Stream Entry

[Alless]

I hear you Nicholas

I'll wait till you have a chance to complete these questions and we can check in on how to go from there.


With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

there is only ever one way. Stop trying to figure this out and stop trying to find any other way other than LOOKING DIRECTLY. There can only ever be one way to find the truth .....looking stripped of all thought.

How do I look directly? All answers come from the mind.
Stripped of all thought… how does that work? If I can’t look at the mind for any answers… then where do I look? Is it possible to “realize things” without mind? I’m asking seriously. Is there an example of this? Can we do a quick test?

If I look at my BLACK handkerchief and ask myself “which color is this?” and then I ignore all thoughts…
My mind is going to start working, but if I ignore everything then I will never be able to process any kind of an answer.

Even thoughts like “there’s no black, only concepts” are coming from the mind!

I guess this question wouldn’t be appropiate right?

(on the other hand) (Wait a sec… when looking for the TRUTH this means ALL answers from the mind are ALWAYS wrong, right? Because it can’t be conceptualized.)

(6 doors)
I could ask how on earth do you come to that conclusion?

6 aspects of experiencing.
Seeing, hearing, sensations, smell, taste.
Thoughts but not content.

What’s the point of looking at thoughts if I can’t look at their content? What are they then? Or do they have some kind of a quality outside of content?

Rather let me ask ....do thoughts perceive?

Thoughts don’t. same way as sounds don’t perceive.
Mind perceives. Thoughts only happen at the mind.

Does control perceive?

So control is just another thought uh? Because for control to exist you need a controller…. And then there’s no controller.
Mind perceives control

Are they not the same notion? How are being in charge and being in control essentially different?

I’m dumb. They are the same. Control of the body and control of the thoughts. But sometimes the body does things automatically (scratching an itch), like the mind (endless music) without apparent control.

There still seems to be a lot of confusion. What is causing it? Where is it arising from?

“a lot of confusion” is too broad, we need to dial in which things are causing confusion.

So I’m just going to repeat the same questions

+ how do I look directly if all answers are thoughts or from the mind?
+ why looking at thoughts if we ignore their content? They are not useful then
+ control is an illusion, a belief. But here’s the kicker… I don’t believe it’s a belief! Damn.
But then I’m an idiot, because you are telling me that it’s a belief and I’m not trusting you.

+ we are trying to see that there’s no self right? No controller, no observer. No I. no ME. No entity.
Ok, yeah I remember.

Yeah I get it…. It’s like you said. I already “got it”… it’s just the mind clouding everything. It’s already “here”, it’s been the entire time. But thoughts/mind obscure it.

[Alless]

We'll go to your last statement Nicholas

Yeah I get it…. It’s like you said. I already “got it”… it’s just the mind clouding everything. It’s already “here”, it’s been the entire time. But thoughts/mind obscure it.

I need to check with you .....
Is this your actual experience that you are describing here?




Is what you say here beyond any shadow of a doubt?




Could you in any way be convinced other wise?




We can come back and look at your other questions in your post once you have covered the 3 questions above.

However if when you say "Yeah I get it" is truth for you, then the answers to many of the questions in your post will likely be obvious without needing a response from me.
Are the answers to your questions obvious? Do you still need a response from me?





With love



Alan

[Nicholas]

Is this your actual experience that you are describing here?

while reading LU testimonials and some other conversations from the archives I read something that said along the lines of “you are already here” or “it’s already here” or “liberation is not a state” or something like that! Then I remembered what you said earlier… “you already got it”.

Then I thought about that time I “saw” for a brief moment how “everything” is all the same, the same substance.

Also the other day I had some curious experience where things, or everything…. Just felt ok. It wasn’t 100% clear. It was some kind of a very partial state.

So how is it possible to partially see and then lose it? It’s not possible. It’s already there, but it’s obscured by beliefs/thoughts/mind.

This is the reason I’m confused, because I think it’s just my mind playing tricks. I know there’s something HERE.

