Shiny koala seeking liberation

[shinykoala]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no construct that persists through time and can be identified as "me". That what appears to be that construct is in fact a (convincing) illusion, apparently maintained through believing thoughts that reference that "self" without ever truly fact-checking them.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for guidance on how to see through that apparent illusion for myself. I sense the truth of it, and I have looked and not found it, and yet some identification with a self appears to remain.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect a guide to point me towards ways that I might be inadvertently avoiding some areas in my inquiry. What I am not questioning, without realising it? What is it that appears to still bind me to a belief in a self?

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have done a fair amount of inquiry of various forms. I have also practiced meditation, though not for long and not with strict regularity. I have been on a few meditation retreats.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[ty0]

Hi shinykoala, let me know your name if you want me to address you by it. I'm Tyler and welcome to LU. I hope you've read the LU disclaimer and FAQ.

That there is no construct that persists through time and can be identified as "me". That what appears to be that construct is in fact a (convincing) illusion, apparently maintained through believing thoughts that reference that "self" without ever truly fact-checking them.

Well, have you fact-checked that the "self" is an illusion? Why do you think this is the case? Is it because others say so?

I expect a guide to point me towards ways that I might be inadvertently avoiding some areas in my inquiry. What I am not questioning, without realising it? What is it that appears to still bind me to a belief in a self?

Who is the you that seems to have the capacity to believe in a self? What does it even mean for you to be bound to a belief?


Most importantly, why are you on this path? You've put an 11 for willingness, where does that determination come from? What do you really want out of this?

[shinykoala]

Hi Tyler, thank you for replying, and you can simply call me SK :) I have indeed red the disclaimer and FAQ.

Well, have you fact-checked that the "self" is an illusion? Why do you think this is the case? Is it because others say so?

I would say I have at least attempted to fact-check it for myself, but I may be influenced by what I have heard or read. Speaking from my own experience, I can see with a decent level of clarity that much of what I would identify with are thoughts. The most obvious would be memories or descriptions of "who I am", such as the country I was born in, my profession, etc. There's a sense of those arising "in awareness" (it's difficult to put words that feel true, so take my words as approximations...). I have looked and looked, but there's definitely still a sense of a "self" I would say, though now I would describe it as more around body sensations ("me" is "these sensations around the head and chest"), as opposed to being about descriptive thoughts. When I ask myself "Where am I?", my attention goes to those body sensations, not to thoughts.

Most importantly, why are you on this path? You've put an 11 for willingness, where does that determination come from? What do you really want out of this?

I don't know whether I ever made the intentional decision to be on it. Some time ago I had an experience which was very subtle (no fireworks) but which somehow appeared to clarify something. After that experience there was no doubt in me that there was much more to life than I had been experiencing up to that point, and there was no doubt that I would then dedicate my life to going more deeply into it. Although paradoxically that didn't feel like a turning point, as it felt I had been orienting towards that all along. It felt more like a recognition of a pre-existing orientation which I had been previously unaware/unconscious of, and of which I was now conscious. A change in perspective of sorts. So there's that which is giving me an ever-present determination (even "determination" doesn't feel quite right). But there is also an aspect of wanting to truly love, truly experience, to be truly present. And that I think may not have the purest foundations :) When I look into it at times it reveals itself as profoundly ego-driven; wanting to get something that a part of me think will finally get it the love / recognition / being seen that it has always wanted.

Who is the you that seems to have the capacity to believe in a self? What does it even mean for you to be bound to a belief?

I will inquire into this today and write later.

[ty0]

(it's difficult to put words that feel true, so take my words as approximations...)

Are there any words that feel true to you? Can you share them with me?

I have looked and looked, but there's definitely still a sense of a "self" I would say, though now I would describe it as more around body sensations ("me" is "these sensations around the head and chest"), as opposed to being about descriptive thoughts. When I ask myself "Where am I?", my attention goes to those body sensations, not to thoughts.

But you can see that you are not your body sensations, yes? If I chop your hands off, your hands' sensations would be gone. If we turned off all of your body sensations with some kind of drug, would you still be here?

But there is also an aspect of wanting to truly love, truly experience, to be truly present. And that I think may not have the purest foundations :) When I look into it at times it reveals itself as profoundly ego-driven; wanting to get something that a part of me think will finally get it the love / recognition / being seen that it has always wanted.

What if I say that awakening will not allow you to truly love, truly experience, and be truly present? Would you still want it? What's missing from your current experience that you would do something so drastic such as seeking enlightenment? It sounds like you don't even know what you're looking for.

