. I am feeling the concrete on the ground. That floor is separate from me. I know that it is just a thought that divides me from everything else. Again, my thoughts interject and say silly me, those people are actually separate from me, I am brainwashing myself.

Well these labels, aka the "world", were not built in day, you can’t expect they will be dismantled in a day too. When doubt appears, the only antidote is to look what is actually here. Are there two sensations – one of concrete and one of feet, or one sensation (labelled feet on ground)? Can you cut the people from the background (the green scenery), can you cut your body pieces (stuff that you see) from the same background? There is just seeing…
When you have two opposing views (i.e. view of reality) you have to keep checking their validity. What used to happen was, if a new idea fits with the rest of the core beliefs, it stayed, and otherwise it was rejected (confirmation bias). This method saves energy so it was used for a really long time. Now we’ve added a second method for dealing with opposing concepts – to check with our senses which one truly describes what is happening. The “stubbornness” of thoughts comes from that confirmation bias as you have not just one thought but a system of thoughts forming your view/belief system of reality. So to reduce it you need to painstakingly examine all thoughts one by one, as they appear, in order for thoughts to self-organise and form a new core. And I underlie self-organise as this is not in your control, it just happens. I’ve basically introduced a virus thought (LOOK!) that causes all thoughts to be reorganised around the experience. When all old labels are paused and thought is just silently present (“being”), it is recognised (still a thought but a quieter one) how “reality” is – no entities, no actions and reactions, no need for decisions and planning – “things” are just happening. Mind is freed from being the horrible master (the incompetent manager), to actually being a useful servant (a good PA). All is left is peace and surrender, contentment with what IS, as it can’t be any other way. It is just perfect – nothing can be taken away or added to make it better. Whatever needs to happen will happen on its own without entities – actionless actions :). Whatever comes next does not come as a solution to an existing problem (e.g. something wrong with the current situation) – it happens because it just has to happen. “Good” or “bad” are just conditioned labels in that desire to change what IS. Do you see that?

So...
How is life these days?
So nothing changed, but everything looks different, does that make sense in your experience?
What has changed in normal everyday living since the start of conversation, what hasn’t?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Does the sense of „I am doing, deciding, or experiencing” still come up in everyday life, though you know that experientially, the „me“ can’t be found?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion, or doubt, or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?
Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Yes, enjoyed my short walk thank you!

How exactly are these sensations different? Is that classification intrinsic or is it conditioned? The intensity might be different but besides that ...?

Right, the sensations are not different, they are just sensations. The classification is definitely conditioned. Yeah, besides the intensity, they are still simply sensations. This deepens my DE more and more, I starts noticing things just as they are and it has helped to let the labels of sensations pass by. Very amazing experience.

but is it true?

No, it is not true. Especially distinguishing that sensations are just sensations and they are not "negative" or "positive" and seeing that there are actually neutral sensations too, really highlights how much story is added to sensations. Whereas in DE sensations are simply sensation and because it is DE, then there is no real argument against it.

When you stay with the “unpleasant” sensations, do you notice the pull back to the story?

I suppose a little. Let me rehash it all again, when I do, yes, there is always a bit of an attachment to the story. I've noticed when I stay with the sensations just as sensations the sensation and story pass really quickly.

Can you be in a body where these “unpleasant” sensations are happening? Are they really that unpleasant?

Yeah, I can be in a body where these "unpleasant" sensations are happening! More easily than I originally thought. They are not that unpleasant actually!

Are there two sensations – one of concrete and one of feet, or one sensation (labelled feet on ground)? Can you cut the people from the background (the green scenery), can you cut your body pieces (stuff that you see) from the same background?

No, there is just one sensation. I cannot cut people from the background nor can I cut my body pieces from the same background. I went for another walk too, I also see that from a science point of view, we cannot at all be separate from each other also, as cells are all vibrating together to create a form. When I write this, I also see that those cells are just a label though. So sticking back with DE, then no I can't cut things out from other things, it's all one, constant according to my seeing.

Do you see that?

Yep, I do see this. I have no control and everything is just happening and always was, even before I allowed my mind to stop controlling everything and let it be a calm PA instead.

