Creating clarity

[catwk]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand by this, that what "I/we" perceive as objects, environment, other people is purely, for want of a better word, a "universal" process. There is not really anyone perceiving anything. There is just a constant flow of processes happening. Including my believing I have a conscious thought and that I came up with this answer uniquely.

What are you looking for at LU? I am looking for guidance to continue sharpening my presence and awareness of this "universal" process, to continue clearly seeing the true nature of things so that I can live life wisely and ultimately, I am seeking what my Zen practice has termed as "enlightenment", which is seeing the truth of things and being free of the illusion of the separate self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? What I expect from a guided conversation is simple, clear conversations that will shift my thinking about the illusion of a separate self, offer practices I can take into my daily life that will have me live a life of "no self" and lead me to a state where I am completely free of the delusions and distractions of the self.

I would like to create a sacred partnership with a guide. I am creating a partnership that is based in integrity, trust and empowerment. I am expecting the guide to be fully committed that I gain clarity and ultimately "enlightenment". I am open to contributing back to the community and become a guide also if I am able to see things clearly and as they are.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? My experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry include being a Zen student of the Mountain Moon Zen Sangha for 6 months.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi catwk
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU! Please confirm that you have read them!
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
By the way...
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9
Why only 9? What is so important or fixed in your beliefs that you can't question them?
Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali!

I'm so happy to receive your response to my post.

I would love for you to be my guide. Thank you for offering.

Cat is short for Cathleen. You may call me either Cat or Cathleen. Both are fine.

I have read the FAQ and the video instructions.

Thank you for advising to start a word document with my questions. I will do that.

Ok, yes we can do a daily conversation. I am located in Brisbane, Australia, which is the Australia Eastern Standard Timezone. What timezone are you in?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9
Why only 9? What is so important or fixed in your beliefs that you can't question them?

I actually put in 11 not 9! So I am very ready.

Looking forward to getting started.

Thank you so much!

Love

Cathleen

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I actually put in 11 not 9! So I am very ready.

I apologise. I meant this for another client :). I prefer people with 11 for readiness as only a burning desire to see through this could really help, so great!

I am located in Brisbane, Australia, which is the Australia Eastern Standard Time zone. What time zone are you in?

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

Looking forward to getting started.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for your quick reply.

I will be sure to subscribe.

Here are my answers:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

- I'm not sure if this is a trick question or not. I believe what will be different is that once I see things clearly and that there is no real, inherent 'self', then I will relate to the things around me in a less serious way and be at ease with life. I also think there may not be any difference at all except for that I see that there is no 'self'.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

- What I expect to happen is a profound shift in the way I view 'self' and no 'self'. Then this will lead me to enlightenment and I will be free from suffering and perhaps even be able to be a Zen teacher. I expect that this will, ultimately, fulfil the purpose of my life and then I will be done with life!

3. What do you want not to happen?

- I don't want to take years and years and never really see that there is no 'self'.

4. What are you hoping for?

- I am hoping that it will be easy, I will get it all quickly, I will pop, I will be able to use this to get better at my Zen practice.

5. What is missing?

- follow through, diligence, commitment over a long period of time.

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat

Ok, yes we can do a daily conversation.

Please let’s try to stick to daily conversation as the momentum is really important. Of course life happens, but please let me know that you won’t be able to reply so I know that you haven’t given up. It also helps with accountability ;)

Back to your answer…Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

- What I expect to happen is a profound shift in the way I view 'self' and no 'self'. Then this will lead me to enlightenment and I will be free from suffering and perhaps even be able to be a Zen teacher. I expect that this will, ultimately, fulfil the purpose of my life and then I will be done with life!

Provided that there is someone to be enlightened … An enlightened “no self” maybe? What is this that seeks enlightenment and can be enlightened?
What do you mean with “you will be done with life”?

Let’s make it this clearer… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Ok I will stick with a daily conversation. Apologies for the time lag.

Ok I will continue to set aside my expectations.

