Help me see the absence of separate self

[ty0]

Yes I know it's a thought. But I believe it. I don't understand what "believing" is made out of, some thoughts seem just truer than other.

You can't understand what believing is made out of. What can be used to understand that? Thought? There's nothing for you to understand here. Can you even understand anything? Or is there just a sense of understanding? And is that sense of understanding not a thought?

"When there is no thoughts what if the thinker is just silent for a moment ?" (thought)

If you were blind, would there be a see-er who is just not seeing? What is the thinker? Can you observe the thinker with your 5 senses? Or does the thinker only exist when you think of the thinker?

My mind is saying : "Safety is feeling no challenging, unpleasant or tough feelings. Only peace." And a thought answers "that is called being dead".
The sense of being does not seem to change but it is not here when I sleep and I can't say it will be here after the body dies. So maybe it does change.

Well, it's impossible to not feel any unpleasant feelings unless you're dead, yes. Where is the sense of being? How are you observing the sense of being? Who is the one observing the sense of being?

Like I said above : the gaps between thoughts, sensations, and the five senses.

What is the gap between thoughts? Is it a "thing"? Is the hole in a donut a "thing" that is there? Or is it just a lack of something? During the gaps between thoughts, what is there? Is there anything there that is not the 5 senses?

I don't know. I cannot find something that is aware. There is awareness but I can't find its center or essence, I cannot look directly at it. It seems to be linked to the objects that I am aware of. I don't know such a thing as "pure awareness without content".

Why do you say there is awareness even though you can't look directly at it? Let's make the (artificial) distinction between thoughts and direct experience (DE). DE is your five senses and thought is everything else.
When you look at your hand, there is the DE of the image of your hand without any labelling. On top of that, you have thoughts recognising the shape as a hand, "that's MY hand", "there's awareness of my hand", "I exist", "I'm separate from the hand". Even if these thoughts aren't explicitly verbalised in your mind, they're still there. People call these perceptual overlays. But before you even recognise that it's a hand, all you have is some colours and shapes.

Let's make this simple. Your practice will now consist of 2 things:
1) Emotion work. This is not so much a practice as it is just a healthier way to live life. When you feel strong emotion, just FEEL it. Don't avoid it. Don't inquire into it. Don't do anything. Anything you do WILL distract you from it. If you want to inquire into it, wait for it to calm down before you do.
2) DE Inquiry. First, use meditation to quiet the mind. Then, inquire: "What is here that is not a thought?" Then, LOOK. If thoughts arise, note that those are just thoughts, don't judge them or yourself. Then, return to the question. If you find yourself judging, note that the judging itself is just more thought. Then, return to the question. LOOK in the gap. As soon as you notice that there is a gap, note that EVEN THAT is another thought. Go back and back and back again. "What is here that is not a thought?" Look and see, man.

Whatever else you wanna do, treat it as extra. Don't complicate things. Stay consistent with this for at least a couple weeks. If you have doubts about the practice, notice that it is just a thought. If you feel that you're never gonna gain clarity, notice that it is just a thought. If you feel helpless and frustrated, JUST FEEL IT. That's all. Try this and get back to me.

[Marceldesti]

If thoughts arise, note that those are just thoughts,

When I note, should I label it ? A thought arise and I label it as "thought" ? Because this would be another thought.

As soon as you notice that there is a gap, note that EVEN THAT is another thought.

How could the gap between thought be a thought ? I don't get it. The label "gap" is a thought yes. But the gap itself ?

If you were blind, would there be a see-er who is just not seeing?

No. But if I am the see-er and I close my eyes for a second I don't see.

What is the thinker? Can you observe the thinker with your 5 senses? Or does the thinker only exist when you think of the thinker?

No I can't. The thinker seems no different from thoughts. And a thought alone doesn't "think". But thoughts speaks with "I", it creates the sense of identity.
There is doubt thoughts while writing this.

Where is the sense of being? How are you observing the sense of being? Who is the one observing the sense of being?

It seems to be only reflected by objects of consciousness. Because I am aware of my sensations, sounds etc. I feel that I exist.
I don't know who is observing.