I know life is not what we think it is. I still don’t see it totally clear. So that means… there’s “things” in the mind that need to be “released” or “cleared”.

So this… conversation. This… work we are doing here. It must be finished, it must be completed. If it’s not, whatever “thing” I saw will just be completely obscured and I will forget about it.

Is what you say here beyond any shadow of a doubt?

yep

Could you in any way be convinced otherwise?

I can forget, I can put this all the way inside my mind and be absorbed all over again by the dream.
But deep down I know… I can’t be convinced otherwise.

Are the answers to your questions obvious? Do you still need a response from me?

Let me see… these two are not entirely clear.

(
+ how do I look directly if all answers are thoughts or from the mind?
+ why looking at thoughts if we ignore their content? They are not useful then
)

This one… yes. It’s an illusion. hope I don’t forget it. Maybe it’s part of the process. Forget. Remember. Forget. Remember. Hide. Show. Disappear. Appear. Only will be 100% clear when fully seen.

(
+ control is an illusion, a belief. But here’s the kicker… I don’t believe it’s a belief! Damn.
But then I’m an idiot, because you are telling me that it’s a belief and I’m not trusting you.
)

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas

I feel your sincerity

So how is it possible to partially see and then lose it? It’s not possible. It’s already there, but it’s obscured by beliefs/thoughts/mind.

This is the reason I’m confused, because I think it’s just my mind playing tricks. I know there’s something HERE..

Yes, the mind is playing tricks.
One of the tricks it often plays is to convince you that the thought you are thinking is real.
I'll do my best to give you an example.

Let's say you and I met each other for a coffee. And I took a picture of you. And for the rest of our conversation I had my eyes glued to this picture as I talked to you. You might say "Look at me" And I would respond "I am" Why might I be convinced that I am looking at you? Because the image in the photo is a representation of you that looks like you. But its not you - its just a representation of you.

You might say that is crazy, I would never do that. Yet that is what the mind does all the time. We find ourselves experiencing the world through THOUGHT (images and words) rather than through DIRECT EXPERIENCE that is fresh and new every moment. We draw on memory (labels [images and words] we have learned to associate with specific objects) and we're actually attending to them rather than the fresh new moment of experience.

I'm going to address your questions with this exercise.


Do this again and again.

As you sit in any chair and close your eyes……

Please LOOK for any place in your DIRECT EXPERIENCE where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between your butt and the chair? Or only the sensation with no clear division?



If you feel able, please describe the sensation you experience as best you can



It is simple, direct & nonverbal. Just LOOK and FEEL into your DIRECT experiencing of it. Don’t think about it at all Just LOOK and FEEL. THEN - and only then - engage (this is where thought fills its true function) with thought to write what is true in your experiencing of this.

Just this for today. We'll take this very slowly.


With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

how about this... I already have the answer. but what if I keep doing it for... let's say 3 days? so 2 more days.
will answer on 2 August.

why? because, The answer to this somehow comes quickly. I just want to be 100% sure. because yeah I could answer and it would be the "right answer". but maybe there's more to it. I want to feel it as fully and as deeply as I can.

[Alless]

That's good Nicholas 😊😊😊

[Nicholas]

Please LOOK for any place in your DIRECT EXPERIENCE where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between your butt and the chair? Or only the sensation with no clear division?

If you feel able, please describe the sensation you experience as best you can

Oh lord. So this is what I did. I sit down. There’s a sensation. Let’s call it “butt in chair”. Now I wake up, that sensation is gone. But what is there? I feel my pants. Great, now I take off my pants. What do I feel now? Cold air. I ignore that. I try to feel ONLY my butt… it’s very subtle but it’s there, a small "pressure".

Put my pants again. Sit down.

It’s pretty clear there’s no dividing line. There are several sensations apart from that though! And that adds some confusion. There’s sensation of feet on floor. Of footwear. Of pants. Of slippers. Of clothing.

