Intrigued soul

[EYG]

Hi,

I tried the practice a few times. The first time, I recorded my thoughts by voice and fell asleep in the process.
On the next try, I was interrupted by multiple offspring after 10 minutes. I'll hopefully find time today to dive in again.

The thoughts that I had started with concern about doing the practice correctly. I read the brief multiple times and was concerned about how to do the practice and how to document my thoughts. I was also concerned with how I would remember a 30-minute session and was worried I'd just fall asleep, which ended up happening on the first try.
I had thoughts regarding day-to-day tasks and challenges, and as I flowed with them, it brought distress and overwhelming feeling. At this point, I noticed my feelings and reminded myself I was in an exercise. With this notion, I felt comfortable blocking all thoughts and tried to keep my mind blank. It had a positive feeling, but I could keep it for short periods before new concerns crept in.
I assume these cycles were very short. The blank feeling I was aiming towards and reached briefly reminded me a feeling I once had afer a hyperventilation medition I had which felt very positive.

This isn't my reply for the exercise; it's just a warmup and me trying to get back to speed with the forum discussion.

Much love,

Elad

[EYG]

Connection on the forum is challenging the past few days.

It was difficult for me to "disengage" from communication methods during the day for 30 minutes, and during evenings, it was hard for me not to fall asleep during the practice. It was even challenging not to fall asleep when practicing at noon. I'll start from the end: I think I need to continue this practice since it felt like I was "all over the place." The rate of my thoughts was high and mostly centered around current responsibilities, tasks, and reviewing recent experiences and analyzing them. As I continued the practice, I went back further to past experiences.I tried a few times to stop thinking and focus my thoughts on a point in my body, but I was able to hold this for only brief periods. Going back to the questions that were supposed to guide me...

Where are they coming from and going to?

It felt my thoughts were coming from a place of concerns thats needs to be solved.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, It felt like my mind is gazing on his own.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Yes, I didn't try to control my thoughts but I noticed all my thoughts were focused on the present or past. I could have focused my thoughts to the future and by that, summen other thoughts.

Can you predict your next thought?

No, it felt like an uncontrollable ride

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

I think I can but I didn't do it and I expect it to be hard.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

I think so but it will be hard.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Not currently, I wish I'll get to a point I will.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Not in my current state.

Thanks,

Elad

[Elad]

Hi Elad,

Sorry the forum never had so many tech problems. Hopefully will get back to normal soon.

Re the exercise. It will take you more practice to just see what happens rather then try to figure out and control. So the answers were not clear. But I see a good process happening.

Spend more periods, short (2-5 min) or long (15-30 min) just looking at thought without trying to control, remember or understand. Just observe.

**Is there in fact any controller or control over which thoughts appear, how they stay and leave?**

You are answering from thinking about it, and thus your answer is just beliefs. You need to look until you see clearly and answer from seeing. You will feel it when seeing happens.

[EYG]

Hi,

I tried to connect yesterday with no luck.

I practiced and observed without trying to control my thoughts. My initial thoughts were triggered by the physical sensations I felt/heard. After a while, it felt like my body went to a different level of presence, and I wasn't responsive to the exterior circumstances anymore. At this point, my thoughts wandered to everyday experiences and concerns.

It's not clear to me how I should observe and, on the other hand, think about the questions you've previously shared with me. It seems that these questions will require me to try to control my thoughts.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

I'll continue practice.

Thanks,

Elad

[Elad]

It's good you notice it's not clear to you. Continue on with an explorative spirit and question all beliefs. I'll send you a new exercise later today.

[Elad]

Exercise:

Sit somewhere, maybe a cafe, relax. Now notice how the sight/eyes are is focusing on different things, staying focused for a while on something then moving to something else.

What is noticed about the movement. What we want are not inferences, (trying to) figuring stuff out. Just observation.

What controls the movement, can you find a self/me that controls it or chooses the movement?

[EYG]

Hi Elad,

I don't see anything that controls the movement. The more I observe it, the more I'm surprised by the rate and differents thoughts that appear to me.

Elad

[Elad]

Good, you are getting more into LOOKING rather then thinking/speculating.

Here is the next exercise for you, answer each question separately:

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

[EYG]

Hi Elad,

How is the movement controlled?

I make an effortless decision. It almost feels like the movement isn't controlled, but I'm deciding it. I processed the written exercise and decided to execute it.

Does a thought control it?