What is the gap between thoughts? Is it a "thing"? Is the hole in a donut a "thing" that is there? Or is it just a lack of something? During the gaps between thoughts, what is there? Is there anything there that is not the 5 senses?

No it is not a thing. During the gap there is just silence, it seems there is nothing, and then my attention goes to another sense.

Why do you say there is awareness even though you can't look directly at it?

Because I KNOW that there is something, that is the only thing that I know for certain. Something/somebody/"I" know that there is something.

When you look at your hand, there is the DE of the image of your hand without any labelling. On top of that, you have thoughts recognising the shape as a hand, "that's MY hand", "there's awareness of my hand", "I exist", "I'm separate from the hand". Even if these thoughts aren't explicitly verbalised in your mind, they're still there. People call these perceptual overlays.

Yes I can see that. There are also visual images (thoughts) that often "go under the radar".

Thank you for your help Tyler.

[Marceldesti]

I have a very strong belief that "I am a collection of thoughts, feelings and sensations"

"What is here that is not a thought?"

I can only find the five senses. I know it is also a thought but everything I say is a thought.

[ty0]

When I note, should I label it ? A thought arise and I label it as "thought" ? Because this would be another thought.

You can label it if you want, but be aware that labelling it is a thought.

How could the gap between thought be a thought ? I don't get it. The label "gap" is a thought yes. But the gap itself ?

The gap itself isn't a thought. When you notice the gap, the noticing that "there was a gap" is a thought.

No. But if I am the see-er and I close my eyes for a second I don't see.

Are you sure you don't see? What about all the morphing patterns and shapes behind your eyelids? Close your eyes and look.

It seems to be only reflected by objects of consciousness. Because I am aware of my sensations, sounds etc. I feel that I exist.

How do you know you are aware? Can you know that without thinking about it?

Because I KNOW that there is something, that is the only thing that I know for certain. Something/somebody/"I" know that there is something.

How do you know? Can you prove it? And IF there is something, why do you assume it to be awareness?

I can only find the five senses. I know it is also a thought but everything I say is a thought.

Good. Yep, if you're in the gap and you feel like "you can only find the 5 senses", note that it is a thought and continue. Stay here, keep going.

[Marceldesti]

The gap itself isn't a thought. When you notice the gap, the noticing that "there was a gap" is a thought.

Ok I am reassured, because otherwise I would have been totally lost with what you were saying.

Are you sure you don't see? What about all the morphing patterns and shapes behind your eyelids? Close your eyes and look.

Yes I see that. That was a way of saying that the thinker could be silent for a second and start talking again.
But it seems that the thinker is an illusion created by the succession of thoughts. Like the illusion of movement of a movie is created by the succession of images.

How do you know you are aware? Can you know that without thinking about it?

It would be more accurate to say that there is awareness because I don't know exactly who is aware and if it is a "someone". Maybe awareness is not different from the object it is aware BUT I KNOW there is awareness. There is something, I cannot prove it to you but I am absolutely sure ! And yes I can know this without thinking about it.

How do you know? Can you prove it? And IF there is something, why do you assume it to be awareness?

Same answer as above. Awareness is just a word that means "I know" or "there is knowing". I don't know how it "works", so I don't know "how I know" but I know for sure.

[ty0]

Maybe awareness is not different from the object it is aware BUT I KNOW there is awareness. There is something, I cannot prove it to you but I am absolutely sure !

Ok, you're sure of something but you can't prove it to me. You can't prove it to yourself either but you're absolutely sure that it doesn't even need proving.

Awareness is just a word that means "I know" or "there is knowing". I don't know how it "works", so I don't know "how I know" but I know for sure.

How is "knowing" different from "believing you know"? I'm sure you're aware of how some beliefs are so strong that they absolutely feel like reality and not like beliefs at all, but they start to weaken when you inspect them closely.

I'm not telling you that what you're sure of is wrong, but I encourage you to treat the opposite of that as a possibility. Don't take it for reality before you have cold hard proof. You can go investigate with the hypothesis "there is awareness" or "there is knowing" and try to prove your hypothesis right.

