Help with the selfing please

[Agroundagain]

Hey Jon,

Sorry just a small note that I have been distracted by a friend's visit.

I'll message again tomorrow

I hope you are well and enjoying some sun!

Thanks
Angela

[JonathanR]

Hi Angela

Yes, great weather! Phew! We waited for it and finally it’s here.

Ok I will check in tomorrow.

All best

Jon

[Agroundagain]

Hi Jon,

Goodness, where did the time go!? Sorry I am late replying.

I'd like you to know that I am most keen on continuing though I have been distracted with friends, my children etc.

So you were asking about the below - which i have copied and pasted it, as I couldnt load it on the same page -

"What you could try, when you detect doubtful or confused thoughts, is to say to them “gently, gently, come in and let me see you, make yourself at home. Tell me what’s up”. Like the one about bypassing. Find out what the feeling or sensation is that goes with such doubts."

I haven't had much joy with this, I'm afraid. It introduced a big story and I got very anxious.

So - when I was already anxious the other day - about money. I tried to feel into the sensation and I couldn't' because I was too caught in the story 'about not feeding the kids' - which is not really on the cards yet! At the time I really believed it was real... It has been lurking for awhile if Im honest. So what I did do that seemed to work was something
David Bingham talks about - which is to reject the minds invitation to the story. So I just shut it down. I decided that believing it wasn't even part of the issue, I didn't have to work out whether it was true, yes maybe it was true, but to stop it there, I would just stop it before it got hold.

It worked but I coudln't investigate the sensation without the story competing for air.

But is this just denial? Bypassing? Can you see I'm even doing it now!! But surely there is a difference between doubts that surface as bypassing and actual bypassing?

What I did have some movement with was, another time, when I was anxious and feeling judged, by everyone. I stood back all looked at everything together, not as individual issues or moments, but has the general feeling that was hovering about and I could see myself as the judge, that it was me telling the story about everyone. Everything just crumbled. I have done this before when I have felt frustration with people and seen it's me. It doens't produce sadness it just feels clear.

Does any of that make sense?
Thanks for your patience!
all the best - in the sun!!
Angela

[Agroundagain]

Good morning Jon,

I thought I would add something weird that's been happening.
To celebrate my 16 yo finishing her GCSEs we went to Venice for 4 days - a long planned trip, which was very nice.
All the water around, of course moves, as do the boats. I am not unacquainted with this movement as I lived on a boat for 5 years but of course on land in Venice you don't move.
Weirdly though, I felt myself moving up and down with the water, dizzy as if I was on a boat. Not awful or upsetting.
We got back yesterday and I'm still moving. It is not unlike the falling sensation I have sometimes, which happens when I feel into sensation but it's all the time.
It might actually just be a physical thing. Maybe I have vertigo!

Anyway I hope you are very well.
All the best
Angela

[Agroundagain]

Good Morning Jon,

Hope you are well and it's not bucketing down where you are - like here!!

I was wondering if perhaps I've lost you?
No problem if you are busy - as I know already that is the case. But I just thought I'd check if you are still there.

All the best
Angela

[JonathanR]

Hi Angela

No you haven’t lost me. The forum was sometimes inaccessible and I tried to post to you but it doesn’t seem to have shown up. Then I’ve also been away in a retreat this weekend.

Here now though. Let’s pick up here?

So - when I was already anxious the other day - about money. I tried to feel into the sensation and I couldn't' because I was too caught in the story 'about not feeding the kids' - which is not really on the cards yet! At the time I really believed it was real... It has been lurking for awhile if Im honest. So what I did do that seemed to work was something
David Bingham talks about - which is to reject the minds invitation to the story. So I just shut it down. I decided that believing it wasn't even part of the issue, I didn't have to work out whether it was true, yes maybe it was true, but to stop it there, I would just stop it before it got hold.

It worked but I coudln't investigate the sensation without the story competing for air.

This was a while ago now but I suggest that it is possible to be with sensation and the thought too. Isn’t the sensation of anxiety intimately linked with the thought?

I’d notice them both, be inquisitive. Just accept the package deal and go into the sensation. The thought story can go on loudly. It doesnt have to be believed but it can be allowed to appear, be recognised, seen.

