Seeking help getting to the exit door

[Darrell]

So in rough terms, the belief is: There must be someone/something to receive experience

Yes, that does seem to be what I'm finding when trying to really dig in and look deeply.

You can hold this in mind, and then explore: What entity or self is receiving experience?

Where is it?

I've been trying to answer that very question today. It keeps coming up as "nowhere", but I'm still looking intently. I want to be sure I'm not overlooking, being to quick, or not really digging in deeply enough. It's *extremely* subtle, so there's often this sense that something is not being seen clearly. At some point, if it keeps coming up as "nowhere" then that has to be the answer.

That would have been satisfactory, but it seemed like giving up too quickly, or not really trying.

[Bluejay]

Hi Darrell,

Remember, we are not looking for an answer that can be grasped as that would be an intellectual understanding. So it's not your job to find the answer. This has to sink in on a gut level, which is not in your 'control'.

Understanding the inquiry and the concept of self-illusion will not lead to awakening.

So what you do is this:

1. Get a sense for the feeling of something receiving experience
2. Notice where it is
3. Explore it (how, when, where, what)

Then you stay there, looking. You could do this for 3-4 times during the day for 10-15 minutes to make sure you stay focused and fresh.

If no shift happens, that's not a problem. You just keep looking.

The looking is what is important.

[Darrell]

Not to split hairs, but by receiving, we could also say having the experience, correct?

This was what I needed to hear and be reminded of. when doing this, doing it for ten to fifteen minutes is tricky, because that feeling of someone having the experience, it dissipates pretty quickly. Unless you mean that I just stay with whatever is there for that period of time.

Frequently it is very clear there's no one having the experience. I mention that in case that can be worked with in that ten to fifteen minute period of time.

[Darrell]

I am having some difficulty. I really do not believe I'm getting conceptual or intellectual, this is a sincere question, it's unclear how to handle what is happening when following your instructions, I'm hoping you can give me some advice.

So this specific sense of some sort of self or entity receiving experience - when that sense is there, it's because the attention has turned inward or back on the being, there are mental pictures and the eye's focus softens, so what's being seen by them is blurred and the focus is on the mental images. As soon as it's noticed this has happened, and I go to notice where it is and explore, it sort of breaks the spell. Not sure what to do, because exploring what just happened is no longer what's happening right now.

[Bluejay]

Yes, receiving and having are both referring to a self.

When you are exploring mental images, you are not exploring experience but thoughts. Mental images are imagined, not experience.

Where is the entity that sees, hears, feels touch, smells and tastes something?

[Darrell]

Okay, I asked about that, as it has been a component in what frequently creates the illusion of a self, so the attention tries to go there.

So just keep the focus on the entity that all this is pointing to, or that which is taken as having/receiving that thought in the form of mental images? Always, always, always keep looking at or for that thing that any thought, sound, feeling, etc, refers back to, do not get distracted sensory input, correct? When thoughts, mental images show up, don't look at those, look for the being/entity that is assumed to be receiving them? Have I got it right?

Then in the looking for that entity/being, just stay with that for as long as possible?

If the mind wanders, as with meditation, just bring it right back to trying to find where that entity is?

[Bluejay]

Exactly. Stay laser-focused on the self-illusion. If the mind wanders, bring it back.

Sensory input would be hearing, feeling, seeing, smelling and tasting, so those are fine. Just don't get involved in thought. We want to stay in actual and direct experience.

[Darrell]

When looking for what is receiving experience, and setting aside the attention turned inwards, mental images, softening of focus, that thing receiving it is nothing. There's nothing there, nothing there to explore. So stay focused on that emptiness?

That's not sarcasm or a joke, that's a sincere question.

[Darrell]

Update/Report

Spent over an hour working with this earlier. If there wasn't a sense of some entity, then inquiry was set aside. When a sense of some being or entity receiving/having experience appeared, I followed your instructions, and explored pretty relentlessly. After some time, it became clear that there is this 'looker' who claims seeing, the movement of the eyes, the intention to move the eyes to itself, and consequently experience in general. Exploring this, it was seen that this claiming actually follows very closely on the heels of the movement of the eyes, and the assumed intention to move the eyes, to look and see things. First there is the movement of the eyes, then the intention to move the eyes, the sense of someone making it happen all happen a split second after the eyes actually move. This wasn't/isn't intellectual, this was all seen/experienced in real time, as it happened.

So continuing to explore this 'looker' led to something else. The details are sort of unclear, there's a weird amnesia almost around this, in spite of making it a point to recall everything that happened. But at one point it was seen that there is someone who in looking wants to wake up. But who? It was clear there wasn't anyone. Then the old bit about there not being anyone who can wake up came to mind. Somehow this made it all perfectly clear. It was all very quiet, no fireworks, no big "aha" moment. In see that there wasn't anyone, a looker, someone who can wake up, there was a sense of relief, and I cried for a moment.