I encourage you to continue with the DE inquiry as much as possible. Carry on and the gap will get longer and longer. You will start to notice thought much more quickly and with that you will start to realise how much of your experience is just arbitrary thought. There are amazingly fascinating things to discover here once your mind's vigilance is sufficiently honed to detect even the most subtle thoughts. ALLEZ!

[Marceldesti]

Ok, you're sure of something but you can't prove it to me. You can't prove it to yourself either but you're absolutely sure that it doesn't even need proving.

It doesn't need proving exactly.
It's the most obvious thing. And I really wonder why you're trying to make me reconsider this.

I'm not telling you that what you're sure of is wrong, but I encourage you to treat the opposite of that as a possibility.

I really don't get it. I don't see how the opposite could be real. How "there is something" could be wrong. I really don't get it.

I encourage you to continue with the DE inquiry as much as possible. Carry on and the gap will get longer and longer. You will start to notice thought much more quickly and with that you will start to realise how much of your experience is just arbitrary thought. There are amazingly fascinating things to discover here once your mind's vigilance is sufficiently honed to detect even the most subtle thoughts. ALLEZ!

Ok
I'm quite discouraged because I feel like I have been doing this for years... But I will try again.

[Marceldesti]

How is "knowing" different from "believing you know"?

Because believing is about thoughts and concepts. Here the knowing I'm talking about is not conceptual.

[ty0]

Ok, the statement for inquiry here is "there is awareness/there is knowing", not "there is something", which is another deeper thing.

Because believing is about thoughts and concepts. Here the knowing I'm talking about is not conceptual

How do you know that the knowing you're talking about is not conceptual?

Do you feel like I'm asking you shitty nonsense questions? Do you feel frustration when I ask you to reconsider this? Do you feel confusion and maybe even irritation? These would be good signs to tell you there's something to look at here. Where's the last place you would look? Here, no?

When you tell me it's so obvious and doesn't need proving, you sound like a devout christian preaching to me about God.

I'm not saying the opposite is real. I'm also not saying that you're wrong. You're here feeling frustrated because you don't know what to do to see clearly. You don't know what could be the barrier because you've looked EVERYWHERE and you can't seem to find the problem or an answer.

Now I'm telling you to look at something and your mind's immediate reaction is "No no no, it's not this. Everything else is bullshit, but this is totally real. Let's look elsewhere, this isn't worth questioning." Doesn't it seem like your mind doesn't want to look here? Why don't you want to look here?

What makes you so sure of something that you don't have proof for? So absolutely sure that you believe it doesn't need proving. You tell me it doesn't need proving like this is an obvious fact but I don't see how this is obvious at all...

[Marceldesti]

Ok, the statement for inquiry here is "there is awareness/there is knowing", not "there is something", which is another deeper thing.

I don't see the difference between "there is something" and "there is knowing". To say that "there is something" something must know it.

Do you feel like I'm asking you shitty nonsense questions? Do you feel frustration when I ask you to reconsider this? Do you feel confusion and maybe even irritation? These would be good signs to tell you there's something to look at here. Where's the last place you would look? Here, no?

Yes I feel frustration and despair. I don't understand where this is going. I feel dispair because I can't forget what I saw a few days earlier and I feel stuck again in a loop.
You asked me "what if this clarity doesn't come back ever again ?", well if this is what's going to happen, I might as well end this now. I don't want to feel miserable the rest of my life. I don't want to live in an illusion. I don't want to be safe and secure in this illusion. I want truth. I want peace. I feel so ashamed and like an idiot to have come so close and to seem to have "lost it". I see all these f****** thoughts. I can't fight them. I can't be free from them. I don't want to practice inquiry or meditation for the rest of my life. I am exhausted of seeking.

Doesn't it seem like your mind doesn't want to look here? Why don't you want to look here?

What makes you so sure of something that you don't have proof for? So absolutely sure that you believe it doesn't need proving. You tell me it doesn't need proving like this is an obvious fact but I don't see how this is obvious at all...

I am so sure because everytime I look, there is something ! It's right in front of my face, it's here. Everytime I question it I have the proof : there is something. I see the sky, I see my bedroom, I hear the cars. It's now, it's here, I don't know how to say it better... The proof is not logical or conceptual, it is here, always. And don't tell me it's not obvious to you that there is something.

