10 years of meditation & no insight

[ElliottM]

Alrighty how about 4pm my time/2pm yours on wednesday, if that works for you?

This is great stuff. I wouldn't call any aspect of experience realer because 'realness' is just another abstraction that doesn't interact with the actual experience. Are you starting to see how thought cannot interact at all with the "other stuff"? No matter what you think or believe, it doesn't alter the "other stuff", only your interpretation of them, which is then back in the layer of abstraction.

Yes! the mental picture i have of this was clarifying as here's reality underneath and here's thought on top, and I was looking for the bridge or where one contacts the other and influences it but there isn't one.. water and oil floating on top of it, they don't mix at all

You say you're coming to accept there isn't a thought-based answer, but is there such a thing as an answer not based in thought? Does the entire paradigm of there being questions and answers and problems and solutions even exist outside of the layer of thought abstraction?

Thought is a problem-solving tool, but problems are a thought creation. However, thought can also be used to solve the problem of itself which is what you're doing now. It's like a snake eating its own tail.

a question can only exist in thought, so answers must be limited to thought also. even an "answer" found in an experience is thought-ified immediately - the experience is the experience, the answer to the question is still a thought even nonverbal that says "that", and points to a memory, which is a thought. there is no problem-ness, no challenge-ness, no situation-ness even in reality, these things don't exist outside of thought. all judgement thoughts, not reality. doesn't *feel* true right now, it definitely feels like i have problems. but then "it doesn't feel true" and "i have problems" are both thoughts.

Hahahahahah. Yeah it's hilarious actually ;''''DD. "What do I do?" is a thought. It's one of the first thoughts we can have. The mind creates a problem then gives itself the job of solving it. That's the entire purpose of thought.

it keeps doing it, even nonverbally in spells of mental quiet there's a sense of "what now?". notice and let it be i suppose, enjoy the quiet while it lasts

Inquire into this: Who's asking "if not thought, then what do i do?" Where is the one who's asking that? Where does that question come from?

coincidentally (or maybe not..) i stumbled into something like this today, ill just copy it out of my notes. more poking to do here:

sitting with what is the next thought, a little sleepy so mind wandering kicks in but no big deal. end up off task and having a dreamy little back and forth with myself in thoughts playing both halves of a conversation then pause a sec - "who's asking here and who's answering?" instant fear response in the body. that feels significant, try and focus on that - too grabby maybe, it slips away. repeat the question, fear again, seems to disappear quickly when i look directly at it, slippery. not quite the "sat with it and it faded away" sorta deal, it actually feels like it's building stronger and then its being seen and hiding so that i can't look at it. warrants further playing with this question


I'll start looking into death more. Feels confronting saying that, though i'd have said as a reflex i don't fear death itself as much as i fear dying painfully, but its not total acceptance of death in any case. There's both fear and relief in there thinking about it. Since i'm still here i've implicitly answered the question as to whether suicide would be a better option thus far, but i've certainly "kept it in my back pocket" so to speak at various times in my life, it's a comfort in a way. But there's definitely fear of death in there. Fear death but fear extremes of physical pain more. But you're right, that pain's not happening right now and may never. the belief is happening, and that's its own unnecessary pain. don't think it's going to fall just like that but time to try and keep mortality front of mind and see how the fearful future thoughts look when death itself looks a little realer to me

couple of extra notes for the day
----------------------------

hah! work situation first thing in the morning, answering a question and then had a wait a sec moment, that sounds like an assumption! have we verified this before we dive into trying to work out a fix for this supposed problem :)

is there actually only one master assumption that everything specific is just a form of - "i know how it should be/should have been/will be, which is per my thoughts about it". and if the thought story is contradicted by actual experience then it must be reality that's wrong, and i take that personally

very little reactivity today, but to be fair very few interactions to test it, just quiet overall. did notice that my to-do list of minor tasks wasn't pulling me in multiple directions at once and wasn't producing a sense of urgency and stress out of proportion to the actual importance of those tasks like often happens. i'm doing this thing, and i'll get to the next thing when i get to it. which one? doesn't matter, next thing is the next thing its not important right now. not in a forced "stay focused" way just noticing that that's how it is

also noted: no real emotional fluctuations today, just pretty even-keeled and ok all day. a minor flash of irritation here and there when something comes up to deal with, but seen and gone in a moment not a mood carried around for an extended period

[ty0]

Yep that works let me send you my email through a private message.

but then "it doesn't feel true" and "i have problems" are both thoughts.