But is this just denial? Bypassing? Can you see I'm even doing it now!! But surely there is a difference between doubts that surface as bypassing and actual bypassing?

Yes there is.

“Bypassing” can be a story too. It has to be up to you to say whether you’re being honest or not. Why not trust your instinct? It sounds as though perhaps you have read or heard about “bypassing” from somewhere or somebody and now doubt yourself?

Another thing, bypassing can and may happen sometimes. So what? If it’s recognised as such it can be dropped.


Love

Jon

[Agroundagain]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for getting back to me. I hope your time away was lovely!

Yes I have found also the site sometimes is down or I loose my post. But it's such a great service and your help invaluable ...

I’d notice them both, be inquisitive. Just accept the package deal and go into the sensation. The thought story can go on loudly. It doesnt have to be believed but it can be allowed to appear, be recognised, seen.

Yes I must say i find it very difficult to look at the thought and not get caught. I had a moment of success late last week with my daughter. I was upset with aggie for not reading my texts & instead messaging her dad about her win at sports day. I wrote her a message saying I was upset - then thought that I shouldn’t be writing something from this vantage. It was about me!! So, though hesitating a lot, I deleted it.

I saw how this was upsetting - rejection of daughter, but as her mum I shouldn’t act out about it. But I was still upset, consumed with hurt & rejection, in competition with her dad, & not knowing what to do with it. I could see also this rejection was mine and not something she was doing.

I then looked to see myself, in an upset place b4, with my other daughter & remembered how I was consumed for hours but got over it & now have nothing left of that emotion. So could see that on this evidence my current feeling would pass. But this was an intellectual exercise - wasn't it? But useful.

Though - It didn’t help the anger subside but it did help me try to disengage from the story - I could see the story as senseless because eventually, it would fade. It was just pointing to my hurt. So from there I could go to sensation.

Weirdly when I felt the tightness in my chest subside, in less than a minute, my mind wanted you to go back & check in with the story, check if it was still there, as if it would have changed. I understood straight away, I would just reignite it. So I didn’t. I found it amusing that I was so ready to trick myself back into the hook of the story.

Would your advice to be to go back to the story? the thought? to let it reignite?

Would it be better to have gone into the story of rejection - which is a deep wound... Though not something that pops up much anymore, I have done lots of work on it why, I guess, I can see it when it's affecting my interactions.

“Bypassing” can be a story too. It has to be up to you to say whether you’re being honest or not. Why not trust your instinct? It sounds as though perhaps you have read or heard about “bypassing” from somewhere or somebody and now doubt yourself?

I had a great interaction with Vince, I think he is on here. He does meet ups and 1-1s. I was caught in a story, a lovely story about being grateful - and he pointed it out - bypassing. It was very helpful because it helped me to come out of the story and into sensation. i can see it happening all the time when I am mind identifying and think I am seeing clearly. When I tell a story to myself about how I am or what I feel. And then get good feelings from that. I see myself looking through concepts and not realising. This is what I mean but perhaps I'm wrong.

Thanks so much
Angela

[JonathanR]

Hi Angela

Forum seems to be working fine again!

I had a great interaction with Vince, I think he is on here. He does meet ups and 1-1s. I was caught in a story, a lovely story about being grateful - and he pointed it out - bypassing. It was very helpful because it helped me to come out of the story and into sensation. i can see it happening all the time when I am mind identifying and think I am seeing clearly. When I tell a story to myself about how I am or what I feel. And then get good feelings from that. I see myself looking through concepts and not realising. This is what I mean but perhaps I'm wrong.

No. I don’t think you’re wrong and bypassing can happen and you’ve explained it more thoroughly now. And Vince is great.
This bypassing tends to be an affliction where there’s a thought that “I’m above things now” (or similar). Yes it’s a form of identification with being somehow a “spiritual” entity that doesn’t have a self any more and doesn’t have to experience (particularly) unpleasant things. But this is a confusion to do with a subtle, more invidious identification as a “no self” entity. Yes, it is conceptualisation.