If possible, I want a more raw reason why you are on this path. Why are you doing this? If your mind comes up with a "because I want THAT thing", then ask again, "why do I want THAT thing?" Like a child who asks why the grass is green and why the sky is blue, ask yourself why you want this until you get to the bottom of it. Have fun :)

[shinykoala]

> Are there any words that feel true to you? Can you share them with me?

I would say there are no words that feel true to me, but there are words that I can write so long as I don't think about it :). I paused after writing this last sentence, my mind trying to get a hold of what's in my experience, and trying to find the words to express it to you. It cannot. So I'll just write. Right now, I can hear a river. I can hear cars in the distance. Birds. I can hear the wind brushing against the trees, I can feel a light breeze. There are a few thoughts arising, too. Recent memories, what I will be doing later today. When I ask myself "Who am I?", the attention goes to the senses. When I think of memories of "my life", it's a bit as if I was hearing someone else's story. Not quite. Someone I am deeply intimate with, but it's not quite me. There's curiosity. Sometimes those stories can seemingly trigger bodily responses (e.g. sadness, anger, etc). I ask "Who am I?" again. I can feel sensations in the body, the sounds.

> But you can see that you are not your body sensations, yes? If I chop your hands off, your hands' sensations would be gone. If we turned off all of your body sensations with some kind of drug, would you still be here?

Yes, I can see that. I have investigated that in some ways, going through my body area by area and asking myself "Am I X?". It's as if that has loosened my identification with the body to a large extent. I would say now it feels less "physical" and more "emotional". When I ask "Who am I?" and my attention goes to, say, tension in my body, there is a sense of that's "me", but the sense feels more tied to the emotional content I associate with those sensations, rather than the sensations themselves. It's as if the sensation are standing for some sort of "ball of emotional gunk" that is "me".

> What if I say that awakening will not allow you to truly love, truly experience, and be truly present? Would you still want it? What's missing from your current experience that you would do something so drastic such as seeking enlightenment? It sounds like you don't even know what you're looking for.
> If possible, I want a more raw reason why you are on this path. Why are you doing this? If your mind comes up with a "because I want THAT thing", then ask again, "why do I want THAT thing?" Like a child who asks why the grass is green and why the sky is blue, ask yourself why you want this until you get to the bottom of it. Have fun :)

I would say yes, I would still want it, although I have questioned this at times. There's a part of me that simply wants out. I want out. I want to see reality as it is. Whatever that may be. I've been confronted times and times again to the convincing illusions my mind appears to be capable of building, and I do not want to spend my life in those illusions. I want to see what's there. I want to know what's there.

I'll keep asking :)

[ty0]

Hi SK, first have a look at this video on how to use the Quote function so your responses are easier to read hahahah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

When I ask "Who am I?" and my attention goes to, say, tension in my body, there is a sense of that's "me", but the sense feels more tied to the emotional content I associate with those sensations, rather than the sensations themselves. It's as if the sensation are standing for some sort of "ball of emotional gunk" that is "me".

Ok, let's take this a step further. So you say your identification is less with thoughts and sensations, but more with emotions. Investigate this: What is an emotion?

I've been confronted times and times again to the convincing illusions my mind appears to be capable of building, and I do not want to spend my life in those illusions. I want to see what's there. I want to know what's there.

I'll keep asking :)

Hahahah I have the same response. Keep asking. Why do you want to see what's there? Why do you want to know what's there?
Also, why do you assume there's something there that you don't already see? How do you know that there's a reality beyond what you experience?

[shinykoala]

Hi Tyler, my apologies for the quotes. I wrote this up in a separate editor, copy pasted and submitted, and only realised after the fact the mistake in formatting, but couldn't figure out how to edit the post :)

I am trying to get into the cadence of writing every day, so while I am still investigating the questions you asked me, I'll write either way. Thank you for assisting me in this inquiry :)

Ok, let's take this a step further. So you say your identification is less with thoughts and sensations, but more with emotions. Investigate this: What is an emotion?

It does seem like emotions are a combination of thoughts and sensations? I am not completely sure, but it does seem like it goes "sensation" => "labelling" (thought). Although it does seem like some sensations are more pleasurable than others, and that gets associated to more pleasant or less pleasant emotions? For example I don't recall experiencing what I would describe as "anger" while feeling blissful sensations.

Hahahah I have the same response. Keep asking. Why do you want to see what's there? Why do you want to know what's there?
Also, why do you assume there's something there that you don't already see? How do you know that there's a reality beyond what you experience?