Yep. We just keep noticing and noticing

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the 2nd response I wrote to you if you have any.

"who's asking here and who's answering?" instant fear response in the body.

Could it be possible you don't fear death too much, but rather you fear not existing? Just throwing it out there.

I want you to try out the age-old self-inquiry method with this newfound clarity/skepticism/equanimity:
"Who am I?"
"Who's asking?"
"To whom are these thoughts even occurring right now?"
"Who's the one aware of these thoughts?"
"Who thought that thought just now?"
"Or that one?"
That's a little sample of how it could go.
It's basically just "Who am I?" but you keep going further and further back like a Russian doll. When you have a wandering thought, don't just notice it, but also ask where it came from, who asked it, where's the one who asked it etc.
Basically, get to the bottom of this mystery.

[ElliottM]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the 2nd response I wrote to you if you have any.

'Then why am I here? What's the point in all this?'
No problem, no purpose. That can be terrifying.
'Everything I think is utterly meaningless and is just a game the mind plays with itself... Then what's my role? What's my job? There's nothing to think. There's nothing to fix. There's nothing to do. Give me a job! Give me something to do!!! If I don't serve a purpose, why should I even be? Who am I without my purpose? Can I even BE without purpose?'

this is an odd one, because right now the whole thought train seems to terminate (or maybe just slow all the way down to a crawl) at "Everything I think is utterly meaningless and is just a game the mind plays with itself"... and it just tapers off into a quiet hum there.. the rest of those questions don't really arise. reading them, they provoke no emotional response or curiosity. not meaning to dismiss something youve asked me to look into but i can only say that in my present experience there's a feeling of this just isn't important. it's hard to word this precisely, but theres a few flavours of experience going on at once:

Everything I think is utterly meaningless and is just a game the mind plays with itself ... so no point going further, thoughts only beyond this point, anything and everything that could be returned is going to fall into the category of "utterly meaningless and is just a game the mind plays with itself" so save the bother

"If I don't serve a purpose, why should I even be? Who am I without my purpose? Can I even BE without purpose?" these barely register as questions in this moment. there's no felt impulse to even really look into it. the thought response isn't verbal as such but it has the flavour of "i dunno, just wait, and see what happens"

conceptualise the whole thoughts & reality conundrum, all the thought stuff is seen/felt to live in its own realm so.. not exactly defeat or giving up but.. like the mental feeling of a carefree shrug. this is all chasing its own tail, no way in or out. eh, what are ya gonna do? "so what do i do now"? if you just don't ask that question at all, then do you need an answer?

the "so what do i do now?" thing seems to have fallen off a cliff. i'll do what i do, when i do it. what's going to happen or not will happen or not. time will tell. brought to mind "it's all thought, all trapped in its own little bubble, all just playing with itself"..."so what do i do?". thoughts slow down. there's a hint of expectation, a very subtle thought "well nothing's going to happen until thinking resumes". interesting theory, lets do the vacuuming. thoughts arise and pass while vacuuming, philosophizing and reflecting happen and dont, a sense of doing-the-vacuuming is felt then not felt when attention is tied up in thoughts instead of focusing on the actions. the vacuuming happens anyway. all the myriad of "simple mindless actions" which are actually absurdly complicated just happen. all the tiny individual muscle movements that make up arm and leg movements happen, spotting dirt happens, picking things up and putting them in the bin happens. sometimes there are thoughts-about-those-things happening at the same time and sometimes not, but the things happening aren't contingent on there being thoughts about them. "those bits are on autopilot", no it's all on autopilot you're just sometimes/often having thoughts about doing in addition to that. the seeing of a thing on the floor happens automatically and instantly, even the fastest nonverbal thought recognitions of "seen a thing on the floor" come ever so slightly after.

Could it be possible you don't fear death too much, but rather you fear not existing? Just throwing it out there.

could be! though i try and pose this question to myself it doesn't seem to fit in the mind properly - how can you even think about "not existing", it's completely outside the possible scope of your experience by definition. you can think about losing or not even getting the chance to have the things you wanted from life, you could think about the pain and suffering of the people you'll have left behind, but those are all thoughts about a future scenario that doesn't exist right now, just the negative feelings they produce (by assuming there is a degree of reality to them) are happening right now - it's like "i didn't get what i wanted out of life" becomes a done deal in this moment, even though it can't be true because life is still going right now. and if indeed you die without getting what you wanted, then it's already too late to care about. if you don't exist, then by definition there is no way any of these things could mean anything to non-existent you in your state of non-existence. i'm not sure that quite resolves the formless gut-feeling uneasiness about death but maybe that's why it remains formless, it doesn't really stand up to close observation in the specific cases. another case of if you counter the story, the mind will just produce another one to explain the problem-feeling. just notice it.