Provided that there is someone to be enlightened … An enlightened “no self” maybe? What is this that seeks enlightenment and can be enlightened?
What do you mean with “you will be done with life”?

Right, I get what you are pointing to! What seeks enlightenment is my attachment to a self.

What I mean by "be done with life" means, I will have "made it", arrived to the end goal, lived life as wisely and completely as possible by seeing the nature of life. The more I write, the more I see that this idea is definitely coming from my belief that there is a self!

Let’s make it this clearer… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

When I look for the I, things start to become fuzzy. I can't pinpoint it.

If you say there is no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up is peace.

Where exactly did I look, is first to the physical body which I perceive as 'my body', and then I look outward to my external environment.

What I found is that there seems to be no separation between the body and the outward external environment.

What appears are:

- feelings of expansiveness, out of body observation, calm, silence

- sensations of my hearing seeming to be more acute, my chest seems to be open, light and free, light tingling in my chest

- thoughts that I feel grounded, I am floating, where is the world?, you are over there, this is the feeling I have been after!, am I getting it?, I am everywhere

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat

What I mean by "be done with life" means, I will have "made it", arrived to the end goal, lived life as wisely and completely as possible by seeing the nature of life. The more I write, the more I see that this idea is definitely coming from my belief that there is a self!

Haha. Yes! Keep on looking into these believes. Does life have a goal? Whose goal is this?

When I look for the I, things start to become fuzzy. I can't pinpoint it.

If you say there is no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up is peace.

Where exactly did I look, is first to the physical body which I perceive as 'my body', and then I look outward to my external environment.
…

Thank you for this! It gives me an idea where to begin. Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, take a look and locate them. That’s how to look.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

So, there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is another example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple (or any other object that is handy).



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for your reply.

Does life have a goal? Whose goal is this?

Thank you for pointing to this. I get that my 'self' has a strong association to reaching a goal and then I will have accomplished something meaningful or purposeful with this life. This kind of speaking and thinking all comes from the notion of I. I, I, I !!! In my glimpses of seeing the true nature - that there is no separate self - I get that all of this is just one process, all arising and there is no end, no goal, no accomplishments. Everything just is.

Thank you very much for distinguishing for me so clearly how to LOOK. This is extremely helpful and it has not been stated as clearly as that before. I think that before when I have been LOOKING, I have also been mixing it up with things that I KNOW from the past.

Ok I will stick with DE/AE only. I am clear about this. Thank you!

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No, it cannot be found. It is a label that I have constructed from past definitions. If I really examine, there is no "apple", just what is. This is now becoming clear in how it relates to no "self". Thank you!

Love,

Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat

No, it cannot be found. It is a label that I have constructed from past definitions. If I really examine, there is no "apple", just what is. This is now becoming clear in how it relates to no "self". Thank you!

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Yes, I am clear that the apple is a thought/label that points to seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, feeling (sensations), thoughts arising.

May I please have some time to break down activities into Direct Experience exactly like the list you sent me?

I can report back tomorrow.

Thank you!

Love

Cat

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Here are my lists of my Direct Experience of daily activities below.

Having a conversation with my husband:
Seeing my husband, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling the air in the apartment, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the floor of the apartment while I stand, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting mouth, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the voice of my husband, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about husband, simply = thought (thinking)

Collating information for my tax lodgement:
Seeing bank statements on my laptop screen, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling the air in the apartment, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling keyboard, mouse and chair I am sitting on, cold air on skin, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting mouth, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing voices and music outside and clicking of keyboard, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about collating tax information, simply = thought (thinking)

Meditating:
Seeing backs of eyelids and furniture in front of me, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling the air in the apartment, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling meditation cushion under my bum and knees, air through nostrils and clothes on body and stomach when it expands and contracts, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting mouth, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing voices and music outside and train arriving, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about breathing in and out, simply = thought (thinking)

Looking at my phone:
Seeing my phone, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling the air in the apartment, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the weight of the phone, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting mouth, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing fingers against the screen, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about using the phone, simply = thought (thinking)