How is life these days?
So nothing changed, but everything looks different, does that make sense in your experience?
What has changed in normal everyday living since the start of conversation, what hasn’t?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Does the sense of „I am doing, deciding, or experiencing” still come up in everyday life, though you know that experientially, the „me“ can’t be found?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion, or doubt, or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Life is very cool. I see it and relate to everything and everyone as one and the same and I am not separate. This has meant that I am less afraid of people, carefree with both being myself and saying things even if it causes conflict or not, uninhibited, able to do public speaking.

Yep, nothing has changed and everything looks different, that is spot on.

What has changed is how I relate to people as I said above. I am more myself and a lot more happy and fulfilled. I can get connected to "no concepts" more easily and am naturally more present to the DE of things.

What hasn't changed is...life. The ordinariness of life! I see life much more ordinary than before actually but it doesn't make me feel despair. I feel free. Free to die. Free to fail miserably.

The biggest difference from before starting this conversation is many things. I relate to the world in real life, not just imagination or concept or intellectually, as a soup, piece of paper with drawing on it, stream. There's no location to it all. Letting labels pass, seeing I have no control and letting sensations pass! They are also big things that I have gotten.

Yes, the sense of "I doing, deciding and experiencing" will comes up and I can't find a "me" in it!

Hmm...is seeking still going on? I certainly feel more grounded, at peace, fulfilled. I don't know. There was a point where I said to my Zen teacher, I've gotten everything I need now!

As I mentioned before, I tend to go into, am I brainwashing myself. Then I remember DE and look to see if my seeing can be separated into different borders and units, which they cannot be. It's a matter or continuously reorganising the thoughts.

YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is. It was created via the labels which never matched up with DE in the first place anyway.

I just had an argument with a friend who didn't like this conversation about no choice or no self. I felt separate from my friend. But at the same time not at all separate. It was just a stream of things. And I realise, perhaps this conversation isn't for everyone which doesn't invalidate this conversation. When close friends oppose this, it makes it feel like I am following a doctrine or being brainwashed. Yet it is not my experience. You were guiding me, I LOOKED. That was that. I saw it for myself. And life occurs as brilliantly connected, and yet that fact seems so plain and ordinary too. I am wondrously, completely grateful.

Thank you!

Love Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat

It is so wonderful to read your reply!

Seeing probably won't be 24/7. There's likely to be a "honeymoon period," and then what we call, "got it, lost it," as untrue beliefs come up to be questioned. This can go on for months & years. This initial shift is irreversible, just as we can never go back to believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.
We still use first-person pronouns to describe “ourselves” with the same ease we always had, even if such ideas have no more actual meaning than talking about Santa Claus once we learn “he” doesn’t exist either. The separate “self” is seen to have been nothing more than inference and interpretation. As a result of getting this first irreversible understanding of who we are(n’t), there is a joyfulness, an initial cleansing of wrong views, and an illumination of what is (and is not) happening within and around us. Though this illumination is of a preliminary nature, it nevertheless constitutes a significant re-ordering of how we perceive ourselves and our place in the world.
This process is unfolding in layers. Seeing through one layer of the illusion might reveal another, more subtle layer beneath. Even after significant insights, there may still be deeper levels of conditioning to be addressed.
Expecting a permanent state of bliss or an end to all suffering after seeing through the illusion is unrealistic. While awakening can bring greater peace and freedom, it does not negate the reality of human experience, which includes challenges, difficult emotions, and the ongoing process of “navigating” life's complexities (done by no one).
That is why it is so important to continue looking – a dedicated and ongoing practice of self-inquiry and observation. This ongoing “practice” helps to weaken the hold of the illusion and allows for a deeper integration of insights into daily life.
Cultivating acceptance for where we are in the process – even when the illusion reasserts itself – is crucial. This includes accepting that awakening is a gradual journey, not a destination, and that patience and compassion are essential qualities to nurture along the way.
While glimpses of seeing through the illusion can be profound and transformative, fully integrating this understanding into our lived experience is an ongoing process. It requires patience, dedication, and a willingness to meet whatever arises – clarity and confusion, peace and/or frustration. Here is a good video that explains all of that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

Now… We have some checkpoint questions. Would you like to answer these?

Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for your message and the video!

Ok I understand that there is an integration period. Moments of falling in and out of seeing it.

That is reassuring actually and takes me out of being idealistic and perfectionist about my seeing. And I am committed to continue looking for how many years it will take...well it will be my whole life.