I want you to try out the age-old self-inquiry method with this newfound clarity/skepticism/equanimity:
"Who am I?"
"Who's asking?"
"To whom are these thoughts even occurring right now?"
"Who's the one aware of these thoughts?"
"Who thought that thought just now?"
"Or that one?"

sat with this for an hour or so, very interesting. keep asking these questions trying to home in on identity. various things happen. lots of mental self-images of my face as though i'm looking through it from the inside. this happens a lot, all the time, even eyes open walking around though it's very subtle and easier to miss than when sitting with eyes closed. often it's not even "my" face as it stands now, it's how i looked 20 years ago. there's a lot of pointing to a space inside my head, but then it comes to attention that that felt point of space inside my head is now "in front" of my attention, what's looking at THAT then? points back to the "behind it" area. and what's looking at THAT? it recurs infinitely it seems, until some other thought or distraction comes up, where did that come from? who's seeing it? who's hearing the music in my head? the general feeling is experience becoming.. unstable? fluid? hard boundaries start to melt. the spatial sense which is usually quite rigid bulges and warps or collapses then reforms. sometimes theres a feeling of spaciousness without space. brief flickers of individual sense fields merging into each other. lots of bodily feelings, some strongly fearful, some quite pleasant, vibrations and energy. visual field brightening. a sense of buildup, a noticing of that, a noticing of nonverbal expectations of "something", non-judgement of the arising of expectations. curious. looking forward to seeing what happens next time. noticing expectations, accepting that they're there.

[ty0]

Ok, sounds like you've had glimpses of non-doership and space being an illusion. No questions for you to inquire into this time.

Instead, continue the self-inquiry with this variation: "WHERE am I?" "Where was that thought?" "Where is the one experiencing?" "Where am I experiencing from?"

Along with the "Who" and "Where" questions, there's something else you can try.
Once your mind is reasonably quiet after doing this practice for a while, focus on the sensations appearing. Notice the sensations of the bottom of your foot and the fingers of your hand. Close your eyes and ask: "Where are the sensations?"
If a mental map of your body comes up, note that it's a thought and not information directly from your sensations. Feel the sensations without any thought and ask them where they are?

Next, try looking for the boundaries between sense fields. Where does sensation end and sound begin? Are the patterns you see behind your eyelids appearing in a different "space" as any of your other senses?

[ElliottM]

Tried some where-based inquiry last night and again this morning, space definitely feels stickier/more resistant to being investigated. strong tendency to try and impose space/order on the sense fields like it's disorienting and unpleasant to be without it. noticed i can't really "stop" it happening, just try to notice when it occurs and notice resistance and notice judgement


where am i - again strong tendency for this question to direct attention to the head/eyes. lots and lots of image thoughts/subtle conceptual overlays painting space, distance and direction onto sensations. there's resistance to seeing these space thoughts arise as "getting in the way" of whatever i'm looking for, a sense of trying to get under/behind them, or to get rid of them or not quite knowing what to "do" with them - notice this resistance, let it and the space thoughts be when noted, note that's what's there but it's a thought and not what i'm looking for and just ask again. a sense of "trying" to isolate the raw sensation without it's spatial qualities, this feels difficult or just not do-able in a lot of cases, note that for now.

notice i can feel the back of my head, where am i in relation to that sensation? it has a distinct feeling of direction and distance from the observer sense as though it's known to be "behind", but is simultaneously appearing within my "front facing" field of mental view. become aware of the sensations on the front of the face at the same time, now where am i in relation to both those things? direction becomes unstable, forward/behind competing. doesn't resolve to any location in particular, some frustration felt here.

