See the sought

[tia22]

What are the thoughts referring to when they say 'there is a sense of self'?

Nothing can be found. There is an internal statement made; “there is a sense of self”. The words disappear, there is a blankness (which is an imaginary overlay/description of internal landscape), blinking eyes, a slight ring in the ears, a sense of internal looking (which is also imaginary). Senses and thoughts

What sensory input are they pointing to?

They are not pointing to any sensory input. Senses seem to be what they are and do not have a sense of identity inherent in them. It seems identification or claim of identity only occurs in thought.

So if there is a thinker or sense of self, what is it doing when it relates to thinking?

The thinker and sense of self are imaginary. They only exist in thought. When thoughts of the thinker or self are not present, the sense of self and the sense of thinker are not present either.

Let thoughts come and go, while you look for the thinker. Some questions that may help:

- Where is the thinker located?
- Does the thinker have a voice and speak the thoughts?
- Is the voice male or female?
- What are the characteristics of the thinker? (smoker, likes unicorns, eats too much candy)

- The thinker does not have a location, because it doesn’t exist. Thoughts can suggest otherwise, but there does not seem to be a source of thought.

-No. thoughts appear from nothing

-I’m not sure if the thoughts sound male or female. I would say they sound like the voice that comes out of my mouth, but that would be a a thought.

-nothing doesn’t have characteristics ;)

[Bluejay]

Do you feel like you are thinking thoughts and seeing/watching/noticing as you mentioned in a previous post?

For example, when you say:

The thinker and sense of self are imaginary. They only exist in thought. When thoughts of the thinker or self are not present, the sense of self and the sense of thinker are not present either.

If you feel like an entity/self is doing these things, then the belief is still in place. Once the belief is seen through, the sense of self cannot be fabricated.

To use a silly example, this would be like saying: When thoughts of Santa aren't there, there is no belief that Santa exists. But when I think about Santa, he feels real.

It's important to keep exploring whatever remaining sense of self is there.

What exactly is the thinker claiming to do?

What does it feel like it is doing?

Don't go into direct experience or thoughts about it. Instead, try to look like you would when watching the sunset.

[tia22]

Ok, thank you for reminding me to not go into direct experience. When I do these exercises I tend to sit quietly and move into more direct experience to get a feel of what seems to actually be happening.

It is getting difficult for me to differentiate between what the “me sense” thinks it is doing and what is actually happening.

There is a tightness in the chest right now that is being labeled a sensation of dissonance and confusion. The initial noticing of sensations appeared with a thought that said “I am feeling dissonance in my chest.” Which means that the self sense is still intact, correct? It seems like thought is in direct experience, but it is the sense of identifying with these thoughts that we are trying to look at, right?

It’s all starting to feel so jumbled together. Or maybe the sense of self feels so real that it’s skating by unnoticed? *sigh*

Frustration is arising. Also a sense of peace and lack of care that frustration is here.

Maybe the strongest sense of self is found in the noticer, the knower, the labeler. The one that wrote the above 2 sentences about frustration. Then the thoughts reminds me that this paragraph is also just the knower who has things all figured out. This is so fucking ridiculous 😂

All of this is fabricated by the mind. All of it

[Bluejay]

Thoughts trying to figure this out can lead to confusion. Let them be as best you can and focus on looking. 🙂

What watches or knows the feeling dissonance and confusion?

Where is the entity called 'I' that knows about these feelings?

[tia22]

I feel like that is all that is left to do- look.
I will check back in after a couple of days

[tia22]

It feels like the sense of self resides in the “subject”. Whatever is looking through these eyes. Which feels the same as the aliveness that I have mentioned previously. This is what feels like a sense of me when I do not look in direct experience. Once I start inquiring into what and where this sense is, the sense of self seems to dissipate and disappear into direct experience.

I can’t say that I understand how to inquire into the sense of self without ending up in direct experience.

[Bluejay]

It might help to think of direct experience as the same as sensory experience.

