Cutting through the veil

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Elk1
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Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby Elk1 » Sun Jul 28, 2024 2:00 pm

Hi James,
where is the narrative coming from?
I think, as alluded to in the video, the narratives might have had some sort of survival purpose for us human beings, so they have been passed down by generations. They are constructed by societal, and cultural norms. Sometimes also due to one's own experiences.

I liked parts of the video, also if we adopt a bayesian viewpoint of priors and top-down processing, neuroscience does have evidence for this reality to be an illusion, to be not as what we perceive it to be, yet the way we perceive it is useful (or not).

I was out dancing yesterday and I had a mesmerizing experience on the dancefloor. I saw through the illusions and could transcend them, there was no me, no time, only experience and then everything felt weightless and clear.
I think this moment happened because of LU

jrm72

Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby jrm72 » Sun Jul 28, 2024 2:42 pm

Hi Debora,

I think you're there in terms of seeing through the illusion of self.

I'd caution, from personal experience, of being over analytical, it's all an experiential thing at this point.

Always enjoy the dancing, with or without a transcendent experience.

There's a set of questions that I can post. Once you've answered them, they get circulated amongst the guides here, to see if they agree you've seen through self (they may have extra questions). Once that's done, you get access to some extra parts of LU and a Facebook group for ongoing support.

Would you like the questions?


Welcome to the beginning.


❤️🖖

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Elk1
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Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby Elk1 » Mon Jul 29, 2024 7:05 am

Good morning James,

Great, yes send me the questions

jrm72

Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby jrm72 » Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:24 am

Good morning Debora,


Ok here are the questions.
Respond from experience (we're not being intellectual here)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


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Elk1
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Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby Elk1 » Tue Jul 30, 2024 11:27 pm

Hi James,
I'm working on the questions, yet I need the proper time and energy for it. I'll respond tomorrow

jrm72

Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby jrm72 » Wed Jul 31, 2024 6:55 am

❤️🖖

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Elk1
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Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby Elk1 » Wed Jul 31, 2024 10:36 pm

Hi James
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No there isn't a separate, isolated, solid self existing. There is awareness, experience or whatever word can be used to describe the subjective living sensation of experiencing life, sense-input, thoughts and all, yet this doesn't mean there is a self. It is more like a label being added to this experience post hoc. And there was never this "self", even though it did seem like there was a distinct me, there was not and will never be.
Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.
For example, I run to the train, yet I miss it by a few seconds. I am out of breath, my heart rate is accelerated, I feel heat, sweat and there are thoughts about how stupid that I missed the train now and that I will be late for work and there is an emotion therefore arising of fear and anger. These experiences give then rise to the impression, that there is a me, who is angry and anxious about having missed the train. That if something external (train) gives rise to something internal (bodily sensations) there must be a ME to who this is happening to.

I am stroking a pillow, it feels soft and pleasant to my hand. I like the sensation, therefore there needs to be an I that touches the pillow and likes it.

There is a decision I want to make, for example, which socks to wear. There is an internal voice chattering that the blue ones fit better with the outfit yet the grey ones are more comfy. The presence of these thoughts, of this inner dialogue made me assume that there is a self who is "talking", being rational in deciding, otherwise there wouldn't be this inner voice.

How life has changed:
I keep pausing in situations where usually I would be caught up in a situation, in a narrative, in an emotion and ask myself if this really matters the way it seems and then I see the emptiness of the situation and it becomes lighter, less serious because there is no one I need to defend, to protect, to prove. Everything happens and that's it. I think it has added a certain lightness to situations.
How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
There is this lightness, as I mentioned above. It feels rather liberating, relaxing, and comforting.

I think before LU, I thought it would require giving something up, sacrificing something if I give up the idea of a Self. Now I realize that this is not the case, it is easy and not so different than I thought it would be. In a sense ,that I still do the same things and have similar thoughts and all, yet it has this quality of lightness. I somehow can't seem to find a better adjective than lightness to describe it.
I think I used to sometimes get caught up in situations, taking things personally or more heavy, this has changed. And my expectations and way of viewing enlightenment has also shifted.
Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?
One important inquiry was when I looked at what this inner voice, which I thought was Me, is. I observed it and asked what is this really. And then I realized it is nothing else than talking, just internally. And I don't think that talking, that my voice is Me. It is just a way of communicating ideas.

Another event was on the dancefloor. I was caught up in daydreams while dancing and then I came back to the present moment and asked myself who is dancing and thinking and moving this body, it is moving even though the thoughts where somewhere else. And it was clear to me that there is dancing, there is movement and other people around and thoughts and awareness, yet no self. And everything only existed in relation to everything else and it didn't really matter (in a beautiful way). Everything felt light and relative and easy. In a sense I could see the emptiness in me, in the people around me, in the situation. Everything was just experience in different forms, nothing else.