Catching a train:
Seeing the train station, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling the train station, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling feet on ground of the train station, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting mouth, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing train announcements, trains arriving, people talking, cars in distance, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about catching the train, simply = thought (thinking)

Eating breakfast:
Seeing my breakfast, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling the breakfast, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the toast, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the breakfast, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the crunch of toast, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about eating breakfast, simply = thought (thinking)

Love,

Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat

Seeing my breakfast, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling the breakfast, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the toast, simply = sensation (feeling)
…

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

Please give me an example of a daily activity broken down into DE labels with each of your replies!

For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Thank you so much for your reply.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It definitely feels new and not something I am used to. I keep having thoughts of trying to get the exercise right. Then I label that as, thought about exercise = thought (thinking). I see that the thought is not in my control. The exercise is making me stop, take a moment and be aware. It's a completely new level of awareness for me.

Please give me an example of a daily activity broken down into DE labels with each of your replies!

I apologise but I am not clear on the above statement. I thought I had already completed that? Could you explain a bit more about what you meant by this please?

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I honestly thought that there is someone recognising the thought and being aware of it. But the more I sit and watch the thoughts, the more it seems that the thoughts are exactly like looking at an apple and seeing it's colour. The colour of the apple just is. And the thoughts that I am observing seem to be the same too. They are just there.

I don't see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking.

I do feel like I can do something to make a particular thought appear. Like, while I observe my thoughts, I will have a thought that says make sure you observe your thoughts and do the exercise. But the more I observe my thoughts, the more it all feels like a jumble and that perhaps I don't really have any control of the thoughts.

I don't think I could have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment!

I can't really select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts. I repeated the thought happy, happy, happy. But then I had a whole, various number of other thoughts too.

Likewise, I can't choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts either. Although, I have believed I can do this quite well in life, whenever I am struggling, I will surpass my negartive thoughts and be successful regardless of my negarive thoughts. However, during this moment while I observe my thoughts, it really seems like all my thoughts are just coming and going haphazardly and I have absolutely no control over them.

I can't pick and choose any kind of thought.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

1. I am not good at this.
2. I am a fool
3. You don't know anything
4. I am happy
5. My stomach abs are sore from this mornings exercise

No, I could not pick the order of their appearance. No, I didn't know which will be the second and fourth thought.

I tried out stopping thinking a thought in the middle and it seems quite hard. The thought has already been thought about by the time I try to stop it.

It seems like my 5 thoughts have an organised sequence. All about my assessment of how well I am doing the exercise. But at the time when I was thinking the thoughts, it really did feel quite random.

Are thoughts 100% true?

I know from past experience that the content of thoughts aren't 100% true. But based on this exercise, thoughts are as true as the red of an apple. Thoughts just arise and that is that. I don't know if I answered this question properly or not.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

I am a series of seeing, smelling, feeling, tasting, hearing thoughts all happening at once, ongoingly, continuously, never stopping. Like the background ringing in my ears in my silent apartment. I am like that.

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat
Good looking!!

Please give me an example of a daily activity broken down into DE labels with each of your replies!

I apologise but I am not clear on the above statement. I thought I had already completed that? Could you explain a bit more about what you meant by this please?

Yes you did, and I want you to keep doing it every day. Thus, the request for an example with each reply. As you said, it is not something that you are used to doing, and we want it to become a habit :)

The exercise is making me stop, take a moment and be aware. It's a completely new level of awareness for me.

When you say, that the exercise is making you to become aware, what is that that is aware? Is that awareness separate from the whatever is happening (e.g. thinking, seeing, etc)?

I am a series of seeing, smelling, feeling, tasting, hearing thoughts all happening at once, ongoingly, continuously, never stopping. Like the background ringing in my ears in my silent apartment. I am like that.

Is there a “I” in seeing , smelling, feeling,…? What is that “I-am-ness”? Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human?
Is it what you've taken as "you"?
Love
Rali