where is that thought? different types/subjects of thought feel like they're located differently. background music thoughts feel sourceless/directionless, or it's in the same place as "me" with nothing to orient it. internal monologue thoughts feel a bit "up" and forward, like in the forehead or top of head. these often come with somatic impressions, like the thought is pushing in/taking up space or maybe "creating" the very space it occupies as it arises then shrinking and disappearing with its passing, feels like a bubble forming in mental/perceptual space (if that is "space" that is coming into being with the thought, what space does that space itself appear in?). visual image thoughts always seem to be in front of wherever my eyes are pointed. strong, strong association of attention with the eyes in general. trying to "look" at anything always involves movement of the eye muscles, often there's a sense of trying to look back towards the source of looking which causes eye strain tension as though my eyes are literally trying to turn around in my head

more random body and mental sensations, tending towards pleasant energy but fear and tension (tightness of chest, restricted breathing) making an appearance here and there. visual distortions, brightening field of view, occasionally some tiny pinpoints of coloured light appearing and dancing - captured attention away from the questioning, vanishing quickly when that happens.
noticing (relatively) extended periods of quiet, space/visual thoughts continue but verbal narrating drops off for maybe a minute or so at a time after asking who/where. rest in that when it happens, feels peaceful.

look for where body sensations are located, mental body map comes up a lot. try and look past this, where are hand and foot sensations, at the same time? waxing between their relative placement in mentally visualised space and sort of occurring overlapping in the same spot, which is again seen as in the center of view from the felt point of the observer. with some effort auditory thoughts and the whole-sense impression of the closed eye visual field can be added to this perception and be "seen" stacked ontop of/within one another in that centred/in-front-of space point. external sounds resist this more, direction is much more strongly felt there. foot and hand are quite close together in seated posture, trying with sensations that are further apart and this unifying of location also doesn't quite happen to the same degree


returned from sitting and started typing - briefly but clearly noticing the absence of doership in typing just now, beyond the normal experience of automatic muscle memory touchtyping, a sense of watching it all happen automatically, passes and returns to normal quickly

[ElliottM]

Holding off on any more where am i enquiry for now as you suggested, returned to sitting with who am i as an enquiry question

-noticing head/eyes again, noticing that this is just a sensation but otherwise ignoring for now and not trying to focus on this spot, just letting the questions be

-some actual emotionally charged memories/fantasy arising this time, remember just a thought + sensation, attend to the body sensations and they & the memory images dissipate, very easy to handle compared to previously

-more periods of still quiet - now noticing that this isn't exactly mental silence, internal monologue falls away but there is a subtle layer of pre-verbal thoughts bubbling away underneath, often about how the practice is going. some judgement about that, notice judgement. notice the subtle thoughts continuing without trying to get rid of it

-an opening up/softening of space is felt here and there, still present is a subtle thought overlaying visualising a "bigger"/boundaryless space that wraps the rest of the normally felt mental space - like i'm sensing all of the space that is usually behind/above/below the visual field that is normally excluded from the mental screen. but even this mental visualisation is softer/more expansive than normal

-also, noting the visual field and mental space appearing as a flat screen more. often sounds and sensations can be seen/felt as a part of or projected onto this flat screen - does not completely displace the sense of them in "their place" but their perceived location is not solidly fixed there and fluctuates with the borders/separation from other sensations starting to loosen up a bit

-some doubt thoughts arising about the practice but very few compared to previously, also seen quickly as just a thought, relief felt at that and easy to let go

-more pleasant/peaceful feelings and some bouts of the solid fear returning again. feeling the fear as part of the whole experience but not focusing on it directly, some reluctance to have it disappear by turning on it, feeling of "not quite ready". investigate this more directly next time

-tendency to compare/judge vs previous practice sessions and the presence or absence of special states/experiences, notice this as just a judgement thought


in terms of general walking about practices, realising i haven't done or rather haven't had to do any strong emotion work for a couple of days. keeping an eye out for strong emotions but haven't really experienced any bouts of this today outside of seated inquiry practice. that's cool, no problem nothing to solve.

just here and there shifting attention slightly and taking in the visual field as a flat screen. looking at objects as growing/shrinking images instead of nearer/further, this part seems a little difficult, preconceptions exist of what that visual impression means so in a lot of cases it feels contrived (judgement thought) but continuing to practice this way of seeing. unfocusing slightly and taking "the screen" is easier, particularly when not moving. some sensations of "me" moving or being displaced relative to seeing, sometimes causes a vertigo-like feeling of pushed right up against an edge or claustrophbia like "i" am being wrapped up with the borders of the field stretching back behind me

a thought occurs: how big is the visual field? there is actually nothing else you can compare it to, only the objects within the image which aren't static and don't say anything about the field itself. big as what it contains? big as the cup? big as the sky? without relating it to something else it just has nothing you can really call a size

practicing cycling between focusing on objects at different ranges without moving, note the different pictures that are created this way without anything in the environment changing, no other significant observations so far

still difficulties with focusing purely on sensations with eyes closed and not the mental map of the body in space, but did have a moment of "ah the map/location data can still be there, but do recognise that it is not coming from or part of the touch sense and is instead a thought overlay". allow this to be there for now, can't quite manage exclusive focus on the sensation or at least the visualisation reasserts itself constantly when i try which starts to feel overly effortful. keep practicing, keep noting the times when the map is revealed to not match reality when eyes open

[ty0]

a thought occurs: how big is the visual field? there is actually nothing else you can compare it to, only the objects within the image which aren't static and don't say anything about the field itself. big as what it contains? big as the cup? big as the sky? without relating it to something else it just has nothing you can really call a size

What is size? Is a bed bigger than a cup? Can that be proven only with direct experience?