[ty0]

To say that "there is something" something must know it.

This is a HUGE assumption. I'll say ok, let's agree that there are appearances. There are sounds and sights and whatever appearing in your experience.
But what part of that direct experience tells you that there's something separate from it knowing it? What tells you that there's awareness observing everything? What you wrote just looks like a big fat belief to me 😂

Yes I feel frustration and despair. I don't understand where this is going.

This is good! Feel the despair bro! Despair is a pretty rare feeling! This isn't going anywhere! You're just running in circles!

I feel dispair because I can't forget what I saw a few days earlier and I feel stuck again in a loop.

Who's stuck in a loop?? You didn't see anything a few days earlier! How do you even know anything about what happened yesterday? All you have is memories of the past, and are those not thought?
What the fuck is the past except a thought? Can you go there? Whatever you thought you saw is just that! A thought that you experience NOW!

Who doesn't want to be miserable? Who wants truth? Who wants peace? If you feel like an idiot, then feel like an idiot. You're an idiot! What's that? A thought? Who feels like an idiot? Who sees all these fucking thoughts? Who can't fight or be free of them?

You don't wanna practise meditation and inquiry? Don't fucking do it! Go paraglide! Go hike! Go drink wine and have sex until you die! Stop seeking if you're exhausted man, just have a cigarette or something.

Whatever, I'm gonna talk about "there is something". How do you know? No man, it's not obvious to me! It used to be obvious but I looked at it and saw it's a belief and then what the fuck now I don't know anything at all! What part of my vision tells me that there is something?? Nothing! My mind needs to interpret the senses and create a sense of things existing for that belief to hold up. I don't even believe anything that I'm writing to you now, they're just arbitrary thoughts!

I don't know anything you don't know. I haven't found any answer or peace or whatever the fuck that you haven't. In fact, I would you say you know much, much more than I do. But what is knowing?

[Marceldesti]

But what part of that direct experience tells you that there's something separate from it knowing it? What tells you that there's awareness observing everything? What you wrote just looks like a big fat belief to me 😂

I don't know if it is separate, maybe awareness and the object perceived are the same. The only thing I know is there is knowing. I don't know what knows, I usually call it awareness but we can use other words. I don't say there is a witness or a perceive (even if I feel like it). I just say there is knowing.

This is good! Feel the despair bro! Despair is a pretty rare feeling! This isn't going anywhere! You're just running in circles!

I feel it and my mind goes crazy about it.
When you say "feel it", do you also try to recognize thoughts as thought ? Because thoughts are feeding the emotion, it seems like it could never end.

[ty0]

I still don't get "there is knowing". I can't find any knowing in my experience. I don't know why you believe there is knksing. I don't know why you believe that the only thing you know is there is knowing.

When you say "feel it", do you also try to recognize thoughts as thought ? Because thoughts are feeding the emotion, it seems like it could never end.

Don't try to do do anything. Don't resist anything. If there are thoughts, don't resist the thoughts. If there are intense sensations like chest tightness or whatever, don't resist it. If you feel like crying, cry. Recognising thoughts as thoughts will happen (or not) whether you try or not. What does it even mean to DO or TRY TO DO anything? I'm not sure you're really capable of doing anything at all.

[Marceldesti]

I still don't get "there is knowing". I can't find any knowing in my experience. I don't know why you believe there is knksing. I don't know why you believe that the only thing you know is there is knowing.

Look deeper Tyler. (Joke)
Ok I don't really know how to explain it to you. Seeing is knowing, hearing is knowing, experiencing is knowing.
But it feels like you are trying to make me realize deeper stuff here, aren't you ? I just want to realize that there is no self. I want to make the "first step" so to speak. I don't understand how this investigation will help me realize this.

I am doing the inquiry "What is here that is not a thought". I don't know if I am making any progress or if I look in the right direction but I'm trying. I'll let you know if I have anything interesting to say.

[ty0]

Hahahah maybe I should go look deeper.

Ok, you're right, let's focus and zoom in on just this inquiry. When you have the doubts during inquiry like "I don't know if I'm looking in the right direction" or "I don't know why I'm doing this" or "am I doing this right?", notice that these are just thoughts and return to the gap/question