The answer is still to look at experience, thoughts, sensations, sufficiently thoroughly that it just becomes obvious that there never was a self. At that point the preoccupation with conceptualising about it falls away either very quickly or more slowly, but once it’s obvious that there’s no self it’s like the ridge pole of a circus tent is just taken out.

It is possible, likely even, that some idea of “me” will come knocking at the door, but against the clarity that there never was an entity this idea no longer has traction. Very soon it’s seen again, not as a narrative about being spiritual but directly seen that there’s no separation, there’s no separate self. There’s Life but not a “my life”.


Love from Jon

[Agroundagain]

Hey Jon

Thanks for the below

Yes it’s a form of identification with being somehow a “spiritual” entity that doesn’t have a self any more and doesn’t have to experience (particularly) unpleasant things.

I guess the only difference for me, is I wasn't using it in the spiritual sense, it just snuck in as thinking I get it - whatever it is - like being grateful to be alive, thinking this was somehow getting it. But maybe that was thought reflecting a sense of bliss i was feeling and I should have just stayed there!

Though today, I'm not getting it. I'm totally wrapped in thoughts and feel more than ever quite mind identified and don't know how to come out of it. I feel like, as with the above, I have been lying to myself about being present at all... and I'm completely caught up in thoughts. Saying this is of course proof I am.

sufficiently thoroughly that it just becomes obvious that there never was a self. At that point the preoccupation with conceptualising about it falls away either very quickly or more slowly, but once it’s obvious that there’s no self it’s like the ridge pole of a circus tent is just taken out.

This - for me is making me think more. It a train of thought I get caught in looking for the sense of self. Thinking about it and cross eyed!


Waaaah!

It is sunny though!

Thanks
Angela

[JonathanR]

Hi Angela

My apologies for a long delay. So many things were taking my time and attention. I do apologise.

Though today, I'm not getting it. I'm totally wrapped in thoughts and feel more than ever quite mind identified and don't know how to come out of it. I feel like, as with the above, I have been lying to myself about being present at all... and I'm completely caught up in thoughts. Saying this is of course proof I am

In what you’ve written here what stands out is the idea, the belief that there is a “you”, an Angela, that is not getting something.

More, that this self is trapped in thoughts. That this entity lies about being present and that there is proof of there is such a lying entity through the words that are said.


There isn’t this “separate” entity. Never has been, never will be.


This whole illusion is built on the habitual assumption that “I am here, inside a body or inside a mind” . This is not true. But it isn’t for me to persuade you that there isn’t a fixed or separate self. It has to be noticed properly that it’s a mental fabrication, a story, all about a “me”.


With love

Jon

[Agroundagain]

Hi Jon

Thanks for getting back.

But it isn’t for me to persuade you that there isn’t a fixed or separate self. It has to be noticed properly that it’s a mental fabrication, a story, all about a “me”.

You know, I understand and have experienced it but I am often caught and can't see it a lot of the time. And I see my being caught as evidence that I am not experiencing it.

The sounds and sensations truly penetrate without interpretation. But the mind chatter challenges not any of this but is load internal criticism and pulls me in. If I stay with sensations I'm ok but if I look at the thought I'm gone.

Years ago, as I said, I saw that I had made myself up, that we all had. That I wasn't in here. My movement now is not about outcomes but what seems natural. But the above is screaming at me.

I think if I had truly seen through self I wouldn't be here.

There are other issues that I feel are too much, too intimate, to put down here on this chat.
I understand you are too busy but I feel that I would benefit more from a video call.
Unfortunately the looking at the words seem just words and I feel I'm going around in circles.

Shall I reach out for someone who can work with me via video chats?

Sorry to be painful and have wasted your time

Thanks
Angela

[JonathanR]

Hey Angela

You haven’t wasted my time at all. It’s true that I am very busy and cannot commit to video guiding right now. It’s a pity but yes, there are other guides who probably will offer video guiding, so please feel free to reach out to them.

And if you later feel that you want to work with me again just get back in touch.

Much love and best wishes

Jon

[Agroundagain]

Thanks Jon - Will do
It's a great thing you so busy with your art!
Thanks very much for your help
All the best
Angela