"I don't want to be a person anymore"

[Ramgis]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I'd say it's mostly deconstructing false beliefs about this reality with a "me" in it, to reveal only what is true in the end = The realization that there is no self.
So far I've read and watched a bunch of stuff and had some "aha" moments through inquiry but other than that I still don't know what this will all look like when it's "done".

What are you looking for at LU? I just came here because it feels right and scary at the same time so it's a bit like an act of courage to reveal whatever is going on in reality/me, including all the bullshit that I am unable to see by myself, and hopefully being pointed in the right direction.

I am currently at a point in my life situation where I am almost completely isolated from all social activity, no occupation and don't have any meaningful relationships going on right now, which I attribute to this tendency of self-identification which I suffer from almost all my life now, manifesting itself in various degrees and forms of what I would label "social anxiety".
It's been a reoccuring theme in this lifetime, to "fight" against my insecurities and self-improve, exposing myself to social situations to become good at it and conquer my fears.
At this point many people would probably consider me confident and outgoing if they have the luck of a rare encounter with me at all, but the truth is that I can't keep this up for very long, always feeling like I am playing a character battling against his "inner demons" until I get really exhausted and hide myself from the world again.

Ultimately, this all led me to this whole awakening stuff.

I sense that the "veil" of what I previously considered as "true" took a bit of a hit now that I had a bit of insight and now I seem to not be able to stop this process because I can't believe in most of the stuff going on in the world(my mind perception of it, to be more precise) anymore.
It's like the only thing that truly matters now because whatever I try to do, everything keeps pointing back to this "core issue" of "self-identification" again and again and again.
Right now it feels like everyday a little piece is falling off of the mechanism that held everything in place and I seem to be touching the "barrier of fear" every now and then.
I am also aware that there is the possibilty that I might just be falling into the trap of changing one set of beliefs for another.
The surest way to know is to work with someone who crossed the gate before me I think. That's why I am here.

Making it short: I think I could use some help to get this thing done once and for all, so I can just move on with my life, however that may look like then. Gotta make that first step though.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? As of now, I almost finished reading the Gateless Gatecrashers Book and although I understand most of it conceptually with little experiental glimpses here and there, I am not sure this is going to be enough for me in order to "pass the gate".
The Conversations seemed very intriguing and I think the individual & brutally honest approach is the most promising and helpful way to go about this.
I absolutely love the simplicity and directness of it.
I resonate a lot with Elena, whenever she takes out her "Zen Stick". haha.
I expect nothing but a natural unfolding of an authentic conversation that is to the benefit of both participants. The passing of the gate for one and the deepening of the realization for the other.
Maybe a new friend? I wouldn't mind.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Been reading some Eckhart Tolle - Power of Now about 8 years ago for the first time but didn't get too much into this spiritual seeking process until about 2-3 years ago. (I am 30 now) I don't have any scheduled spiritual practices but I enjoy cutting out all distractions for a while and just observe what is going on in the present moment, especially when I feel some kind of heavy emotion in my body.

I've mostly been consuming Law of Attraction/Create your own reality/New Age/Abraham Hicks Books and Videos which kinda seemed to work for me at least a bit in that I could guide myself out of depression into higher states of emotion although it took a lot of effort and never seemed to be a permanent solution. I still practiced some of that stuff up until few weeks ago.
But then I participated in an online retreat last week with Angelo Dillulo (Simply Always Awake is his Youtube Channel) where I truly catched some fire for this awakening process for the first time and dropped the whole "managing my thoughts/beliefs" thing completely. I think that came with the realization that not the contents of my mind is the issue but the identifying itself.
Trough direct pointing, inquiry and guided meditation I've been able to process a lot of repressed emotions in the body and got a clearer view on what reality seems to be like without the veil of a self.
I think I experienced short glimpses of what I would describe as "getting a taste" of what one would call a non-dual awakening but I am clearly not there yet.
I've also been reading about the 10 fetters and just checked out a bit of Jed McKenna's Work.
Other than that I feel repulsed by most spiritual & religious stuff and feel great discomfort about adopting more concepts & beliefs about what the world and all existence is supposed to be like.
In the end I don't really care about the model being used, I just care about the result.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[indranet]

Hi, my name is J.P

I would be honored to walk with you on this journey.

What do like to be called?

Please watch the following video.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660


Tell me some more about the "barrier of fear"

warmly,
J.P

[Ramgis]

Hello J.P,

I didn't expect such a quick response so I am happy to hear from you. Thank you for this opportunity to get this thing done.

We can use "my real" short name: Siggi.

Tell me some more about the "barrier of fear"

I'll try to describe it as good as possible with some extra detail from real-life experience:

Right now, I don't feel it so directly, I am rather at some level of unease that drives me toward escapism behaviour like watching youtube videos and playing videogames.
It takes some effort to keep myself disciplined to go trough with this process.
I guess that I subconsciously try to avoid this topic altogether the closer I get, like a recoil of some sort.
Last Time I got closer to this "fear barrier" I tried to check in with it deeper and I just remember that I got this sensation and a clear message that said "I am afraid to lose myself".