With this came a sense of things becoming more expansive, and a sense of relaxation. From that place, I resumed looking for a sense of someone. There wasn't, and hasn't been the sense of an entity or someone as there had been before, but there was a sense that there are much more subtle manifestations of how a sense of an entity can show up. I'm still looking, but so far no luck. But then it took a while to find this 'looker'.

I had arrived back home later, and usually there are things that would be done out of habit, things that I enjoy doing. It all seemed really uninteresting. So I just sat on the couch with my dog until my wife arrived home later. I'm not saying or making any claims as to what this might be. I haven't even wanted to talk about it. That was already clear earlier as I was driving home (I had a long drive to and from for an errand). Who wants to talk about it? Why?

Something else interesting is experience feels subtly different. Whether it was the air conditioning in the car hitting my body, or some strong unpleasant emotions around a really unhappy turn of events regarding a situation with our daughter. It just doesn't have the 'hit' or intensity it normally would. There's not any drive to do anything still, although household stuff seems to just happen automatically. Experience doesn't seem to be "mine" in the same way it normally would. But there's still this idea that there's more subtle stuff that hasn't been seen. So I'm just reporting, there's not any expectation. Whatever happened, happened, but there's not any willingness to put a label on it.

I'll leave it there for now.

[Darrell]

My wife said I should mention this, so one more thing.

The drive or ability to do mundane things, such as clean house, etc, are done without a problem. Personal interest activities, such as playing guitar, watch videos on YouTube (with the exception of things related to liberation) just don't hold any interest. I'm not saying I think it's permanent, but it is what I'm experiencing right now.

Then there's that thing again, where first person pronouns feel awkward, like telling a lie.

[Bluejay]

Darrell,

This all sounds wonderful.

I would highly recommend you let things settle now. Stop all inquiry. Don't even try to look. Just live life and let me know how life is going in a few days or a week (whenever you feel like sharing).

Treat this as sacred. Keep your hands off! 🙂

[Darrell]

Okay, I'll do as you suggest. It's sort of hard not to inquire, as there's this nagging sense there's something at least a bit more subtle lurking. That was what came through as I was making my way home in the car, after that moment of insight happened. While looking/seeing doesn't have that ownership sense with it, as well as expereince in general, it seems like there are moments where it seems like there's a more subtle, or less dense sense of someone. I suppose that is as it should be, with seven more fetters in place.

Should I stay away from all LU videos, talks and those by others regarding liberation as well?

Is this sort of thing usually this subtle? I ask because of the experience I had in 2014 that set all this rolling, which was so overwhelming and profound, yet the last year, all moments of insight have been subtle, or "quiet". I assume it's totally unrealistic, based on what I've heard or have been told, that reactions, likes and dislikes are still going to be as they were.

[Bluejay]

Should I stay away from all LU videos, talks and those by others regarding liberation as well?

Yes, just take a break from everything for a while and just enjoy life. Even if there's more to explore on the self-illusion, taking a break can be very beneficial for further inquiry.

👍

Is this sort of thing usually this subtle? I ask because of the experience I had in 2014 that set all this rolling, which was so overwhelming and profound, yet the last year, all moments of insight have been subtle, or "quiet".

It's different for everyone, but as you keep going it tends to get more and more subtle.

[Darrell]

Okay, even thinking about it is being set aside. I was sent something from someone, no idea who, with LU, when the answers to the questions were approved as having "passed through the gate". I set that aside and found it when I wasn't looking for it yesterday. It doesn't have a title, it just begins with "Don't panic." which didn't happen, wasn't even a concern. But in this piece, something is said about allowing negative or unpleasant feelings to come up, and find the beliefs behind them. That has been fruitful.

alright, I'm taking a break from all of it, but it's impossible to *not* notice how disengaged I am from things that normally would be upsetting or troubling. How there's this subtle distance, and the subtle ownership of experience really is not there any more. Yet there are still reactions, but they are seen so clearly, and it's interesting that they are happening "Oh, he's annoyed with the dogs barking. Curious" that sort of thing. Yet things feel subtly but noticably lighter. I tried playing guitar, and it was weird, because no one was doing it. That's not the weird part. The weird part is how there wasn't any of the old enjoyment or satisfaction, because "I" wasn't the one doing it. Yet there's still have a profound love and and affection for my dog.

The last two days have been an interesting learning experience as many things are not the same, and yet so many others are.

Inquiry is set aside, but it's impossible to not notice how things just happen, or how some times, it's just a voice talking, hands moving, but it's not "mine". Just an observer of the activity of this body.

I'll get in touch in a few days or so. I wager I'll know when it's time without having to think about it.

[Bluejay]

Thanks for sharing, Darrell!

This all sounds excellent. 👍 👍

Sometimes I skip through the POK 10 fetters meeting recordings and I happened to see you there. You mentioned that you mainly work with Todd. I've found that working with multiple guides doesn't work, and Christiane has had the same experience (she has been helping me guide you all this time).

So this feels like a good place to end our conversation. You could discuss further questions with Todd.

Does this sound good to you?