But the moment I put my ass on the chair… it’s just that a NEW ONE, appears! And it’s actually… kind of… separated in different sensations. It’s not just one. Seems like a mass, but… there’s different levels of pressure and sensation depending of where I look.

Let’s look at the hand. In the air. Feeling some cold air. Feeling some numbness or heat in fingers. Some vibration. Some tingling. Some tickling.

I place it on the chair, I grab the chair. It’s cold. I release it. Still feeling some cold.
I’m going to slowly put my finger on the chair to see if I can sense a division.

Some strange thought appears, I don’t know if I should pay attention to it so I’m just going to say it. The sensation itself marks the division.

I’m going to use my finger on table if you don’t mind. It’s smaller, easier to handle.
So where finger ends and table begins? Let’s see

If I don’t touch the table, I cannot feel it. But I can feel my finger or sensations in it.
When I touch the table, a new sensation appears.

Ah damnit. There’s separation. Fingers ends on any finger sensation and table starts on any new sensation when touching the table.

Ok… this is mind hijacking.

Ok, only looking at sensations, do they tell anything? Do they give any info?
They are different sensations.

Going back to butt in chair. There’s the sensation of the butt, and then the sensation of the butt touching the chair!

So… to answer this… the butt ends on a butt sensation closer to the skin and the chair begins on the sensation that appears when sitting. (maybe this is wrong because somewhat mind is trying to apply "geography"? and that doesn't exist when only looking at sensations? tricky)

It’s what I feel. 2 different sensations, marking a division.

Maybe I did this wrong? Should I only focus on the “new sensation”?

In that case… there’s no dividing line, there’s only a “new sensation” which is “butt in chair”.

So… am I correct but also wrong?

[Alless]

OK Nicholas,

Ok… this is mind hijacking.

There is mind jacking all the way through your post. Look at your post .....
Can you see how you are continually referring to mind's interpretation of experience?



Jumping from exercise to exercise, trying this and that is just other ways the mind is trying to figure this all out.

One of the guides here at LU spent three months with this one exercise. Just this Butt on Chair exercise and no other.

So now Nicholas simply do this.

Feel into the sensation experienced as you sit on a chair. After feeling only into that sensation please describe it.
Sitting on a chair with your eyes closed and FEELING DIRECTLY INTO THE SENSATION and with no reference to any mental activity.....
Where does the sensation start and end?



Does the sensation have center?




Does the raw sensation itself tell you exactly where the chair is and the body is?




Does the sensation tell you that you are sitting on a chair?




How do you know from that you are sitting on a chair and not a park bench?



Does the pure sensation itself tell you anything?




What color is the sensation?




Can you see the sensation directly?




Where are you going to look to see the sensation? (Really pay attention to this question)




How do you know it does / doesn't have color?




What is the sensation made of?




How would you describe the sensation in detail without reference to anything else, without comparing it to anything else - just the description of the raw sensation?




This is enough for now.



With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

still at this, will answer as soon as I can.

take care

[Alless]

Thanks Nicholas. Do it at your pace.😊

[Nicholas]

Hey Alan. Been re-reading our thread, trying to… find my blind spots.

I’m still not doing this right.

Every question I answered so far… has come from the mind.
Probably nothing I did is valid then.

Im full of contradictions, and I still can’t differentiate answers from/not from the mind. Can’t know when I’m seeing clearly, and when I’m not.

I see something, I put it into words, how do I know that hasn’t been already tainted by thought?

You repeat to me “you keep analyzing with the mind”, “LOOK DIRECTLY”. Over and over and over and over again.

Even when I thought I was focusing on MY EXPERIENCE…. You still tell me “this is mind trying to figure it out” and I don’t see it. Completely blind.

Can you see how you are continually referring to mind's interpretation of experience?

No, I don’t see it. I thought I was describing my experience.

So I don’t know what to do with the next questions… let me show you an example:

Does the sensation tell you that you are sitting on a chair?

I could just tell you “no”. and that would be the right answer.

But it doesn’t mean it was from looking. I know the answer because I already “learnt” that sensations don’t give information. They are just there. The mind gives the info.