Another way this expresses itself is in the goal and simultaneous aversion towards "entering the flow" which I did experience in the past, mostly through jobs as a promoter or socializing a lot which got me "out of my head" and into the flow so to speak.
When I managed to get there I remember things went smooth and easy and I had some of the most beautiful experiences in this life, but soon after the "selfing mechanism" got even stronger afterwards and I wouldn't be able to keep it up.

It's actually quite paradoxical because there is an understanding that for me to have any real success in life, I'd have to give up control and stop attaching experience to an imaginary "I".
But that itself feels like an idea of the self, so it knows that it somewhat has to go away in order to get what it wants.
But it's afraid to do so, so it's a constant limbo of "I gotta wake up because I want to fulfill my desires" to "But I can't do this because then I'm not there anymore to enjoy it" and thus the struggle remains and I completely procrastinate on everything I planned to do because I get exhausted from being constantly pushed and pulled into 2 opposing directions.
Oh and a big one is also that if I actually succeed by awakening is that I don't want the things that I currently want anymore and become a celibate and broke monk of some sort haha. (Which I almost am at this point lol)

I can trigger some level of anxiety by going outside and being around people and it gets more intense if I don't look my best and especially when I see a beautiful girl that I'd like to talk to.
My approach would be to constantly expose myself to these social situations in order to bring "the devil out" so I can observe it better.
I've actually done this for several periods of time in my life and it always got to this point of initial enthusiasm and success in terms of positive responses by other people but then leading to the darkest days of my life and complete isolation because my mind would completely fuck me over.

I feel like sharing this with you so you might have a better view over everything that's happening over here right now, but let me know if it's getting too much or I am straying off too much from the path.

Thanks again for guiding me J.P.

[indranet]

Siggi,
I get the picture, you remind me of a younger version of myself.

As you sit reading this I want you to observe the stream of thoughts and feelings that arise. Are those thoughts and feelings "You"?

Can you control what your next thought is going to be?

Can you control how long the thoughts remain or when they leave?

Who is watching the thought stream?

J.P

[Ramgis]

J.P.,
Interesting, that's kinda nice to hear.

As you sit reading this I want you to observe the stream of thoughts and feelings that arise. Are those thoughts and feelings "You"?

My first impulse is to say "no". These thoughts and feelings are not "me". They rather feel like the are "about me" or they come "from me".
Often it's like im deeply locked in with the thoughts and emotions making it appear as if that's whats actually happening.
It feels real even though I know that's not really the case but it's very easy to forget.
They seem to have an effect on my being and they can easily have an effect on my body and behaviour.
The best example is when there are thoughts about a desired sexual situation I can feel arousal and the urge to masturbate or seek out a partner follows.
Or when I think of wanting something then a comment comes about a perceived social status that causes feelings of insecurity and the urge to escape or other forms of compensation arises.
So there is a direct effect happening which makes it look like I am somewhat controlled by these thoughts and so it seems like there is at least a relationship between "me" and "my thoughts and emotions".
But are these thoughts and emotions "me"? I wanna give the right answer and say "no because there is no me to begin with", but currently the direct experience kinda says otherwise. I am not sure.

Can you control what your next thought is going to be?

So here is the thing. I don't have a toolset to create a thought or precisely make any thought appear the way I want, I can't practically use a magic word to make a thought appear like using my hand to pick up an object, the mechanism of thinking isn't in my control, it just happens on its own so the obvious answer would be "no".
But it seems like I can at least have an influence on what "theme" of thoughts will appear.
If I speak the words "coca cola" for example my mind will predictably create images of whatever it associates with it, in my case it's the mentioned soda, then there are thoughts about my past when I bought one in school and was delighted because it was a sweet and cool drink on a hot day and then my mind monkeybranches to the next associated thought and the next and so on.
So it seems like I can guide my thoughts towards something.
Other than that thoughts are completely random and yet they are often repetitive about the same topcis, usually those that I give the most importance or they appear in direct response to what is happening right now in reality through whatever is perceived with the senses, so it seems like it is definitely predictable and it makes "sense" to some degree.

Can you control how long the thoughts remain or when they leave?

I guess the ego wants to say "Hold my beer, I can do it" but again there is no switch that I can press that instantly turns the thought on or off, It feels like I can hold on to them for a while if I really focus but then things get messy and I suddenly forget when the thought appeared or disappeared.
So no, not really. It still seems like I can have an influence on keeping them in mind for a bit longer.

Who is watching the thought stream?

Nobody is watching the thought stream, it's just appearing and thoughts are just there. They are too close in a way that makes it feel like they are part of direct experience like breathing or the heart beating. I wanted to compare it to seeing but I guess there is also nobody there that is seeing objects, no one who does the breathing or the heartbeating.

I can already notice an effect happening here as I continously pose these inquiries.
Relief and emotional reactions happening.
I just catched a thought where what was perceived as "I" was making a decision to play videogames and the body wanted to get in motion but it was clear that this was just happening in thought and so it kinda seemed illusory at the same time.
And then the worry follows "Well, If I don't make these decisions what's gonna happen then?". I guess there is no answer to that and it felt a bit frustrating.