For example, a flat surface with legs underneath (direct/sensory experience) is called a table.

Find out which sensory experience is called 'me'.

As for the aliveness looking out of the eyes:

- What exactly is looking out of the eyes?
- What feels the aliveness?
- Which sensory experience has the name 'subject'?

Cheers! 🙂

[tia22]

Find out which sensory experience is called 'me'.

I cant find a sensory experience that is called ‘me’. Only thoughts that claim ‘me’. How can a thought be anything but a thought? A cloud that arises “I am Tia”, and then disappears into nothing. And even any sense of belief in those words is also a thought. Thoughts noticing, thoughts believing, thoughts searching. Noticing, believing, searching is all happening in fantasy.

As for the aliveness looking out of the eyes:

- What exactly is looking out of the eyes?
- What feels the aliveness?
- Which sensory experience has the name 'subject'?

1. I have no idea. Thoughts think they know (these thoughts are what have always been referred to as ‘me’), but how could they KNOW anything?
2. No clue
3. Sensory experience as labeled by thoughts. Which is not the experience itself. An imaginary overlay on experience. I don’t know what direct experience even is because it’s always been experienced through the filter of mind.

[Bluejay]

If it feels like there's a 'me' then the belief is still alive and kicking. You cannot think it away.

So notice where you feel a 'me' and look over and over.

If you find nothing, you could ask: There is no self -- is it true?

Don't look to any thought for an answer. Instead, search the sense of self. Let it live and explore it on the same level. Get to know it. It is important to discover if there is a self in the sense of self.

You also mentioned confusion earlier. This may be because you see there is no self, but you still feel a sense of self. This can create dissonance, and our brains want to resolve that as quickly as possible, which can lead to conclusions that can hinder inquiry (i.e. 'there is no self so no need to keep exploring')

The confusion is normal, so try to bear it for a bit longer if you can?

[tia22]

Ok, I will keep looking. I feel so much frustration and confusion. I don’t even know what I’m doing or what I am looking for. I don’t want to do this anymore, but the looking will continue. Hoping for grace and freedom

[tia22]

I don’t know if I can do this anymore. I feel like this has all been in my head. The mid is so strong and I don’t know what is real and what is imagined. I truly appreciate the incredible amount of time and attention you have given to me over the last 9-10 months. I just don’t know how to do this anymore

[Bluejay]

You're doing great. The frustration is to be expected. Take things one step at a time and give yourself time to take a break and relax if you need it.

Inquiry can be tough. I've wanted to give up many times :)

It might be helpful to explore: Is there a self that doesn't want to do this anymore?

👍

[tia22]

Ok. Thank you for the encouragement!
I will do the inquiry you suggested.

[tia22]

I asked multiple times yesterday Is there a self that doesn’t want to do this anymore?

Then sat and looked.

There were different sensations in the torso. A tenseness in the belly. The mind labels it as resistance or maybe fear. It is known that these are just labels. A tightness in the throat. Nothing that claims a self. I ask the sensations if they are the self. There is no confirmation of a self, also no obvious denial of a self. Just sensations.

I also looked for a self during work without quiet sitting and looking. There is a strong “sensation” of anger, disappointment and maybe a need to protect from complete hopelessness. I see that thoughts were creating a strengthening of this sensation and looked in the body. It was similar bodily sensations as I described in above paragraph. Pretty inoculous and no great intensity. The mind seems to create some “sense” of intensity or urgency, discomfort.

There are beliefs here. Layers of beliefs

[Bluejay]

That's great looking, Tia. 🙂

Each time you notice a whiff of a sense of self, keep looking into it.

Anger and disappointment is to be expected during this journey. The self often acts as a defense mechanism, so when it starts weakening, things can start to bubble up to the surface.

Can you explore this hopelessness a bit more?

What is it that will happen if there is complete hopelessness?

Let the emotions and related stories play out, and try to feel everything that comes up.