Would you like to answer these?

Yes please!

Thank you Rali.

Love

Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat
Here are the questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true right now for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Sorry it has taken me a few days to reply!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no separate entity 'self', 'me', 'I'' at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form. There wasn't ever. Sometimes, I mention that I question whether I am brainwashing myself into thinking this. However, to point at 'my body' and label it 'me' feels totally uncomfortable. Now that I have had the real experience of this stream of everything, it is very hard to go back to relating to the 'body' as 'self'. It is unnatural and a lot more natural to see that all of THIS just IS. There are no separate entities from each other.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self is based in labels. It starts by the language we apply to delineate 'ourselves', the language we have for the border that our 'body' has in relation to another person's 'body', the thoughts that our body is separate to the chair that it is sitting on, the thoughts that the chair is separate to the floor and walls and so on. How it works is that these labels and thought patterns collude further with seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling (sensation) and smelling to reinforce the illusion. Seeing 'apple' + thought about 'apple' = reinforces illusion of separate 'apple'. Tasting 'apple' + thought about 'apple' = reinforces illusion of separate 'apple'. And so on with hearing and smelling. Feeling 'apple' + thought about 'apple' is an interesting one, this is emotion. This further drives up the illusion of a separate self because the thought labels say that 'I' am hangry, now that I am eating this apple I am happy. The emotion seems to stick strongly and fully cement the illusion of self. But it is still again a thought/label. This is how a separate self/objects is constituted and how the illusion of separate self arises.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels incredibly expansive. I feel more happy and fulfilled than ever before. I have always admired people who could fully and truly be themselves, there was something about them where I knew they felt unconcerned about what others think of them. Now I get this, I feel free to be myself. Because we are all one. It might be a contradiction to now feel comfortable to be my 'self'. Haha. But that's exactly how I feel. The difference from before I started this dialogue is that I was desperate to get somewhere and to know something. Now I feel settled and light. I feel lightness always! There have been some tough life circumstances, I have gotten upset about them, but a moment later, the experience of lightness in life remains. I think to myself, I really should stress more in order to get things done, but still the lightness remains. I can see 'no concepts' or 'no labels' quickly. Using Direct Experience, I see sensations for what they are too. It is all completely freeing.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Initially, what had me look and see there is no separate self is that my thoughts are uncontrollable, literally and forever. Seeing it point blank made me realise, there is no one here, even if I try to keep proving it. There is no way I can control my thoughts and think something when I want to think it. The last bit that pushed me over was seeing sensations for what they are - purely sensations. I had still been attaching to that there are negative and positive sensations. Yet when I looked and saw the sensation, the sensation just was. Seeing and paying attention to that there are actually neutral sensations happening was also beneficial. And then when I felt the whole range of sensations - positive, negative, neutral - I saw they are all just sensation. This directly connected me to the "stream" of everything.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decision is an illusion too. The 'self' thinks it makes decisions, however, when I stop to look, the thoughts, labels AND decisions are part of this "stream" of things. The 'self' has no control over it. If I want to think of a certain thing at the exact point that I want to think it, it is impossible. Therefore, it is the same for decisions. An example from experience is tonight is date night, I have to decide which place to go to. I instantly chose a new restaurant we haven't tried before - because it is new, it is quite cool, it is close to our place, it will feel like a treat, they might have interesting food. This stream of thoughts might be believed to be a decision. However, it still exists in that random stream of thoughts that we have no control over. Therefore, decision is an illusion.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention is an interesting one. In some ways, I think if I just THINK something enough, it will happen in reality. Vision boards, which I was about to do soon, planning for the future, which I was about to do on the weekend too, those are all things we do to bring about a certain intention for the future. Examples from my own experience of intention are now that I am applying for jobs, I am remaining hopeful, positive, excited, all with the intention that someone will offer me a job. I am clear now, intention is obsolete. This "stream" of things is random in every way and just happening. Therefore, intention is not possible.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