[indranet]

Sigi,

Nobody is watching the thought stream, it's just appearing and thoughts are just there. They are too close in a way that makes it feel like they are part of direct experience like breathing or the heart beating.

Yes, they are part of our direct experience, but we entangle them with our sense of "Me" and then they tend to dominate our attention.

Can you allow your attention to expand and include the space around the thoughts? Can you allow the thoughts to be neutral like clouds in the sky. Be more interested in the space in which the thoughts appear. This is easier to do if you are sitting quietly or outside in nature.

J.P

[Ramgis]

I've just deliberately sat down for 40 min to go deeper into this investigation. I noticed the agitating nature of the mind and didn't resist it, instead I encouraged it even more so to give me every "Negative" thought it has while I was just being with the emotion that came up. This felt relieving and I feel more clear in the head now.
I then tried to do as you say. My experience is that I can't intellectually comprehend what you mean with the "space", I cannot grasp this with the mind, I can't use my eyesight to see it, I guess its just there but I can't really sense it.

[indranet]

Siggi,

Ok, this is a more structured version of the exercise to try.

Finding the Gap
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.
1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.
6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.
Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.
This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and Observing the short gap between them. Noticing how the current thought is passing. And waiting for the next thought to come.
Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

J.P

[Ramgis]

Thank you J.P.

I will try this and report back to you soon.

Siggi

[Ramgis]

J.P.,

I think I have a better feel now for the gap. Whenever I focus on thought appearing and dissolving, what tends to happen is that there is a natural "returning" to the present moment, usually indicated by a shift from a blurry eyesight to being clear and aware of whats in front of me. When my eyes are closed its that sensation where I am looking at the inside of my eyelids.

I also noticed whenever I get entangled in a mind-story it can go on for a very long time but as soon as I focus on the thought and wait it actually dissolves pretty easily.
Sometimes there is an attachment to the thoughtstream which then feels uncomfortable to let go of as in like "Nooo, I want to keep dreaming".
It also feels like the thoughts are there to try to lure me back in thought. Happens almost automatically all of the time.
There is also some mindfuck going on where there is thought trying to mimic the dissolving of thought itself, but its only in imagination = thought within thought.
So I notice the tendency for thought trying to put any practice in yet another conceptual construct. It's a bit frustrating to be honest.

What do I do next?

Siggi

[indranet]

Siggi,

I also noticed whenever I get entangled in a mind-story it can go on for a very long time

Yes, this is normal, once you realize that this is happening you are already free of it. you do not need to focus on anything to dissolve it. If you pay attention, you will find that you cycle between the lost in thought state and the observer state.

Just pay attention to what is happening without attempting to change anything.

J.P

[Ramgis]

J.P.

You are not really talking to Siggi and this is not really happening. There is nothing happening outside of thought.
Doesn't feel like anything really changed, but is it what I think it is, just this?
Really not sure right now.

[indranet]

Siggi,

You are not really talking to Siggi and this is not really happening. There is nothing happening outside of thought

Can you give me some context, how did you come to this statement?

Doesn't feel like anything really changed, but is it what I think it is, just this?

Can you expand on this?

J.P

[Ramgis]

J.P.

Can you give me some context, how did you come to this statement?

I dont really know what exactly I just did, I've just been reading Jed McKenna and got inspired to continously write down statements and questions inquiring into whatever it is thats going on right now within the notion of "Think for yourself and keep asking what is true until you know" and I really got into the flow of it, I kept writing and asking myself the wildest stuff completely unfiltered and questioning every thought that came up, tracing it back to its source and then I just had this urge to write to you this statement which came kinda out of nowhere. It felt more intuitive, not really coming from "me".
I still sense the message behind this statement, I guess it basically means that the idea of something "Happening" is still a conceptual understanding confined within whatever you wanna call this dreamstate, self, siggi, me or whatever is. It's hard to say though because it can't really be shown or pointed to, it's probably only revealed by seeing what it is not.

Can you expand on this?

I think for a moment there was a very subtle shift, everything remained the way it is, nothing changed, I saw the same objects and problems going on but it felt a bit more detached from it all. And then it came to me like "Oh, wait this is it? Is this what they mean with awakening?" Then doubt came up like "No, this can't be it, that's like nothing" or such. Then I thought "what if I just shifted to another belief simply stating that now I am awake but im actually still asleep?"...stuff like this and here we go I guess Siggi is back. Got trapped again then by some idea of "Well now that I am awake i can just enjoy doing whatever" and then I just fried my brain with many hours of playing videogames.

[indranet]

Siggi,

this statement which came kinda out of nowhere. It felt more intuitive, not really coming from "me".

I like this, the conscious mind is never going to be complicit in its own downfall. It can only deal in what is known.
liberation can only come from embracing the unknown.

I saw the same objects and problems going on but it felt a bit more detached from it all.

Yes exactly, this is the dawning of non-identification. I like your method of inquiry, keep going.

Don't be put off by the doubt and resistance. The mind is just a machine fighting for its life.

Accept everything and avoid nothing.


J.P