I started writing a reply to this a few times and back-tracked. Why do I want to see what's there? My immediate reaction is I want to say "well, duh, why wouldn't I?". There's curiosity. What's actually there? But at times there's also a borderline desperation, usually (perhaps always) tied to a sense of suffering, and of that suffering being seemingly generated by thoughts, from experience. I assume there's something I don't already see because of two things: (1) an intuitive sense that something is "off" in my experience, I'd say it's a subtle (or sometimes not so subtle) sense of "disconnect", and (2) if I inquire into aspects of my experience, it usually becomes evident rather quickly that what I was experiencing before the inquiry started sinking was some sort of thought layer. I know there's a reality beyond what I experience because I've seen time and time again how much the tone of a moment can change seemingly based on what my mind is super-imposing on it. I want to see through that. I want to see what's actually happening in every moment, without that mind filter, or at least I want to see the mind filter clearly, so I am fully aware of its presence and effects.

[ty0]

I want to see through that. I want to see what's actually happening in every moment, without that mind filter, or at least I want to see the mind filter clearly, so I am fully aware of its presence and effects.

Why do you want to see through it? What's the point? You seem quite aware of its presence and effects.

Ok, let's take this a step further. So you say your identification is less with thoughts and sensations, but more with emotions. Investigate this: What is an emotion?

It does seem like emotions are a combination of thoughts and sensations?

So you identify with emotions more than thoughts and sensations. But emotions themselves are just a mixture of thoughts and sensations. So where is the identification here? Do you really feel like "you" are somewhere in these arbitrary thoughts and emotions?
When there is identifying, who is the one doing the identifying? Can you find the one who's getting caught up in the thoughts?

Can you give examples of when the urge to "wake up" is the strongest? How do you feel in those moments?

[shinykoala]

Hi Tyler, I just wanted to touch base and say I was unable to reply today and may be unable tomorrow and Sunday as well, however I will be back with the daily posts on Monday. My apologies for that. Have a wonderful week-end :)

[shinykoala]

I have a bit of time now so I will write.

Why do you want to see through it? What's the point? You seem quite aware of its presence and effects.

It does not feel complete. I am aware as to the presence and effects of the mind filter only to some degree. It is experienced as a pendulum swing of sort, a constant movement of forgetting and coming back, though each time with seemingly a bit more seeing through. It does not feel even close to complete.

So you identify with emotions more than thoughts and sensations. But emotions themselves are just a mixture of thoughts and sensations. So where is the identification here? Do you really feel like "you" are somewhere in these arbitrary thoughts and emotions?
When there is identifying, who is the one doing the identifying? Can you find the one who's getting caught up in the thoughts?

I must investigate this further. It does feel as if they relate to a "me". I can feel quite intense emotions which I cannot quite describe but would associate to a sort of emotional soup saying "you are fundamentally flawed", and that can feel (on an "energetic" level) very personal. It doesn't express as thoughts, it's just a sort of energetic soup.

With regard to who is doing the identifying, I must investigate.

Can you give examples of when the urge to "wake up" is the strongest? How do you feel in those moments?

Strangely enough as of late the urge to wake up has seemed to slowly die away. At first I was concerned because I thought I was giving up without having taken even the first step, but there's a sense of "rightness" to it that I cannot ignore. it is confusing if I think about it, but it feels right. The urge to wake up seem like a fading memory, although there is still a drive operating in me, leading me to sign up on this forum, for instance. But it feels more flow-y than grasp-y / urgent. It feels gentle.

[ty0]

I can feel quite intense emotions which I cannot quite describe but would associate to a sort of emotional soup saying "you are fundamentally flawed", and that can feel (on an "energetic" level) very personal.

Are you fundamentally flawed?
What's wrong with you?

[shinykoala]

Are you fundamentally flawed?
What's wrong with you?

On a conscious level there's nothing wrong with me. But when I am still I often get in touch with a tension in my upper-body which I interpret as a sense of "wrongness" / "offness". It's very felt, it's not in thoughts.

[shinykoala]

Are you fundamentally flawed?
What's wrong with you?

On a conscious level there's nothing wrong with me. But when I am still I often get in touch with a tension in my upper-body which I interpret as a sense of "wrongness" / "offness". It's very felt, it's not in thoughts.

[ty0]

What's wrong with the tension? Can you stay with it without doing anything about it? Can you accept it? Can you embrace it?

[shinykoala]

What's wrong with the tension? Can you stay with it without doing anything about it? Can you accept it? Can you embrace it?

I think I can. I've been trying to give it attention and welcome. It's been a bit difficult at times, but it's felt as if that attention is slowly having an effect, and the tension can often release by itself without justification (and sometimes it's quite strong, also without justification).