I will answer this question as it is written instead of drawing out conclusions like I did for my answer for decision. A description of free will is a person having agency over their life independent from other people and factors. It is when a person has a full say over their life. Examples of this from experience is when I bought a plane ticket to move to Singapore. But...as I write that I see the absurdity. I did truly believe I had free will at that point in time. Now I see differently. I also see that when I read the question, the word "describe" for me registers as the word "define". I am relating to this like a school test. My thoughts in my head are firing off, "oh this is like school test, oh I need to assess the situation and work out how to get the answer right, read the actual question and answer the actual question." There is absolutely no free will even if I try to prove it. It's just ongoing evidence that there is no free will and only THIS.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Again here, I want to go into defining. Choice is when you are presented with more than one option and freely chosen one of them. It's just hilarious to think we have all our lives had the agency to do that. It is all completely random. An example from experience is right now, I have to choose tiles for my shower floor. I came up with the choice because I cannot be bothered to think any more about the tiles. So I have just settled on one solution so that it gets done and finished. Did I really make that choice? I really don't know where that choice appeared from. And my explanation for how I came up with that choice sounds reasonable. But again, it is all random.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control is when you have power over something going a certain way. Example from experience is when I project managed a construction project to be completed successfully. The 'self' wants to answer this question correctly and directly. A random thought arises and I listen. Do I ultimately have any control?

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Being in this enquiry, I don't think anything makes things happen, things just happen and just are. How does it work? That's a good question. I don't quite know this. Looking and seeing in quietness, it seems again like thought labels make things happen. When actually, all that is happening is just THIS. Without thought labels, is anything happening at all?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I've been told I am responsible for everything. I am responsible for making my life work. I am responsible for being a contributing, good, philanthropic, pleasant, friendly, team player, leader, considerate person in the world to be socially accepted. I am responsible for getting it right! Otherwise I will be in trouble. My dad will come punish me, my teacher will scold me, everyone will laugh at me. What a relief. I see I am not responsible for anything now. THIS ALL JUST IS. Also, I see that even if all my thoughts are random, and I did happen to get things wrong, well THIS has no labels or concepts anyway. So there was nothing to be responsible for in the past, nothing to be responsible for in the future, not now, there is nothing to apologise for from the past. Everything just IS.

6) Anything to add?

Well I just had a semi-argument about no free will or choice or responsibility with my best friend. She doesn't like this and says it's not true for her. She says it overrides or denies her reality. That it interrupts her processes. I instantly go into being positional. And then I see no free will is still at play. I will see the sensation! See the thought labels. This is brilliant.

There is nothing else to add.

Thank you!

Love

Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat
Welcome home!

It appears that the Gateless Gate has been crossed, but as you know there is no Gate, no one to cross it, and no end to the journey. It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy. Of course it is not necessarily the end of our conversation.

There have been no more questions for you, which means that you will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

You can also consider being a guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference, which you will be able to access once your name has turned blue, join in any group discussions on FB, or make use of LU online support groups run by senior guides free of charge.

There are three of those, and they meet on Zoom – do contact the organisers for extra info, links and schedules:
1) Vince runs one on Wednesdays and weekends. Contact: vinceschubert@gmail.com
2) Luchana and Lubo run one on Thursdays. Contact: Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com
3) Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Contact: admin@ilonaciunaite.com

viewforum.php?f=49

You can also explore the ten Fetters, which is a structured way of approaching beliefs:
Kevin Shinilac has instructions on his site https://www.simplytheseen.com/

Pernille Damore and Todd Lent https://www.youtube.com/@TheAwakeningCurriculum

Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Wow, thank you so much for this!

I almost didn't want it to end and yes, as you said, this is not the end! Just the beginning of a beginningless journey!

I have really loved working with you. It has been crucial for my seeing. I'm grateful for your guidance.

It feels like everything was meant to be and like this was all predetermined and that I have somehow been here before! Very cool to come home!

Thank you for sharing all of that information and the links. I appreciate it. I will explore all of that. I definitely would appreciate staying in touch and the possibility of messaging you if I need.

I see that this is the beginning of exploring. I will continue to see sensations, the stories and labels I attach to them, emotions, beliefs. I would love to contact you and work through them.

Thank you, thank you, thank you again!!!

Ready for the endless journey.

I will chat soon!

Love

Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat
It really is my pleasure! I hope you decide to guide at some point as it really helps with seeing missed beliefs. Of course, no presure!

I would love to contact you and work through them.

Whenever you you have a problem or simply want a friendly nudge, just give me a shout and we'll have a look!
Love
Rali