Where does the visual field end? Can you find the boundaries? You may be able to look all the way to one side and see the "end" of your field of view, but that's really just where your flesh covers the eyeball. You can still see beyond that border, it just looks like what's behind your eyelids. This is present at all times whether your eyes are open or closed, your mind just usually filters it out as "useless" information. You can close your eyes to observe this part of your visual field more closely.

With your eyes closed, the boundaries may seem to go much further out, but see if you can actually find these further out boundaries. Where does the visual field end when your eyes are closed?

still difficulties with focusing purely on sensations with eyes closed and not the mental map of the body in space, but did have a moment of "ah the map/location data can still be there, but do recognise that it is not coming from or part of the touch sense and is instead a thought overlay". allow this to be there for now, can't quite manage exclusive focus on the sensation or at least the visualisation reasserts itself constantly when i try which starts to feel overly effortful. keep practicing, keep noting the times when the map is revealed to not match reality when eyes open

Good good. Keep on going with this. If the mental map is very persistent, don't try to force it away. Instead, try asking:
"What's here that's not a thought?"

[ElliottM]

Where does the visual field end? Can you find the boundaries? You may be able to look all the way to one side and see the "end" of your field of view, but that's really just where your flesh covers the eyeball. You can still see beyond that border, it just looks like what's behind your eyelids. This is present at all times whether your eyes are open or closed, your mind just usually filters it out as "useless" information. You can close your eyes to observe this part of your visual field more closely.

With your eyes closed, the boundaries may seem to go much further out, but see if you can actually find these further out boundaries. Where does the visual field end when your eyes are closed?

Ooh this opened up a lot to look at. It's far from clear right now yet but yes I can definitely see this at least with eyes closed, eyes open it's hard to tell if that's the direct experience of seeing or seeing plus a thought image of "out there"

There's a region of very slightly lighter blackness that corresponds to open eye vision but there is still more darkness perceived around it. trying to feel out the borders of this broader area is tricky, the eyes want to turn and look at it. there is a sense (thought) of it ending somewhere but this border can't actually be found - a thought impression of "because you can't look right at it but its there". trying to sort out the mental overlay from the actual experience of seeing - realise that visualisation of "mental space" as a cone of vision has always corresponded to this broader blackness that is still actually just part of the closed eye visual field which is always present. noticing this makes it easier/softer to resolve sensations and sounds and thoughts etc as all appearing overlapping in this same space

doing the hand in front of the eyes exercise with this in mind leads to some interesting twists - lightly holding the borderlessness of sight in mind i'm still generating a mental map image but also sensations in body locations i couldn't possibly be looking at with my eyes still seem to fit into this same field, at the imagined "edges" perhaps but still perceivable as part of the whole of what i'm "looking at" with the minds eye. the whole of the mapped body image can be contained in this space along with its sensations. then a thought of "could i actually be seeing 360 degrees, without any boundaries?" with my eyes closed and without any separate objects for that sight to fall on, how would i know one way or the other?

frustration and doubt returning during "who am i" inquiry, expectation thoughts, anticipating that something should happen. notice these. there's resistance to these thoughts - notice that. who is having these thoughts? whatever hears these thoughts hears all the other thoughts just the same way, the content of these thoughts is not special, the feeling of urgency/importance is just another thought & feeling combo. confronting this tends to cause more "yes but.." thoughts. notice those too. notice the mind turning this loop over and over and over trying to explain the problem it's creating with another thought. these thoughts arising is part of the current experience no more or less important as anything else arising. no more or less the "right" experience. no more or less suitable to notice and investigate.

thats not it, thats not it, thats not it. that's just a thought, that's just a body sensation, that's just a sound, everything perceived is an object. so where is it, how do i find it? just a thought, notice the assumption it contains that there is something to find and someone to find it, notice the frustration it's paired with, drop both, ask again.