I mean, I sort of know the “right answers”. But I know them from the mind. Not from my experience.

I could still answer the questions, they come “quick” but that doesn’t mean anything for me. Answers still come from the mind.

I don’t know what to do. I think this is the reason I’m not really “progressing”. Because I still have the fundamentals wrong. I have no idea how to LOOK in my experience without referring to mind.

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas

I mean, I sort of know the “right answers”. But I know them from the mind. Not from my experience.

I could still answer the questions, they come “quick” but that doesn’t mean anything for me. Answers still come from the mind.

I don’t know what to do. I think this is the reason I’m not really “progressing”. Because I still have the fundamentals wrong. I have no idea how to LOOK in my experience without referring to mind.

I have to say I so love your honesty. This is a really important juncture in this investigation.

You are not the only one who has ever had this sort of challenge so take heart ! And there are ways to try and address this. So we'll try different approaches and see what happens.

I'm going to ask you to do what follows without reporting a bunch of answers. No need to go to the mind.

Find yourself a comfortable spot.

Put your hand on your leg. Just feel the sensation.

Put your other hand on the back of your head. Just feel that sensation.

Can you feel the difference between the two sensations? (No need to tell me right now)

Now feel the sensation in your lungs as you breathe in.

Feel the sensation of the air in your nostrils as you breathe in.

Can you feel the difference?

Now put your hand in some warm water.

While you are holding one hand in warm water can you simply feel whatever sensation is present right this moment in your other hand. If you can't feel what sensation is in the hand that is not in the water hold your thumb against your index finger.

Can you feel the difference in sensations in each hand?

Now just a couple of questions.

Can you feel the difference in the sensations as you compare them?



To compare the sensations where did you go?



Just these two questions Nicholas. We are going to take this very slowly.

I so appreciate you sticking with this as you are doing.


With love


Alan

[Nicholas]

Can you feel the difference in the sensations as you compare them?

yes

To compare the sensations where did you go?

On one hand… there’s no need for comparing because all sensations all different (this is on the background) it’s something primal (YEAH I’M SURE THIS IS MIND TOO)

(maybe mind is making sure I never look, so it keeps me distracted over and over and over and over again?)

But then…

I guess mind :(
It dissected everything… like this:

“hand in leg and hand on the back of my head. the sensation is almost the same because it’s the same clothing (I’m fully covered), but hand in leg feels some sensations in hand, plus fabric, plus leg pressure, plus some heat. Hand in the back of my head is pressure in head, fabric, and it’s colder”

“can’t feel sensation in lungs, but can feel my stomach inflating and deflating”

“sensation in nostrils is extremely subtle, it’s cold when inhaling, imperceptible when exhaling”

“hand in warm water is… too encompassing, mutes every sensation in the hand and there’s only warm water”

“other hand just feels some cold air, and some pressure”

I so appreciate you sticking with this as you are doing.

Thanks for your patience and guidance (I appreciate it)

[Alless]

Take this real slowly Nicholas

Can you feel the difference in the sensations as you compare them?

yes

So you can feel the difference. This is good.

“hand in warm water is… too encompassing, mutes every sensation in the hand and there’s only warm water”

Lovely. "It's too encompassing" you say....
Put your hand in warm water again.
For each of the following questions simply feel for just a moment and then tell me what is felt.
Is there just the one sensation felt?



When you say every sensation in the hand is muted because the warm water sensation is too encompassing
Does that mean all other sensations are totally blocked out?



Now feel in very gently. Are the muted sensations still there even though they may be very subtle? Can any subtle feeling be felt as well as the encompassing sensation?



Is the warm water sensation a 10/10 block or is there somehow a faint awareness of the other sensations?



If the warm water sensation is not 10/10 how would you rate it in terms of how much it blocks the other sensations on a scale out of 10. Is it 9.5 block or a 9 block or an 8 block? simply give the first answer that comes without analyzing it.





With love


Alan