The idea of the exercise led to the decision through thorough thought, but the thought doesn't control the movement.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, It almost feels like it's without control. I guess it's due to an exercise that doesn't require effort. I assume that a movement or action that will have a significant effect will be processed and executed differently.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I don't know. I can't see it.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, I can't see it. The thought of a separate individual or anything else besides myself raises discomfort. Can we focus on this area? I'm not sure how to look into this feeling further.

Thanks,

Elad

[Elad]

Please do the exercise again. Don't speculate how past decisions and intentions (and if they are "made by a you") might effect what is happening. That is analysis and theory/belief, not just looking. Don't speculate how the structure of the exercise (the type of the choice, etc) effect the outcome. That is analysis and theory/belief, not just looking. Do it again, many times. Really aim to SEE DIRECTLY beyond thought and doubt, and answer the questions again. This is about simplicity.

[EYG]

Hi Elad,

I'm insecure about the process. I feel that there is a higher truth I should be seeing and that I haven't reached it yet. That said, I looked at some content posted here by other members and was encouraged that the process isn't about a higher truth. It's about seeing, challenging existing patterns, and being honest. I'm ready to do so.

How is the movement controlled?

I don't know.

Does a thought control it?

No, It's not a thought.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, I can't see a controller.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I don't know. I can't see it.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, I can't see it.

Thanks,

Elad

[Elad]

Hi Elad, your answers here were all very clear. Beautiful. And yes, it is very good to let go of any preconceptions of higher truth or any such thing, and just "work on"/ allow the process of seeing clearly. Things are moving very well!

I would recommend you from here not to read anything of others. And consider answering me on daily basis, or semi-daily, so we get into more of a rythm together. Both these things will probably help working through control and resistance (of which intellectualizing and position taking is often a big part). It's all part of the process.

Please continue to this exercise:


Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'Elad' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

[EYG]

Hi Elad,

It's hard for me to keep it on a daily level since I find recent discussions very challenging to understand and process. This process confronts me with strong beliefs I have been holding, helped me, and led me through the journey to this point.

1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

The simple response is no. The lengthy response is that this question confronts me with a belief I developed in which I'm the creator of my world and control almost every aspect of it. This belief served me well and It's hard for me to let this notion pass.

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

When making an everyday decision, I usually start with an exterior vision affected by what I conceive is "good looking/ tasty." I assume this vision is led by culture and geography. Afterward, I'll face constraints such as climate, availability, costs, time frame, etc. I don't see a place where an autonomous entity intervenes. These decisions are the results of response to exterior stimulations and constraints.

3. Can anything be found for which 'Elad' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

I understand where we are heading, and It's hard for me to let go.
My apologies, but let's dumb it down to an easy example.
If I want to wear a white ironed shirt but haven't washed my clothes or purchased an iron, my decision-making leads it. This option would be available with me thinking more in advance/ being more productive with my time. I can't claim that only exterior circumstances resulted in me not wearing a white shirt.

Thanks,

Elad

[Elad]

Hi Elad, thank you for the sincere and clear answers.

"The simple response is no. The lengthy response is that this question confronts me with a belief I developed in which I'm the creator of my world and control almost every aspect of it. This belief served me well and It's hard for me to let this notion pass."

Very clear here. So lets stop for a moment here and see if it feels right for you to question your beliefs more, or if you want to hold on to a belief that feels like it serves you well. I only want to support what feels right and loving for you. Maybe wright here about your mixed feelings, let all sides be heard as clearly as possible, without censoring any feelings or desires.



"My apologies, but let's dumb it down to an easy example.
If I want to wear a white ironed shirt but haven't washed my clothes or purchased an iron, my decision-making leads it. This option would be available with me thinking more in advance/ being more productive with my time. I can't claim that only exterior circumstances resulted in me not wearing a white shirt."

Right. The point here is not that only exterior circumstances have an effect. The point is to investigate if anything is truly in control or a separate self, including the thoughts, feelings, desires and percpetions that are conventionally considered to be interior. If we continue with the inquiry the next thing for you to look for is:

What controls the thoughts and feelings, the values and decisions and habits?

We are not questioning if they exist and if on a conventional level it makes sense to for example develop good habits and skills and etc. Of course. We are questioning (if we continue) if any of that is truly separated from the WHOLE that is happening by itself, due to innumerable causes and conditions, in a way that is essentially a mystery.

[EYG]

Hi Elad,

I think I'm ready to continue from where we stopped. If you are up for it?

I just read our last discussion, and maybe we should continue with me answering it again?

Thanks,

EYG