thoughts of "this isn't doing anything, what to do now" arise again. notice it as a thought. no more to do than keep noticing what is happening. what's the insight, where to put attention, i don't understand - thought thought thought. nothing to understand, keep looking.

who is asking? who is hearing? thoughts "am i looking right, am i curious enough and involved enough or just coasting, is this how it's done" - all thoughts to be noticed and released. keep asking, keep looking.

feelings like it's back to square one, where's the confidence i had before. these are feelings and thoughts they come and go like they always have, just like the mental states of calm and misery, no experience is going to last forever. whatever is noticing is not changed whether it's doubt or confidence, frustration or elation that's being noticed. doubt can be here and its fine, no need to believe it means anything.

a feeling of separation/distance is noticed between perceiver and perceived, it's implied but can't actually be found, how can you know the perceiver is separate if you can't even locate it to begin with. can the feeling/space of distance-from-me be taken as object of perception itself? maybe, kinda, this doesn't resolve clearly yet. hard to tell if i'm attending to the subtle feeling that arises with the perception or just another separate layer of thinking about it/constructing it on top

lots of turning over the theme of doubt today :) i'll make the concession to doubting to ask you if is this on the right track? i'm noticing these doubts and expectations and not doing anything else with them, noticing that i expect the practice to deliver me some insight or experience, notice that there's judgement about getting it or not, notice that it causes an emotion or resistance and then just going back and asking again, trying to look at every time like it's the first time, put results or worries about doing it properly out of your mind it's all just empty thought just keep doing it. it feels "correct", if not pleasant or satisfying, but "feels correct" is also just a thought so best to just ask and clarify in case i'm being confidently ignorant ;)

[ty0]

"could i actually be seeing 360 degrees, without any boundaries?" with my eyes closed and without any separate objects for that sight to fall on, how would i know one way or the other?

Do you mean 360 degrees as in you're seeing everything? How can you not be seeing everything? Everything you imagine you don't see is just a thought, what more could there be to see than what you already see? We could cut your open-eye FOV to 50 degrees and wouldn't you still be seeing everything? Would the end of the vision field be find-able in that case? Or would it still be some kind of infinite expansive blackness beyond the "main" part of your vision?

Where do your sensations end? You might feel into your fingers and toes, but does sensation really "end" there? Do those sensations have any locality of being at the "end" without thinking about your fingers and toes the extremities of your body? Where does sound end? Can you find the boundary between sound and no-sound? Where do any of your 5 senses end?

Further, where do they even begin? Does your vision render in from one side to the other? Where can you find the starting sides? Is the "center" of your vision any more than an arbitrary designation? Just as the "ends" of your sensations are arbitrarily your fingers and toes, is the center of your vision being the center also an arbitrary designation to help you orient and survive?

The only thing that isn't your 5 senses is thought. The sights you don't see are thought, the sounds you don't hear are thought, the 5-sense experience of other people is just a thought. Are you starting to feel into how infinite and expansive your senses are? What else even is there?

i'll make the concession to doubting to ask you if is this on the right track?

What if I don't answer and relieve you of that doubt? Is doubt ok? Irritation you don't mind, even intense sadness you don't ask me for a solution to. Can you be with doubt? What is doubt? Why the need to get rid of it?

Try this practice:
Sit down. Do nothing.

Asking is doing, doubting is doing, meditating is doing, efforting is doing. Sitting and breathing are also doing, but go ahead and do those. Can you do nothing?

[ElliottM]

Do you mean 360 degrees as in you're seeing everything? How can you not be seeing everything? Everything you imagine you don't see is just a thought, what more could there be to see than what you already see? We could cut your open-eye FOV to 50 degrees and wouldn't you still be seeing everything? Would the end of the vision field be find-able in that case? Or would it still be some kind of infinite expansive blackness beyond the "main" part of your vision?

Where do your sensations end? You might feel into your fingers and toes, but does sensation really "end" there? Do those sensations have any locality of being at the "end" without thinking about your fingers and toes the extremities of your body? Where does sound end? Can you find the boundary between sound and no-sound? Where do any of your 5 senses end?

Further, where do they even begin? Does your vision render in from one side to the other? Where can you find the starting sides? Is the "center" of your vision any more than an arbitrary designation? Just as the "ends" of your sensations are arbitrarily your fingers and toes, is the center of your vision being the center also an arbitrary designation to help you orient and survive?