Another experience was at a talk, in which there were some statements I disagreed with talked about. I felt aversion rise up and unwillingness to pay attention, my mind was drifting. Then the thought came, that everything is changing, impermanent. Who is that which disliked the message? Who is critical and bored? And then there was no one, nothing who has these aversions. Nothing to do, nothing to be, things were just as they were and thats beautiful and alright. Again lightness, but also joy. ANd then quickly mySELF came back, feeling shame/guilt for doing my own thing at the talk.
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice, and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.
A decision is choosing between options: for example, do I turn my hand up or down now. It is the result of a choice. A choice, which is the possibility of different actions or outcomes or such. Free will is something that we human beings very much believe, or like to believe we have: the free will to choose by our own making. To not be determined, destined for a certain choice.
Things happen because of other things happening, its a chain reaction of many different steps. In a way, it is actually difficult or impossible for us to know why things happen, and why we do what we do. We want to believe, that we act voluntarily, rationally, and self-determined out of free will. Yet things happen and then sometimes we are aware when they are already happening. If I am typing really fast a random word, I am aware of what I am typing only during the typing or afterwards, not before. Even though I would like to believe that I am choosing, and controlling what I am typing.
Like I mentioned above, the dancing- I was dancing, my body was moving to the music but I was not dancing. It happened. I was aware that I am dancing yet the decision to move my arm a certain way, for example, I was not deliberately doing. It was happening and I was part of it. Yet there was no doer.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
I am not sure exactly how to understand this question.
I am responsible for how I act and deal with things internally and externally. Yet this responsibility is not something heavy, as it used to feel for me. Responsible yet also letting go of it. For example, when I am late and I miss the train, I am responsible for how I react, if I get angry or upset, and if I, therefore, would let out my frustration on other people. I am not responsible for the whole situation though, or how other people would react to me in response. So I am responsible for how I react to what's happening yet not for what's happening.

jrm72

Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby jrm72 » Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:48 am

Good Morning Debora,


Thank you for the answers.

One point of clarification -

The answers to the first question and the last question seem to clash.
Just focus on those two answers and let me know what comes up for you.


❤️🖖

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Elk1
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Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby Elk1 » Thu Aug 01, 2024 9:28 pm

Hi James,

so youre saying that what I wrote about no self, and about responsibility clashes.

I don't necessarily see a paradox here. I think responsibility can exist without a separate self existing.
Even though there is not really a ME controlling things, whatever comes out is still something we can take responsibility for, since we do live in a shared world with other beings. Not because there is something I need to defend, but because of the existence of others. It is in a sense, also something applied post hoc, same as the label of myself.

jrm72

Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby jrm72 » Thu Aug 01, 2024 11:04 pm

Hi Debora,

We all need to pay bills, deal with people, eat, deal with health issues etc, and these responsibilities will still get done.

The others out there can only exist in direct experience. But let's say we're alone on a dessert island, we would still have things that have to be done to survive.
So what is it that takes responsibility?

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Elk1
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Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby Elk1 » Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:31 pm

Hi James,

sorry yesterday I lacked the headspace to reply.

I realize, that responsibility in general a big topic is in my life, something where I am doing a lot of self-ing.
So what is it that takes responsibility?
I don't know. If I really look at what is there that takes responsibility, I get to the same place as when I search for who is thinking or seeing.
So would there is noTHING responsible, therefore imply that there is nothing I am responsible for?

jrm72

Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby jrm72 » Sat Aug 03, 2024 11:07 pm

Hi Debora,

Back near the beginning of this dialogue you wrote -

I am attached to this life, this world, the people I love and my way of living. This attahcmnet makes me reluctant to let go. Then, I think I am also scared of the consequences of awakening, that it will bring a radical shift to the way I live my life, and there attachment comes into play again.

You came to see that you wouldn't lose your loves etc but gain freedom.

It's similar here with responsibility, you won't lose the ability to deal with what needs to be dealt with, you'll just see what is actually happening.

You've already seen your not in control of your thoughts and action's, now it's coming to the realisation of what this truly means.


❤️🖖

jrm72

Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby jrm72 » Sat Aug 03, 2024 11:07 pm

Hi Debora,

Back near the beginning of this dialogue you wrote -

I am attached to this life, this world, the people I love and my way of living. This attahcmnet makes me reluctant to let go. Then, I think I am also scared of the consequences of awakening, that it will bring a radical shift to the way I live my life, and there attachment comes into play again.

You came to see that you wouldn't lose your loves etc but gain freedom.

It's similar here with responsibility, you won't lose the ability to deal with what needs to be dealt with, you'll just see what is actually happening.

You've already seen your not in control of your thoughts and action's, now it's coming to the realisation of what this truly means.


❤️🖖

jrm72

Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby jrm72 » Sat Aug 03, 2024 11:08 pm

Somehow the last message got posted twice 🙂

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Elk1
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Re: Cutting through the veil

Postby Elk1 » Sun Aug 04, 2024 9:34 pm

Good evening James,
now it's coming to the realisation of what this truly means.
I think I get what you mean. (Writing I think I... seems a bit misplaced whenever I use it, yet its practical) There isn't really an I which is thinking or doing things, therefore there is not an I, that is responsible. It does seem like there is but when really observing, its again another narrative, something being caught up in, something added on top.


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