The only thing that isn't your 5 senses is thought. The sights you don't see are thought, the sounds you don't hear are thought, the 5-sense experience of other people is just a thought. Are you starting to feel into how infinite and expansive your senses are? What else even is there?

I'm starting to feel into this, the scope of senses is definitely widening though it doesn't jump straight to infinite, it's like each little expanded boundary is tested and falls back a bit at a time. i can test these boundaries and find them to not be there but something is reluctant to just take that as definitive of no boundary, just like a little more "ok it doesnt end here but what about here + 1?" and there's a new layer of thought over the top of it defining limits that needs to be sensed and seen as separate to the experience itself. divisions keep softening up and location as well, i can sometimes settle into a sense of just experiencing all senses at once without much or any sorting and labeling, all sort of in the same space and no space with no individual objects and i can feel the mind being uneasy at "nothing for me to do here" so while it's just flowing and changing without effort it can simultaneously feel like stasis and paralysis.

What if I don't answer and relieve you of that doubt? Is doubt ok? Irritation you don't mind, even intense sadness you don't ask me for a solution to. Can you be with doubt? What is doubt? Why the need to get rid of it?

that hit me, why did i ask that? why is doubt the thing that got me more than anything? i sat and considered that for like half an hour then went to bed and kept turning it over, a bunch of answers about beliefs and trusting myself but nothing that felt quite right, eventually i was thinking why couldn't i be with that when i could be with the rest of it > be with what > oh i don't think i actually looked at doubt as an emotion with body sensations and was just treating is as a class/subject of thoughts. feel the body, pressure in the brow between the eyes, downturned mouth, tight chin and neck, heaviness in the upper chest. as soon as i took inventory of all that, that whole complex of energy and tension cracked and loosened and i smiled. thoughts about it still kept going, im pretty sure i carried that into dreams and then thoughts about doubt and doubting that i understood doubt were the first thing to enter my mind when i woke up but it wasn't sticky and i just shook it off. ok to be with now.

Try this practice:
Sit down. Do nothing.

Asking is doing, doubting is doing, meditating is doing, efforting is doing. Sitting and breathing are also doing, but go ahead and do those. Can you do nothing?

I intended to do this first thing in the morning and kept finding reasons to delay, definitely resistance to trying it. But not so bad once i got into it. A few minutes of fine, then a period of restlessness which i expected. Notice the urge to start doing something with this "nothing", like i want to start monitoring my thoughts, or watching the breath, feeling into the body, notice that just don't follow through on any intention. let the mind loose, thoughts wander, do what it wants. just sittin in my chair. got maybe 15 or 20 minutes when the impulse to activity started dying down and i immediately crashed, like just a wave of exhaustion set in as if i hadn't slept all night. didn't quite fall asleep but eyes kept closing and spacing out, going dull. thoughts questioning whether to do something about it or not arise, don't engage. let it be another 15-20 minutes or so before i stop and go make a coffee, notice i carried this exhaustion around even after i got up. did some other stuff then tried again a bit later, similar results but the tiredness set in even faster. afterwards wondered whether it was dissociating/numbing away from just being with doing nothing or whether i just slept really badly, either way it was what it was no need to judge. will try this again tomorrow and see what happens then.

Also had some more strong emotions to deal with today. imagining a situation with a difficult family member, imagining an argument to come, seeing this playing out in my mind and preparing my lines and feeling the reactions like i'm already there, i was stuck in this for a while before recognising it. turned attention to the body sensations, and experienced the tendency for attention to keep pulling back away from body into thoughts at first. after a few repetitions it stuck to the body a bit better. feeling a lot of anger, let that be and shortly it revealed fear behind it. sat with the fear a bit, fear sinks into sadness. sit with sadness for a bit and it starts to just dissipate. then the original thought scenario returns. anger returns, sit with the anger. anger turns into fear. oh this is a cycle! lets make sure. fear turns into sadness. alright this is interesting let's start counting the cycles. anger and the beginning of fear start to sort of melt together into a mostly neutral full body energy that hangs around for a while, the thoughts go away and i resume doing normal stuff.

the original thought pipes up for a moment, then i remembered death. if i died tomorrow would this matter? like at all? then some happy+sad laughing. passes, day back to normal for now.

maybe 10 or 15 minutes later it comes back, caught it at the initial thought + anger and doesn't progress any further this time. the thoughts don't keep coming and the feelings continue as as a slightly nervous body sensation in the background, ok to be there. another 10 minutes or so and it starts to break up/dissolve into relief on its own

[ty0]

Ok Elliott, there's nothing I'd like you to be doing differently or questioning now.
Just keep going and see how things unfold.

[ElliottM]

Done some more work on the same emotional themes as yesterday, i've started counting instances of it coming up. That doesn't stop it but it's becoming an objectified abstract thing more and a personal emotional thing less, almost becoming fun to keep track of.

Noticing also the periods where i'm engaged in something else and that or other issues just don't come to mind, and comparing it to when these thoughts are present. noticing that not worrying about them is the default and the stresses only actually come into existence when im actively thinking about them

Practiced a bit more of doing nothing, ended up sitting for a nice while just looking out the window. Seeing all kinds of things i don't usually notice, the birds and planes and bugs and even the trees right over the back fence that i don't think ive ever properly noticed before. At one point i had an interesting experience where for a brief moment it felt like my centre of self started to sort of stretch/sink outward into the visual field almost becoming one with it. That captured my interest and i think i was subtly reaching for it to happen again which of course it didnt. That's ok, that urge will burn out itself, just another experience to notice

Doing a little bit of inquiry and noticing expectation of getting or needing answers is being felt less intensely. Mostly kinda jiving with the senses for the most part, first just noticing that they're there and sinking in a bit and just trying to let them happen without labeling, feeling quite content to let stuff happen at its own pace right now

[ty0]

Yep, just let it happen. It would do you well to continue to spend time not trying to do anything. Of course, this doesn't mean to purposely avoid doing stuff all the time. Flow with whatever inclination you have, be it inquiring or having ice cream or taking a nap or doing nothing.

What you notice is not in your control. It's like what you remember isn't in your control, remembering just happens. This may be a good time to throw in the inquiry: "What is in my control?" And then you can start ruling things out.

[ElliottM]

Did some noticing of not in my control -thoughts? definitely not, they come and go themselves. sensations too, can't be created or changed or removed or selected out, attention moves on its own, remembering happens on its own, intentions form on their own. inquiring into this shook some things loose i think, im not seeing or remembering it all the time (that happens on its own!) but when i am looking at it i can see "yep, happened by itself" even if the feeling/thought of agency is also there too. got quiet and a bit trippy during inquiry, nothing clear or definite coming from it but no doubt it will keep on unfolding. also just sat for a while and then felt like watching the breath because it was pleasant to do, no effort or goal in mind just enjoying it.

emotion stuff keeps on cycling too, and that's ok. starting to give me at least a little pause on the idea that "i'm doing it", but it's being done either way :)

[ElliottM]

Mostly more emotions today, the same situation and themes keep replaying but going a bit deeper this time. There's more than just fear and anger and sadness here. Darker things, hatred, bitterness, grief and loss and trauma. A desire to punish, to return cruelty and abuse dealt to me in kind. Not pleasant things, i dont likefeeling them, or seeing them in myself at all, but at the same time it's fine. They're there. It's not a case of enduring or being with them like earlier bouts of emotion, if anything it's a slightly exasperated frustration at their repetition and persistence rather than anything to do with the experience itself. It comes, i remember, then i forget and get mind identified again and wrapped up in the feelings and thoughts, then remember again and so on. A little bit tired of the whole thought circus and sort of wishing it would move itself along. But not in a pressured helpless way looking for an escape, more just yes ok i've seen this is there anything new here yet? Giving it space to just be there, not quite embracing it but accepting its right to be there at least. Letting all this carry on, it pushes its way into mind in quiet times so it seems it's not the time for inquiry right now. But there's always a degree of release available - the doomed and dreadful feeling of permanence is gone, the hooks are still there but they don't stick quite as hard, inevitably it will return to mind that these are just thoughts and it will all pass soon enough and that's enough that it doesn't really make me suffer significantly.

Also notable is this kind of thought storm would previously also call up a lot of doubts thoughts about the practice, myself, failure, "progress" etc etc. Some of those still filter up but they're seen and dropped immediately - it doesn't actually mean any of that, just thoughts, whatever this is it isn't linear and whatever is appearing right now is what i'm dealing with right now. Everything seems to go in cycles and no doubt we'll continue treading and retreading territory digging a little deeper each time. That's fine. Today has some intense emotions, and perhaps tomorrow will be sublime calm, it's happened before and can happen again so no need to predict or plan or worry about what might not be there later. Patience for the mind that wants to keep turning this over from every angle but don't actively engage and enable it. don't worry that you were wrapped up in it for an hour but when it's seen consciously take the opportunity to consciously drop it and reinforce the pattern of see & feel & let go